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Mr. Nice! posted:McNally could also give you another 6er to explain that he was wrong on that one. He blew off my PM yesterday and hasn’t responded at all here so I don’t think he thinks he’s wrong. Whatever.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:06
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I've never understood why 6ers generated angry pms.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:25
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I'm still pretty firmly of the opinion that resolving the biggest issues of policing requires solving the basic problem of how police are trained, funded, and managed. Stop training cops like they're anti-terrorism units. Focus on community policing, teach de-escalation, and develop better training and policy around dealing with the mentally ill. Remove the perverse incentives around tying funding to ticketing. Build an independent federal-level organization under to DoJ to prosecute malfeasance, rather than relying on local prosecutors who risk their career if they push too hard because other police will sabotage cases in revenge.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:28
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I've never understood why 6ers generated angry pms. I think it’s reasonable for me to be annoyed given how I was dogpiled and insulted by people who either can’t read or have an absolutely impossible standard of behavior for anecdotes from literally years ago. Being too high and mighty too apologize much less respond i think is also pretty silly. I seriously doubt most of the people here would have dared to even bring it up, much less changed careers over that. It made my last few weeks there miserable too.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:34
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Yeah, I misread the post. My bad, man.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:57
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hot sorcery posted:godholio you can’t use “good faith” to police (lol) other people’s responses and then post things like this!! i know you’re joking and don’t actually think that sums up my viewpoint but everyone feels strongly about this issue and it would be easy to read this as you being flippant or dismissive! That was actually not about you at all. Also  has been the sarcasm guy since forever, and I'm not downloading the sarcmark(TM) to make it any clearer.
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Aug 10, 2019 05:59
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McNally posted:Yeah, I misread the post. My bad, man. Thank you. I appreciate that.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:03
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Maybe have a federally supported training program. I don't understand why its easier having a gun, than being trained as an EMT? And EMTs are more strict in applying protocol, and can lose their license.
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Aug 10, 2019 11:45
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I think it’s an artifact from the fact that police authority is an extension of state law while EMS was effectively created by the federal DOT from the get go. Nowadays with our political climate no way states give up training/certification even though criminal law, use of force and police procedures are mostly universal and based upon federal rulings. Even though it would make more sense for at least the police training that isn’t about criminal law to be nationally standardized. At the end of the day though I think the best solution is radical reform. At the very least cops should have ties and accountability directly to the people they patrol, and very low level formalized community organizations for each neighborhood or city block that have some actual ability to impact policy and hiring.
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Aug 10, 2019 14:36
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A massive push back to community policing- REAL community policing. Anecdotal- I knew all the officers that worked my area as a young kid. I lived a few blocks from an area that was pretty bad at the time (if you are familiar, I lived a few blocks from O'Donnel Heights in the late 80s/early 90s)- bad enough the ice cream man had cages after getting robbed there. I saw my first man die while living in that apartment complex before I could write cursive. I point out the bad, because I remember those officers would actually dismount, and walk through the complex. The still used the traditional thumpers on leather thongs, and would do the Baltimore Baton, spinning it, flipping it as they walked. They showed the kids how, let them try. I remember them catching underage drinking a lot, but always ran the kid home, talked with the parents, or just ran them off. The victimiless poo poo they didn't seem to care about. Now, this is some old memories, so I'm forgetting a lot, but actually having cops talk to people as people, not as an investigative interaction was great.
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Aug 10, 2019 14:39
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Generally I'd say 1) decriminalize all drugs, police only deal with people who are high when they're being violent or trying to steal stuff, and then only long enough to stabilize the situation until health services can show up, 2) same with mental illness (and in both cases put a LOT more money into health services and make access universal and free). Beyond that, standardized training (and a lot more of it, two-four years interspersed with apprentice style on the job training) for cops, and additional training if you want to carry a gun or be on SWAT (I'd say all SWAT teams are run by the state instead of each municipality having their own guys), and SWAT is reserved for their original purpose (barricaded shooters, hostage situations, etc). If cops are still dealing with economic crimes (and I think that would be fine) explicitly include wage theft in the scope of that, and give enforcement of that an amount of resources corresponding to the share of economic crimes it makes up. Finally, make local law enforcement beholden to local communities. Local democratically elected police oversight boards with subpoena power, disciplinary, firing, and charging power, and resources to conduct their own investigations. And also probably pay cops more, but honestly pay everyone more, because a lot of (non white collar) crimes are more symptoms of poverty and would probably go away if everyone was usefully occupied at least 30 hours a week and secure in housing, health care, food, etc.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:41
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Bored As gently caress posted:Whenever I see anyone post "abolish the police" it boggles my mind. Even "abolish the current criminal justice system and build a new one" is a pipe dream, although that is slightly less insane than just having no police force. This is what always confuses me. What's supposed to happen when a citizen hurts another person in a fight? Who investigates and prosecutes organized crime? Who enforces court orders for protective custody? I feel as though some cop-like structure would emerge, whether it's military police, privatized security and investigation, organized crime, or political party enforcers.
