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Ryuujin posted:So looking at Elves and Monks. Elf starts with 30 speed, instead of 25, can have 35 with an Elf feat at 1st level. Then at level 9 they can grab Elf Step which lets them make two 5 foot Steps when they Step. The Monk can get Tiger Stance. One of the things Tiger Stance does is make it so your Steps are 10 feet. I am wondering how these interact. Would an Elf with both mean that if they use the Elf Step action they would Step twice for 10 feet each? It is a pity the Elf Step is an action rather than just letting you Step twice whenever you take the Step action. Otherwise it might have combined well with the Monk feat Winding Flow which is an action that lets you do two of Step, Stride or Stand. Nothing official, but since Elf Step calls out a distance unlike other abilities, I'm gonna say no, it doesn't combine with Tiger Stance. Ryuujin posted:For a highly mobile build I don't know if Tiger Stance for the 10ft Step or Crane Stance for the slightly lower Long/High Jump DCs and slightly increased jumping distances would be better. There's a lot more to consider here. Crane can't use weapons at all, and the advanced Crane feat is a defensive AoO-type reaction. It also can't be stance blended. Tiger, on the other hand, is a pile of extra damage and the advanced Tiger feat does a free shove on-hit. So, it's more of a "Do I want to sit in the thick of things and distract enemies?" for Crane, and a "Do I want to pound dudes in the face?" for Tiger.
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Aug 15, 2019 21:28
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Kylra posted:Velociraptors in the Bestiary have feathers and are very birdlike. They're fuckin adorable 
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Aug 15, 2019 21:52
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Another edge cost for two weapon fighting thing is it takes up one of your investment slots (either for the rings or the extra weapon). Between two weapons and armor that leaves 7 slots instead of 8 unless you take the general feat for two more, though I can't imagine this would make a huge difference.Blockhouse posted:They're fuckin adorable
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Aug 16, 2019 01:26
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Weapons don't require investment
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Aug 16, 2019 03:23
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Thumbing through my rulebook, and I thought that one of the changes from the playtest was that they were getting rid of the +Level bonus to proficiency. It strikes me as strange that once you hit mid-to-higher levels, the single most impactful thing for your character is going from Untrained to Trained in a skill. For example (and correct me if I'm wrong), let's play through this scenario. You're level 10 and trying to do something you are untrained in. The GM sets the DC, and after you look through your sheet, you calculate you have a 60% chance of failure (so maybe a DC 15 check, and you have +2 to your roll from whatever). If you become trained in that skill, you go from +2 to +14, and the only way you can fail a DC 15 check is from a natural 1. You go from a 60% chance of failure, to only a 5% chance of failure. Is it just me, or does that seem bonkers?
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Aug 16, 2019 03:51
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Duct Tape posted:Thumbing through my rulebook, and I thought that one of the changes from the playtest was that they were getting rid of the +Level bonus to proficiency. It strikes me as strange that once you hit mid-to-higher levels, the single most impactful thing for your character is going from Untrained to Trained in a skill. Yes that is sort of the goal of the system. They're adding a way to take it out as a variant in a later book, but that's just lame.
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Aug 16, 2019 03:54
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Toshimo posted:Yes that is sort of the goal of the system. I'm just worried it means that as you level, more and more options get locked away from your character. The barbarian needs to smooth talk his way past the guards? Don't even try because you have a 60% chance of critically failing and a 5% chance of success. Similarly, the bard has a 60% chance of critically succeeding and only a 5% chance of failing, so why bother even rolling? Just assume they pass and move on. Granted this is coming from someone who has never played Pathfinder, and is coming from 5e, where your modifiers tend to stay (relatively) constrained. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how you balance stuff late game when challenges seem to be either autopass or autofail. edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to poo poo on PF2 or anything like that. I'm genuinely more excited about this RPG than I have been for any release in the last couple years. I'm just curious how to properly balance things, as I'll likely have to be the ambassador for this system to my group of friends, and they all have even less experience with PF than I do. Duct Tape fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 04:01
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Red Metal posted:Weapons don't require investment
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Aug 16, 2019 04:05
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Duct Tape posted:I'm just worried it means that as you level, more and more options get locked away from your character. The barbarian needs to smooth talk his way past the guards? Don't even try because you have a 60% chance of critically failing and a 5% chance of success. Similarly, the bard has a 60% chance of critically succeeding and only a 5% chance of failing, so why bother even rolling? Just assume they pass and move on. See the feat Untrained Improvisation, which gives +level to all untrained skills and seems like an obvious pick for 99% of characters by level 8 or so. It's so broad and obvious that I get serious vibes from it of "we wanted to put this into the default rules, but the grogs would scream too much".
