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sullat posted:Numa boasted that the doors of the temple were never opened once during his reign. yeah numa is a boss he was like joseph smith recieving divine wisdom from a nymph no one else was allowed to meet and formalizing roman animism into a real religion
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Aug 19, 2019 19:32
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Real hurthling! posted:yeah numa is a boss he was like joseph smith recieving divine wisdom from a nymph no one else was allowed to meet and formalizing roman animism into a real religion Like a Roman Akhenaton
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Aug 19, 2019 19:35
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One year, the day after valentine's day all of my friends were sending me these cheesy photos of them doing typical valentine's day stuff, having candlelit dinners and posing with flowers and such. Me and my girlfriend at the time had a pleasant low key date eating a nice meal but hadn't posed for any couple selfies. But this was the 15th, which is the date of Lupercalia, the Roman precursor to Valentine's day, so I thought it would be funny if we sent them a photo of us celebrating Lupercalia in response to all their valentine's day stuff, so we set up a table covered in candles and incense and posed for a photo of us cheerfully smiling as we rubbed milk on each other's faces with wool. I sent it to three couples, and I don't think a single one of them thought it was funny
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Aug 19, 2019 19:43
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twoday posted:One year, the day after valentine's day all of my friends were sending me these cheesy photos of them doing typical valentine's day stuff, having candlelit dinners and posing with flowers and such. Me and my girlfriend at the time had a pleasant low key date eating a nice meal but hadn't posed for any couple selfies. But this was the 15th, which is the date of Lupercalia, the Roman precursor to Valentine's day, so I thought it would be funny if we sent them a photo of us celebrating Lupercalia in response to all their valentine's day stuff, so we set up a table covered in candles and incense and posed for a photo of us cheerfully smiling as we rubbed milk on each other's faces with wool. I sent it to three couples, and I don't think a single one of them thought it was funny I think that's funny.
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Aug 19, 2019 19:44
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I'd probably need it explained but i appreciate it
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Aug 19, 2019 19:52
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twoday posted:One year, the day after valentine's day all of my friends were sending me these cheesy photos of them doing typical valentine's day stuff, having candlelit dinners and posing with flowers and such. Me and my girlfriend at the time had a pleasant low key date eating a nice meal but hadn't posed for any couple selfies. But this was the 15th, which is the date of Lupercalia, the Roman precursor to Valentine's day, so I thought it would be funny if we sent them a photo of us celebrating Lupercalia in response to all their valentine's day stuff, so we set up a table covered in candles and incense and posed for a photo of us cheerfully smiling as we rubbed milk on each other's faces with wool. I sent it to three couples, and I don't think a single one of them thought it was funny did you run naked through the streets slapping womens hands with leather straps so they can become pregnant/give birth easily? cause thats a big part of the festivities
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Aug 19, 2019 20:35
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twoday posted:I’m not positing any trans-oceanic journey, I think it could have been growing in Eurasia or Africa too. It completely slipped my mind about birds until last night. Bird-dispersal spread wild examples, so it could have spread domestic ones to Africa easily. It's not chilis, but the nene of Hawaii is descended from a breeding pair of Canadian geese that got blown of course, and there is the possible seal based transmission of TB to the Americas as other examples. Though if I may be honest, I find the methodology of the examination of the specimen too lacking in rigor, and they did not appear to open up the possibility of mixed contexts at all, which to be honest would have to be considered at Lund. If the specimens could be dated directly they also should have tried that, though it seems thet weren't suitable. They do appear to have dated organic material from the context, but it in a case like this the conservative choice would be to assume disturbance if indicated, try to directly date and move from there, which isn't mentioned. They also should attempt to find residue of Capiscum spp. on ceramics and other wares, which has been done in Mesoamerica. Given the uncertain Classic Period writing (which could apply to plants outside Capiscum spp., they are incredibly vague) they should also look for Capiscum spp. residue in finds of that era, and while I know such tests have been done on residue, never once have I found a reference to a find of Capiscum spp., just what one would expect to find. I hate to be the stodgey academic, but giant claims require giant proof, and while you would think direct physical samples would be it, the context and methodology are simply too suspect for me to accept.