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Aug 17, 2019 18:02
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piL posted:This is what always confuses me. What's supposed to happen when a citizen hurts another person in a fight? Who investigates and prosecutes organized crime? Who enforces court orders for protective custody? I've seen leftists on twitter post about how when they need help they just call the people they trust and get a group together for protection. I understand that transpersons and other members of the queer community have a distrust of the police, but I don't understand how that doesn't lead to lynch mobs and street gangs. There will always be people who have to use physical force to enforce the rules of society. Even if you have whatever utopia ideal you propose, these issues will come up and at the end of the day the only way to enforce them is through physical force. Those people are cops. If you don't have them, then you're relying on your buddies to come through and help you enforce a rule or get justice. And then the perpetrator gets their buddies and does the same thing. It's all Montagues and Capulets, Hatfields and McCoys
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Aug 17, 2019 19:33
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Best detailed policy breakdown I've seen from a leftist org on how they would like policing changed is the Movement for Black Lives: https://policy.m4bl.org/ They have a lot of specific goals detailed out there. This is the one specifically on policing: https://policy.m4bl.org/end-war-on-black-people/ These are the policy summaries, and they have more detail on federal, state, and local action that can be used to accomplish each: quote:End the War on Black People
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Aug 17, 2019 19:41
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Chichevache posted:I've seen leftists on twitter post about how when they need help they just call the people they trust and get a group together for protection. I understand that transpersons and other members of the queer community have a distrust of the police, but I don't understand how that doesn't lead to lynch mobs and street gangs. I don't want to debate this too thoroughly without the input of someone to properly defend it for fear of building a strawman. However, my concerns with that, beyond the dangers of mobs, is that it creates incredible restriction on travel (you don't have those connections with you in a different area), and supports localized minorities (i.e. those without of pluralities in the local area) even less. All of that will promote geographic segregation more successfully than is already accomplished.
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Aug 17, 2019 19:47
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Chichevache posted:I've seen leftists on twitter post about how when they need help they just call the people they trust and get a group together for protection. I understand that transpersons and other members of the queer community have a distrust of the police, but I don't understand how that doesn't lead to lynch mobs and street gangs. This used to be how advanced and powerful states: systems of justice and policing were mostly devolved to local clans, usually councils of elders. There's a guy named Ocalan who wrote about what a modern non-imperialisy version of this might look like, with respect for all hatfields and mccoys, even those that live in each other's towns. It was a matter of some interest to him, since he's Kurdish (and has been in a Turkish prison for years). a bunch of de facto "kurdistani" cities are really into him. e: i can't make too spirited of a defense of this idea, but i'm sympathetic to it Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Aug 17, 2019 |
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Aug 17, 2019 21:45
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Doc Hawkins posted:This used to be how advanced and powerful states: systems of justice and policing were mostly devolved to local clans, usually councils of elders. There's a guy named Ocalan who wrote about what a modern non-imperialisy version of this might look like, with respect for all hatfields and mccoys, even those that live in each other's towns. It was a matter of some interest to him, since he's Kurdish (and has been in a Turkish prison for years). a bunch of de facto "kurdistani" cities are really into him. I'll look him up. I'm curious to see how he thinks this would work. I know that's how it often worked prior to the advent of modern policing. I still don't see how that doesn't devolve into the elites using the police for their own advantage. As a millenial I'm not feeling predisposed to trusting elders (boomers).
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Aug 17, 2019 22:00
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Chichevache posted:I'll look him up. I'm curious to see how he thinks this would work. I know that's how it often worked prior to the advent of modern policing. I still don't see how that doesn't devolve into the elites using the police for their own advantage. As a millenial I'm not feeling predisposed to trusting elders (boomers). That is always going to be an issue until we manage to build a political system the rich can't afford to buy. Since that's not happening any time soon, reform that is presently achievable can focus on making enforcement egalitarian, making punishment focused on reformation rather than punitive measures, and holding those responsible accountable when power is abused.
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Aug 18, 2019 04:27
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And of course, elites currently use police for their advantage. That's explicitly how quite a bit of the current system is set up. Not that I'm sure the Kurdish confederalist anarchism would work, but y'know.
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Aug 18, 2019 04:45
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Not to be "that guy" but relying on the mob to sort your poo poo is how warlords get started.