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Aug 16, 2019 04:08
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Duct Tape posted:Granted this is coming from someone who has never played Pathfinder, and is coming from 5e, where your modifiers tend to stay (relatively) constrained. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how you balance stuff late game when challenges seem to be either autopass or autofail. Also it's generally pretty easy to get trained in a lot of skills while still mastering one or two.
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Aug 16, 2019 04:16
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Also 8 legendary + 20 level + 6 abil mod still only puts you at 34. You're going to need some serious buffs to the degree I don't think you can buff it high enough to get that 60% critical success rate on DC40.
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Aug 16, 2019 04:20
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Duct Tape posted:I'm just worried it means that as you level, more and more options get locked away from your character. The barbarian needs to smooth talk his way past the guards? Don't even try because you have a 60% chance of critically failing and a 5% chance of success. Similarly, the bard has a 60% chance of critically succeeding and only a 5% chance of failing, so why bother even rolling? Just assume they pass and move on. Yeah, the idea is definitely that you have stuff you are Not Good At. If you really feel like you have to be passable at everything, there's a feat for that. And there's a general feat to train more skills. Otherwise, why is your Barb trying to Diplomacy? Does he not have Intimidation? Or Stealth, or Deception? Can you find no physical way to bypass the guards with your Athletics? Have you tried showing them your interpretative dance with Impressive Performance? I mean, if there comes up a situation where you haven't taken any of the 5 relevant skills, or either of the 2 general feats that cover for you, maybe your duder is Just Bad At This, and that's ok.
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Aug 16, 2019 04:36
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Okay, cool. Thanks for the clarifications. A lot of this is coming from ignorance of never having actually run this game and me just making assumptions. Good to know that despite things looking a bit odd from my point of view, it all comes together. And speaking of ignorance of Pathfinder, anyone have a recommendation on a Let's Play of PF2 aimed at someone like me? Reading the rules is one thing, and it's entirely a different thing to see it in action.
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Aug 16, 2019 05:15
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Ryuujin posted:So looking at Elves and Monks. Elf starts with 30 speed, instead of 25, can have 35 with an Elf feat at 1st level. Then at level 9 they can grab Elf Step which lets them make two 5 foot Steps when they Step. The Monk can get Tiger Stance. One of the things Tiger Stance does is make it so your Steps are 10 feet. I am wondering how these interact. Would an Elf with both mean that if they use the Elf Step action they would Step twice for 10 feet each? It is a pity the Elf Step is an action rather than just letting you Step twice whenever you take the Step action. Otherwise it might have combined well with the Monk feat Winding Flow which is an action that lets you do two of Step, Stride or Stand. From making a Monk during the playtest, I went for Crane, because I was going for a lot of jump distance and height in a fully movement-opped build, for a more practical build I'd definitely go Tiger, especially with Winding Flow. I had great fun with a 14th level movement-opped Monk, but the majority of the feats I spent on it were hopelessly wasted, because I outclassed basically all the movement challenges in the adventure with any two or three of the 8 or so movement-related feats and items I had. The whole rest of the party was also gnomes and halflings, so one of the plans we had for the infiltration mission (assuming it had been break in-type infiltration) was just shoving everyone into the Bag of Holding and yeeting herself up a wall.
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Aug 16, 2019 09:10
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Just staring into the raw mechanical workings of Pathfinder is in some ways a helpful thing, but don't forget that adventuring is a team sport. If between you and three other characters there is a gap in the things you are capable, at some point it is because you wanted your group to not be capable of something. Balance between classes seems way better improved this time around for sure. I won't really be passing judgment on things I don't like too harshly until I actually get this thing to the table, but so far there are so many great improvements. If some aspect of the game worries you, play the class that is good at it. Worried your character won't be able to make some skill check at really high levels you won't be playing anyway? Play a Rogue and have a staggering a amount of skills. Bitterly crying that fighters and wizards work differently? Play the one that works the way you prefer. Easy access to healing via skills is the best thing now. Cleric still very good but not required is nice.
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Aug 16, 2019 11:13
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Okay, two more questions from my friends who have concerns with the system. First, given that your AC increases each level, do you "graduate" out of combat with certain enemies? Like, once you're high enough level, are you basically immune to Kobolds and Goblins? Second, I can't find any reference on how to resolve combat where you sneak up on your target. For example, say your party waits in ambush, perfectly hidden. You spring your attack and catch your foe entirely unaware. Best I can tell, the only thing this gets you is that you get to roll Stealth for your initiative, and your opponents still roll their standard Perception for initiative? No surprise round, modifiers, or action point penalties for being caught off guard?
