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Nessus posted:So are there any systems where all this physical stuff is PHYSIQUE while intelligence gets broken down into Knowledge, Intuition, and Spatial Awareness? Eclipse Phase ostensibly has all your attributes be mental aptitudes. Two of these - Somatics and Coordination - are primarily about the ability to use your body, but it also has Cognition, Intuition, and Social Savvy as three components of more convention intelligence.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:00
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Glagha posted:I like intelligence becoming knowledge instead. Like, I dunno about you but I for one do enjoy playing the nerd character. I like the wizard with their books who sees the ancient runes on the wall and is kind "ah yes this looks like ancient whatever" and remembers an ancient tome they read or something. Doesn't mean the wizard knows better than everyone else, but if you need someone who knows obscure trivia about ancient history which may or may not be relevant to the current situation, this is your guy. Nerd fantasies do make intelligence be the "be the best" stat instead of the "good at studying" stat though. I feel like this kind of stuff is better handled by skills, or feats, or something other than implying that knowledge is some kind of inherent ability
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Aug 18, 2019 22:04
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LatwPIAT posted:Eclipse Phase ostensibly has all your attributes be mental aptitudes. Two of these - Somatics and Coordination - are primarily about the ability to use your body, but it also has Cognition, Intuition, and Social Savvy as three components of more convention intelligence.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:05
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Darwinism posted:I feel like this kind of stuff is better handled by skills, or feats, or something other than implying that knowledge is some kind of inherent ability You can say that for all the ability scores though (which might be a point all on its own). Like, you can definitely work out a bunch to get stronger. I feel like having a stat that is "ability to be a fuckin nerd and know things" isn't inherently a bad thing.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:11
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Glagha posted:You can say that for all the ability scores though (which might be a point all on its own). Like, you can definitely work out a bunch to get stronger. I feel like having a stat that is "ability to be a fuckin nerd and know things" isn't inherently a bad thing. Sure and agreed, there's no reason to try to measure inherent potential as opposed to learned potential, and it causes lots of both narrative and world-view problems. (There's also no very good mechanical reason.)
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Aug 18, 2019 22:16
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Darwinism posted:I feel like this kind of stuff is better handled by skills, or feats, or something other than implying that knowledge is some kind of inherent ability Having a stat for somethng doesn't necessarily imply it's an inherent ability, though. Like, I could have the stats in my game be Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wealth; I don't think anyone would interpret that as suggesting that having gobs of money lying around is an inbuilt status in the same way as being really beefy is. Equally, then, you could have one of the stats be something like "Education" or "Lore" or something to indicate that the character -- through whatever means -- has amassed a whole load of book-learning, and they tend to solve problems by pulling out some obscure piece of trivia from their past that turns out to be relevant. That feels a lot better to me than calling the stat "Intelligence".
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Aug 18, 2019 22:26
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Nessus posted:Seems like a more reasonable breakdown if you must keep the habit. And I suppose EP has all the body swapping so things like strength, height, ability to endure shelling etc. would be per-frame rather than intrinsic to the character. That would make sense, so EP doesn't do that. Instead, strong bodies add to your Somatics score.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:28
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Well now it doesn't. Morphs add to Pools in 2e instead of directly affecting your attributes.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:42
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So if Intelligence is dressed up differently it is OK?
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Aug 18, 2019 23:17
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Darwinism posted:Have you ever, ever been somewhere where someone seriously went, "I am the smartest person here, therefor I should be in charge," and that like... actually worked? At all, even in the slightest? The LessWrong people are deep into that rabbit hole, and they have some weird sex cult poo poo going on.
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Aug 18, 2019 23:19
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Lord_Hambrose posted:So if Intelligence is dressed up differently it is OK? Depends on what you mean by "dressed up differently." If you're talking about reframing the context of the "smart person" stat in such a way that it better reflects the systemic origin of knowledge spreading or attach it to some combination of personality traits rather than suggesting some sort of in-born genetic destiny to "intelligence" then it could be fine. If you're picking a different word like "smarts" or "brains" then that's not going to work super well. Roadie posted:The LessWrong people are deep into that rabbit hole, and they have some weird sex cult poo poo going on. The LessWrong folks are definitely huge into this idea of their own in-born superiority and how "conventional" thinking holds them back and they're super gross and sexually abusive about it.
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Aug 18, 2019 23:22
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D&D already represents intelligence with at least four factors. (Int, Wis, Cha, and level, at least.) Renaming Int to Edu is probably more than sufficient.