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Aug 18, 2019 07:25
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Doc Hawkins posted:This used to be how advanced and powerful states: systems of justice and policing were mostly devolved to local clans, usually councils of elders. There's a guy named Ocalan who wrote about what a modern non-imperialisy version of this might look like, with respect for all hatfields and mccoys, even those that live in each other's towns. It was a matter of some interest to him, since he's Kurdish (and has been in a Turkish prison for years). a bunch of de facto "kurdistani" cities are really into him. Rojava (where Ocalan is basically the head of state in exile) basically still has police though. And there basically isn’t a modern country that doesn’t have some kind of police system. So I think it’s really just the execution Crakkerjakk posted:And of course, elites currently use police for their advantage. That's explicitly how quite a bit of the current system is set up. The confederalist system is kinda all about municipalism, so there isn’t any one way it would work beyond each major area runs law enforcement and policy whatever way the local council decides so long as it generally follows their principles. I think police are basically a reflection of the people who control the government, so if you have a broadly authentic democracy, you generally have good police. I was talking to a German cop and while German cops actually generally have more leeway for search and seizure there isn’t really any of the issues we have over here (according to him anyway) because most Germans actually feel like the police are held accountable, there is mutual trust, and are a beneficial institution. In pretty much every country that’s broadly egalitarian most people seem to trust the police rather than see them (and the police see themselves) as an occupying force or just defenders of “order” and private property. You gotta remember that like 45% of Americans support a man who said that cops should physically abuse handcuffed suspects because it’s funny. America had the police America wants and deserves- white Americans anyway.
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Aug 18, 2019 07:45
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I wanted to bring this here because it illustrates one of the problems we keep talking about : https://twitter.com/ErnieLies/status/1162741430424674305 Note the refusal to even speculate on the existence of responsibility to be assumed, to the point of writing in such a way that it appears that the truck a corrections officer drove into protesters (on video, I note) did so of its own volition.
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Aug 18, 2019 10:43
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When the media goes to extreme lengths to avoid engaging in cop-chat.
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Aug 18, 2019 11:08
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This is very worth a read, and it's quick. https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar
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Aug 18, 2019 13:26
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mlmp08 posted:This is very worth a read, and it's quick. Wait why did you post the same tweet twice
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Aug 18, 2019 14:58
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Liquid Communism posted:I wanted to bring this here because it illustrates one of the problems we keep talking about : Yeah, the dude is a piece of poo poo and he probably should have been arrested on the spot. That said, the journalists pussed out by not writing "confections officer allegedly hit protesters with a truck". The media in this country has been pretty gutless and ineffective for the past decade at least. It only gets worse as social media and internet news kills old media.
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Aug 18, 2019 15:19
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Chichevache posted:Yeah, the dude is a piece of poo poo and he probably should have been arrested on the spot. That said, the journalists pussed out by not writing "confections officer allegedly hit protesters with a truck". The media in this country has been pretty gutless and ineffective for the past decade at least. It only gets worse as social media and internet news kills old media. Agreed, but I'll admit I've never seen confections officers go bad before.
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Aug 18, 2019 15:50
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Arc Light posted:Agreed, but I'll admit I've never seen confections officers go bad before. You don't want to, bro. Trust me. One time, I saw a CO use vinegar in place of sugar on a cupcake recipe. Made me sick to my stomach. You know you'll see rough stuff in this line of work, but nothing prepares you for that kind of sight. I didn't even go home that night. I just got in my car and drove for hours. I woke up in a TJ Maxx parking lot two counties over with two half eaten boxes of Krispy Kreme in my car.
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Aug 18, 2019 15:55
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Liquid Communism posted:I wanted to bring this here because it illustrates one of the problems we keep talking about : That's how a lot of those articles get written. To make sure I wasn't just falsely remembering, I just looked up the Nice truck attacks, a similar event in NY, and some other I've already forgotten. "*vehicle* drives into crowd" is how a lot of these headlines read. Godholio fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Aug 18, 2019 |
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Aug 18, 2019 17:21
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:Wait why did you post the same tweet twice What? That’s not a tweet.
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Aug 18, 2019 18:08
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mlmp08 posted:What? That’s not a tweet. I was a making a joke Implying the news tweet was itself a guide to being ambiguous.
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Aug 19, 2019 03:28
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NYPD press conference at 1230. buckle up
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Aug 19, 2019 16:36
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Smiling Jack posted:NYPD press conference at 1230. Did something just go down? I've been traveling the last couple days and I missed whatever kicked this off.
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Aug 19, 2019 17:00
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The video that came out a few days ago from the union calling crime the new entitlement for black people and how trump is taking the correct approach to them. On a different note the cops in texas who tied a black guy to a horse and made him walk to the wherever are back on the street with no investigation done.
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Aug 19, 2019 17:06
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Arc Light posted:Did something just go down? I've been traveling the last couple days and I missed whatever kicked this off. Decison on firing of Eric Garner cop
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Aug 19, 2019 17:12
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Was eric garner the guy who got choked to death for cigarettes while saying i cant breathe or was he the guy who got his back/neck broken while chained up inside a parked police van?
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Aug 19, 2019 17:21
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Stravag posted:Was eric garner the guy who got choked to death for cigarettes while saying i cant breathe or was he the guy who got his back/neck broken while chained up inside a parked police van? The first. The second was Freddy Gray in Baltimore.
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Aug 19, 2019 17:44
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Uhhhhh...
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Aug 19, 2019 18:18
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poo poo i missed the part of a cops job responsibilities to choke people to death. My bad
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Aug 19, 2019 18:28
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lol that Union dude just lusts for black deaths, doesn't he? Oh well, he's good for the guys in the union
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Aug 19, 2019 18:48
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