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Aug 16, 2019 20:11
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Duct Tape posted:Okay, two more questions from my friends who have concerns with the system. To a certain extent, yes. It's very gradual, though. A 4th level enemy enemy might be attacking with +12 to-hit (on their first swing). If you are an 11th level monk with Expert Unarmed Defense, 18 Dex, and +2 Armor, you'll have 10+11+4+4+2=31 AC. The 4th level enemy is only hitting you on a 19 or 20. Subsequent swings only a hit on a 20 and they can't crit. Duct Tape posted:Second, I can't find any reference on how to resolve combat where you sneak up on your target. For example, say your party waits in ambush, perfectly hidden. You spring your attack and catch your foe entirely unaware. Best I can tell, the only thing this gets you is that you get to roll Stealth for your initiative, and your opponents still roll their standard Perception for initiative? Correct. Initiative is always rolled vs. the action you are taking when the encounter starts. Duct Tape posted:No surprise round, modifiers, or action point penalties for being caught off guard? Only rogues have surprise mechanics, as far as I've seen. Acting first is a pretty big deal, though.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:30
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Toshimo posted:To a certain extent, yes. It's very gradual, though. A 4th level enemy enemy might be attacking with +12 to-hit (on their first swing). If you are an 11th level monk with Expert Unarmed Defense, 18 Dex, and +2 Armor, you'll have 10+11+4+4+2=31 AC. The 4th level enemy is only hitting you on a 19 or 20. Subsequent swings only a hit on a 20 and they can't crit. Thanks. Acting first definitely seems to be a benefit; however, isn't there no guarantee if you successfully sneak up on a target that you actually get to go first? If the only impact of attacking an unaware foe is that you get to roll Stealth for initiative, while they get to roll Perception, then they could easily roll higher than you and wind up going first.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:50
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Duct Tape posted:Second, I can't find any reference on how to resolve combat where you sneak up on your target. For example, say your party waits in ambush, perfectly hidden. You spring your attack and catch your foe entirely unaware. Best I can tell, the only thing this gets you is that you get to roll Stealth for your initiative, and your opponents still roll their standard Perception for initiative? No surprise round, modifiers, or action point penalties for being caught off guard? It’s possible for your stealth roll to beat their perception DC but their perception roll for initiative to beat your stealth roll. In that circumstance they “go first” but they aren’t aware of you. What actions they take depend on what the GM seems their exploration mode tactics were. If they’re (unsuccessfully, at first) looking for hidden enemies the GM might have them burn a Seek action for a second opportunity to spot you against your Stealth DC. If they see you they spent the action, at least. If they don’t see you or they aren’t looking they use their actions “in combat” without awareness of you. They might attack your allies but not you, or if they detect no one keep walking, which might take them out of your preferred ambush zone before you act and attack first despite losing initiative. Or they could just be sitting oblivious at a campfire and you act first despite losing initiative.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:51
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Drone Jett posted:It’s possible for your stealth roll to beat their perception DC but their perception roll for initiative to beat your stealth roll. In that circumstance they “go first” but they aren’t aware of you.  I didn't even think of that. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:56
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Well, RAW, you might not act first. If you were sneaking, everyone would roll Stealth for their init, and you'd all be Unnoticed or Undetected depending on the situation. The enemies would have whatever perception as init, but would need to take actions to actually perceive you as far as I can see. The roll for init wouldn't automatically spot anyone, and if people had failed their stealth rolls to sneak up on them in the first place, then they'd already be Observed or Hidden, depending, I think. So the high-stealth sneakers could easily act first then get jumped by the low-init perception people, potentially, which does seem weird. Might not be correct but that's how it reads to me?
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Aug 16, 2019 20:56
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From the Paizo stream, the major updates to the Core rules they are acknowledging will be changed (or have already been changed):
To clarify, these aren't "rules changes" per se, they are misprinted items that were missed in the Core Rules, but may already be updated in the Character Sheet Pack.
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Aug 17, 2019 00:38
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https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sgut?Such-a-Lovely-Place-Such-a-Lovely-Face Splat feat inflation is already here, that elf heritage is nuts.
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Aug 17, 2019 21:09
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Drone Jett posted:https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sgut?Such-a-Lovely-Place-Such-a-Lovely-Face I'm just a fighter now john, that's all. A blunt tool, for a blunt century. If you seek the wizard, she was lost among the ruins of a more civilized age....
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Aug 17, 2019 23:22
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Pathfinder explicitly saying that elves and dwarves come in multiple races and ethnicities and expanding on that is pretty cool. I do kinda wish that part of the world building was in the main book though
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Aug 18, 2019 02:27
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Drone Jett posted:https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sgut?Such-a-Lovely-Place-Such-a-Lovely-Face
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Aug 18, 2019 02:31
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Kylra posted:How so? Summons do not seem particularly amazing generally in PF2. probably the free multiclass one?