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Aug 19, 2019 00:07
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Whybird posted:Having a stat for somethng doesn't necessarily imply it's an inherent ability, though. Like, I could have the stats in my game be Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wealth; I don't think anyone would interpret that as suggesting that having gobs of money lying around is an inbuilt status in the same way as being really beefy is. Plenty of actual people in this hobby would make the argument that wealth-making/hording is inherited to your face if you just reworded it slightly to be more vaguely anti-Semitic so I don't know if your point here is as good as you think it is
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Aug 19, 2019 00:18
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The thing is that INT has in-game benchmarks so it doesn't matter how a character meets them. It's irrelevant whether they studied real hard, have a natural affinity for jamming spells in their skull, preternatural cognition, improvised quickly, or whatever. It's an abstraction, just like all the other attributes. STR doesn't differentiate between core strength, upper body, or leg day. If you can bend bars / lift gates at X percentage, you have Y Strength. If you can learn X bonus spells, you have Y Intelligence. moths fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Aug 19, 2019 |
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Aug 19, 2019 00:40
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moths posted:The thing is that INT has in-game benchmarks so it doesn't matter how a character meets them. It's irrelevant whether they studied real hard, have a natural affinity for jamming spells in their skull, preternatural cognition, improvised quickly, or whatever. Then maybe the Intelligence stat should be updated to reflect that it's magical ability being quantified, not intelligence.
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Aug 19, 2019 00:52
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The six stats, Melee Damage Bonus, Hitpoints, Stuff For Rogues, Spells, Pretty Much Clerics Only (And Perception I Guess), and Diplomacy Checks.
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Aug 19, 2019 00:59
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This discussion reminds me of when I saw Celebrity Jeopardy with astronaut Mark Kelly, NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers, and Kevin O Leary from Shark Tank. Figured the astronaut was going to do really well, especially on the science categories. Aaron Rodgers slayed it. He got to a huge lead at the beginning and widened it throughout the game. So in addition to being good looking, a top tier quarterback, and super rich, he's also really good at Jeopardy 
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Aug 19, 2019 01:10
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King of Solomon posted:Then maybe the Intelligence stat should be updated to reflect that it's magical ability being quantified, not intelligence.
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Aug 19, 2019 01:14
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Kai Tave posted:The six stats, Melee Damage Bonus, Hitpoints, Stuff For Rogues, Spells, Pretty Much Clerics Only (And Perception I Guess), and Diplomacy Checks. I've thought about combining Wisdom and Charisma into "Poise", to go with combining Strength and Constitution into one stat, and then splitting Intelligence into one stat for education/memorization and one for puzzle-solving and quick thinking. Edit: gently caress it, just make it four stats. Brawn (Fort saves), Agility (Ref saves), Lore (??? saves), Poise (Will saves). Roadie fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Aug 19, 2019 |
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Aug 19, 2019 01:16
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canyoneer posted:This discussion reminds me of when I saw Celebrity Jeopardy with astronaut Mark Kelly, NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers, and Kevin O Leary from Shark Tank. 
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Aug 19, 2019 01:23
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Kai Tave posted:The six stats, Melee Damage Bonus, Hitpoints, Stuff For Rogues, Spells, Pretty Much Clerics Only (And Perception I Guess), and Diplomacy Checks. Fighter, Rogue, Health, Wizard, Cleric (and Perception), Diplomacy. Paladins are Fighter Diplomats Monks are Rogue Perception Fighters Barbarians are Healthy Fighters Sorcerors, Bards and Warlocks are different types of Diplomancers. Rangers are Perception Rogues (and not rogue clerics, which are a different thing and worth 100xp at level 1)
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Aug 19, 2019 01:57
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Nessus posted:Call of Cthulhu, ironically, does this better. There is still INT but it is explicitly "cleverness and intuition," with the other factors unpacked into EDU (how much book learning you have - you can explicitly be high EDU, low INT, or vice versa) and POW (force of personality, affects magic power and some aspects of social presence). 7th Edition is an even bigger improvement because whilst in the old system your career skills were based solely off EDU, making it a bit of a god stat, now it depends on your application - stuff like being a college professor might be based off EDU solely, whereas other professions might have it based off EDU and some other stat. (Artists, for instance, get to choose between being based off EDU and DEX - which I guess represents being an artist known mainly for their fine technique - or EDU and POW, which can represent being an artist known more for their creative, original ideas.) EDU's still good in all cases because having more training is clearly better than having less training, but it's less of an all-conquering stat, and it's much harder to roll a character who gets a truly miserably low number of skill points unless you are either incredibly unlucky in rolling your stats (assuming rolling rather than point buy or an array is being used) or you deliberately choose to play a character who's bad at their day job because that's what you want to play.
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Aug 19, 2019 02:05
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One of the early "Let's try to beat D&D at its own game" RPGs, SPI's Dragonquest, had no intelligence stat at all, just a "Magic Aptitude" stat and Perception, the latter of which was the same for everyone. Various schools of magic required more magic aptitude to play with, with greater summoning requiring basically average values while being a psychic required a pretty high score, based on the idea that demons want people to be able to contact and contract with them fairly easily and being a psychic was almost all your own internal power.
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Aug 19, 2019 03:47
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Intelligence is the stat for overcoming obstacles.
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Aug 19, 2019 07:09
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Pendragon has no INT stat.
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Aug 19, 2019 07:28
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Meinberg posted:Depends on what you mean by "dressed up differently." If you're talking about reframing the context of the "smart person" stat in such a way that it better reflects the systemic origin of knowledge spreading or attach it to some combination of personality traits rather than suggesting some sort of in-born genetic destiny to "intelligence" then it could be fine. So yes? It seems pretty obvious that training is also rolled in to intelligence as having more of it give you more skill points as well as, and this is the important bit, the fact that you can raise it like strength or other physical stats. I have always felt INT was book learning while wisdom is non book learning and charisma was social skills. This is of course applicable to d&d derivatives, but many other games as well. I feel the names are perfectly fine, but I certainly think game designers should not give races that represent real minorities a subhuman amount of brains.