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Aug 18, 2019 02:49
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thetoughestbean posted:Pathfinder explicitly saying that elves and dwarves come in multiple races and ethnicities and expanding on that is pretty cool. I do kinda wish that part of the world building was in the main book though Yeah, that stuck out while going through. 2 pages of kinds of human and one entry for each other race.
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Aug 18, 2019 14:08
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Has anyone played the released version of this yet? What were your impressions of it regarding things like game speed and party composition?
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Aug 18, 2019 14:12
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Gort posted:Has anyone played the released version of this yet? What were your impressions of it regarding things like game speed and party composition? I played 4 1-ahots at GenCon, and if the GM has their poo poo together, the pacing is pretty good, because all the math is easily derived, so you don't lose time matching as much. As far as party comp, I think at early levels, you can really feel it if you don't have skill coverage. Otherwise, it doesn't really feel like you Must Have any other role (although in the total absence of a healing caster, having a Battle Medic feat on someone is A Big Deal).
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Aug 18, 2019 14:21
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Gort posted:Has anyone played the released version of this yet? What were your impressions of it regarding things like game speed and party composition? I played all three society scenarios at GenCon, and loved it. The more I read of the book (I just finished with the classes section) the more I like it. game speed is pretty good, the new three action economy is an excellent way to finally do away with move, standard, swift, actions. Party composition I'd really recommend a cleric, the 1st level scenarios can be kinda brutal, chugging potions isn't a really viable route to healing in combat anymore, and having someone with medicine out of combat for post fight healing is really almost necessary. Overall, I love it.
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Aug 18, 2019 14:39
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OgreNoah posted:I played all three society scenarios at GenCon, and loved it. Did any of the society scenarios particularly stand out? I might be running something for my group on Friday and am considering trying one of them, but not sure which.
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Aug 18, 2019 16:13
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Leraika posted:probably the free multiclass one? Yeah, the comparison is really stark if you compare what those multiclass feats actually do to the Human ancestry feat benefits. Shall I take a skill, or get a skill, the ability to cast a few cantrips, and the option to take further multiclass feats from this class (all a level before any other character could choose to multiclass)?
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Aug 18, 2019 16:16
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Elenkis posted:Did any of the society scenarios particularly stand out? I might be running something for my group on Friday and am considering trying one of them, but not sure which. If they are real deal newbies, just do 1-01 (although it has more DM prep). If you feel like they have a handle on the system, 1-02 is a better plot+adventure. I don't think 1-03 is remarkable in any way. 1-00 is 5th-level pregens.
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Aug 18, 2019 16:37
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Leraika posted:probably the free multiclass one? Yeah, other heritages give you access to a cantrip, this lets you buy a MC spellcaster dedication that comes with two cantrips and 1-2 trained skills, as well as saving your 2nd level class feat for something else you want. It's totally unbalanced and will be the One True Race and Heritage for multiclass optimizers.
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Aug 18, 2019 20:18
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I am glad my play group focuses on making characters, and not just playing the most perfectly min-maxed thing possible. One of the things I like the most about this edition so far is that it seems better balanced across the board, but of course some things are just going to end up being superior.
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Aug 18, 2019 20:46
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Leraika posted:probably the free multiclass one? Any human can convert an ancestry feat into any 1st level class feat (and you're probably going to want at least one one). Just use that for what you would take at level 2 and take the dedication at level 2 instead. Plus they can get effectively 2 skill boosts (4 levels worth for non-rogues) or a general feat (which also encompasses most skill feats) on top from heritage. And you can put your ancestry ability boosts wherever you want and without a mandatory penalty to con. That Elf heritage is good, and maybe too strong, but it doesn't seem break the game or mandatory good compared to a human to me at the moment. Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Aug 19, 2019 |
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Aug 19, 2019 00:16
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Kylra posted:I swear it didn't have any content past the first two when I first clicked it. You can’t use the human bonus 1st level feat to take a 2nd level feat.
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Aug 19, 2019 01:06
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I am glad my play group focuses on making characters, and not just playing the most perfectly min-maxed thing possible. One of the things I like the most about this edition so far is that it seems better balanced across the board, but of course some things are just going to end up being superior. If you don't understand why unbalanced mechanics in a game that heavily and prominently features mechanics would cause a problem in the mechanics that represent characters then you are either ignorant/fantastically naive or trolling.
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Aug 19, 2019 07:46
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Drone Jett posted:You can’t use the human bonus 1st level feat to take a 2nd level feat. You can use it to take the other first level feat you want but can't take because you only get one, though.
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Aug 19, 2019 08:49
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