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Aug 19, 2019 11:36
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You guys forgot to talk about the industry again.
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Aug 19, 2019 11:38
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Lurdiak posted:You guys forgot to talk about the industry again. The industry's INT is at the left side of the Dunning-Kruger graph.
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Aug 19, 2019 13:03
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homullus posted:The industry's INT is at the left side of the Dunning-Kruger graph.
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Aug 19, 2019 13:04
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I enjoy the division of casters such that some work off of learned knowledge, some work off faith, and some work off force of personality. But that can be boiled down to flavor and a uniform "magic" stat.Meinberg posted:The LessWrong folks are definitely huge into this idea of their own in-born superiority and how "conventional" thinking holds them back and they're super gross and sexually abusive about it. But what sexual abuse did they do so I can properly hate/mock them more?
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Aug 19, 2019 13:07
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Lord_Hambrose posted:So yes? ohh this is real dumb imo the distinction of "book learning" to other kinds Is classist as gently caress. and also makes no real sense wisdom is literally the accumulation of knowledge over time
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Aug 19, 2019 13:45
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I remember BECMI describing intelligence as being able to realise that it's raining, and wisdom as knowing to get the gently caress inside before you catch a cold.
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Aug 19, 2019 13:50
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Elfgames posted:ohh this is real dumb imo the distinction of "book learning" to other kinds Is classist as gently caress. and also makes no real sense wisdom is literally the accumulation of knowledge over time But isn't it literally what the stat is trying to represent in d&d? Same thing with what wisdom is trying to represent, learning from less formal instruction. The labels might be upsetting to you, but in the context of the game that is what they are.
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Aug 19, 2019 14:05
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We still have a Gygax quote in the thread explicitly saying 'Intelligence is IQ' and its clearly supposed to be innate because it's an attribute, not a skill.
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Aug 19, 2019 15:21
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Kurieg posted:I enjoy the division of casters such that some work off of learned knowledge, some work off faith, and some work off force of personality. But that can be boiled down to flavor and a uniform "magic" stat. You can still do this mechanically by having a " Magic" stat, then giving wizards automatic Magical Theory training, Clerics Theology training, and Sorcerers Streetwise or something. Hell, give unique bonuses to those classes in those skills to represent their more extensive background with those particular subjects.
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Aug 19, 2019 15:28
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FMguru posted:Pendragon has no INT stat. In fact, it has 20 different stats for determining the particular way you're going to be stupid!
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Aug 19, 2019 17:27
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moths posted:The thing is that INT has in-game benchmarks so it doesn't matter how a character meets them. It's irrelevant whether they studied real hard, have a natural affinity for jamming spells in their skull, preternatural cognition, improvised quickly, or whatever. It's hard to argue that the representation of intelligence is not problem or not tied to mental capabilities when Gully Dwarves exist and are a thing. Their mental disabilities (which are played for a joke) are tied directly to their Intelligence score. (Source: http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/d/dwargull.html) You can even look at 3e racial templates for Gully Dwarves and they receive a whopping -4 to Intelligence to represent this.
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Aug 19, 2019 17:41
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Lord_Hambrose posted:But isn't it literally what the stat is trying to represent in d&d? Same thing with what wisdom is trying to represent, learning from less formal instruction. I wish people would stop thinking that it's the labels themselves that're the problem. They aren't, and swapping them won't change it. The problem is that the way we talk about 'intelligence' is fundamentally flawed in many instances, especially when talking about poo poo like IQ. Turns out that we know a lot of these ways are really bad and usually racist because they were pioneered by people with lots of racism and an urge to justify it! So it's not enough to just go, "Oh, okay, we'll call the Racial Superiority stat something else on the surface, we cool now?" Instead we should probably be going, "Man, how do we reflect the thing we wanna do without also just repeating racist screeds only divorced of some of the context that'd help us realize they're bad?"
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Aug 19, 2019 17:52
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Kurieg posted:But what sexual abuse did they do so I can properly hate/mock them more? I can't seem to find the receipts online, but that's probably because they've recently become very litigious. But essentially, one of their victims committed suicide about a year ago and her suicide note included some very serious reports of sexual violence against her, behavior which I've seen corroborated privately by a friend of mine who has gone silent on the subject because of targeted harassment.
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Aug 19, 2019 18:00
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Bieeanshee posted:I remember BECMI describing intelligence as being able to realise that it's raining, and wisdom as knowing to get the gently caress inside before you catch a cold. Yeah, all the old sources tend to treat Int as the trivia stat and wisdom as the folksy know-how stat. You see poo poo like: Intelligence: A tomato is technically a fruit Wisdom: Don't put a tomato in a fruit salad Charisma: I could sell fruit salad with a tomato in it
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Aug 19, 2019 20:13
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