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Aug 19, 2019 21:07
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These are all fair criticisms, I personally find the claims about ancient pepper descriptions to seem a bit sketchy, though I haven't read the sources that were mentioned myself. As for the archaeological aspects of the article, I would assume that the archaeologists made sure to check whether it was an intrusive layer of soil before this paper was written. And maybe it is written, in Swedish, which I can't read. But in any case the writer was a botanist and wouldn't be the one digging it up, he would just be analyzing what was found, and I'm sure if he was academically rigorous at all (which he seems to have been), this would also be the first question to cross his mind. KiteAuraan posted:I hate to be the stodgey academic, but giant claims require giant proof, and while you would think direct physical samples would be it, the context and methodology are simply too suspect for me to accept. This is kind of my point. I agree that giant claims need giant proof, but that's only possible if people are willing to even entertain the idea in the first place. I think they absolutely should check the pottery for traces and such, but I doubt they did, and I doubt they will. This writer seems to have produced a lot of other articles about historical botany, and none of the others I saw seem to be very controversial, I don't get the sense that he was doing this to try to rock the boat, I think he legitimately stumbled across something he had no explanation for and put this out there seeking answers. But if everyone takes the same attitude as you, they will never order those pots to be analyzed in this way, and chances at getting to the bottom of this become zero because everyone who reads stuff like this just shrugs it off. So I thank you for reading it and discussing it, I doubt that has happened much in the last 20 years. And as for your skepticism, which is warranted, consider this similar case: the link above posted:For the past few centuries Newbury pedestrians have been walking over the graves of syphilitic skeletons. academic source about pre-columbian syphilis in Europe So, luckily they were able to find multiple skeletons with very clear cases of syphilis, not just one or two, which would be analogous to our story about the pepper, and likely shrugged off. Even though any one of these skeletons show very clear signs of syphilis, people tend to shrug off things like this as anomalies without investigating further. Which is a shame, because you could hypothetically draw the same conclusions from two syphillitic pre-Columbian European skeletons as you could from 20. It's not a question of whether it's there or not; it's clearly and obviously there (just like out pepper). The question question is "How many disease-ridden skeletons must they find before I'm willing to question dogma?" Finally enough dead bodies were found for the stodgey academics to put down their pipes and get out of their velvet armchairs and begin engaging in discussion. These findings seem to answer an age-old riddle in epidemiology about whether syphilis came from America, and suggest the universalist theory of the origin of syphilis, that is present everywhere in the old world, and flared up when medieval Europeans began enslaving Africans. But anyway, they could have figured out the presence of syphilis with 2 skeletons or with 50, it doesn't matter, if there is proof, there is proof, and that should (in my eyes) be enough for people to consider it. So they only found peppers once, but they found them. That's not enough for me to be convinced that this was actually the case, but it's enough for me to keep it in the back of my mind and keep myself open to the possibility in the future. Of course, if we take the standard opinion that both syphilis and capsicum are native to the Americas, but also consider the verifiable existence of these syphilitic skeletons and peppers in 13th century Northern Europe to be true, Occam's razor would require us to consider the idea that there may have been some kind of pre-Columbian contact between northern Europe and the Americas. And there was! And it lead exactly towards Scandanavia, the area where the pepper was found. The idea of the Vikings reaching America before Columbus was stone-walled and dismissed for decades, but now it's considered the truth. It's now recognized that they colonized Canada. And there have even been discoveries of coins in New England and runes around America that seem like they could be credible, and suggest that they could have gone further, but those aren't taken seriously at this time, and not many scholars want to look into it. Though they have begrudgingly accepted that a small group of Vikings sailed thousands of miles in search of habitable land and ended up living in North America for centuries, the suggestion that they may have continued to sail southwards beyond the barren wastelands of Newfoundland to a place with a decent climate is for some reason beyond the realm of possibility. The idea that the viking explorers who reached Canada could have sailed further and reached capsicum country is, at this point, considered insane by many if not most. And indeed, one should wonder, if the Vikings reached america before Columbus, why isn't there more evidence of the so-called "Columbian Exchange" occuring at that time, with evidence of things like american plants or syphilis occurring in medieval Europe? Shouldn't we expect that? Well, we don't, and we don't wonder about that, because we still frame the American-European first contact around Columbus even though we know that is factually incorrect. And that's just the nature of academia, it makes it difficult to accept new ideas, and even more difficult to discard the influence of old ones. The thing is, evidence will continue to accumulate, the murky context will clear up, and the truth will eventually be known. How quickly that happens depends on how willing people are to consider new information and question their existing understanding of history. You have two options, personally. You can look at that pepper that has been found, analyzed by an expert in the field, subjected to peer review, and say, KiteAuraan posted:I hate to be the stodgey academic, but giant claims require giant proof, and while you would think direct physical samples would be it, the context and methodology are simply too suspect for me to accept. But you can also say, "that's fascinating, and though I don't have an explanation for this, we should investigate further." Which is what you also said, OP. To be clear, I'm not trying to dunk on you, but just using this as a rhetorical point so that I have a chance to vent about the close-mindedness of many scholars which I perceive as being a detriment to the search for the truth. If I was the chair of the archaeology department at the university where this was discovered (and had control over what the other people there did), I would set up a serious investigation into this immediately, and look for evidence which could resolve the matter one way or another. Giant claims require giant proof, indeed, so they also require giant efforts to find that proof. And if we have evidence that supports such a giant claim with potentially giant repercussions, I think it's worth a giant effort to figure it out. twoday has issued a correction as of 23:42 on Aug 19, 2019 |
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Aug 19, 2019 23:02
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etalian posted:I love how some of artwork was so risque they kept it roped off from the public. This is just Roman 4chan VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1824: Let everyone one in love come and see. I want to break Venus’ ribs with clubs and cripple the goddess’ loins. If she can strike through my soft chest, then why can’t I smash her head with a club? VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1864: Samius to Cornelius: go hang yourself! I’m partial to the Sumerian Innana (Or Ishtar) as others in the region would call her. Wisdom goddess (who may have inspired stories such as Pandora’s Box and Persephone’s descent into the Underworld) that may or may not have been worshipped with ritual sex rites and when Gilgamesh refused her sexual advances had his golem buddy murdered. Feisty Owl Woman. 
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Aug 19, 2019 23:54
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I just checked out hano Arizona on google maps. that looks unique but I have never ever heard of it; a town perched on a tiny narrow Mesa. ironically reminded me of a Spanish town around Sevilla that was perched on a Mesa Torpor has issued a correction as of 23:57 on Aug 19, 2019 |
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Aug 19, 2019 23:55
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Real hurthling! posted:did you run naked through the streets slapping womens hands with leather straps so they can become pregnant/give birth easily? Twoday, answer the question.
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Aug 20, 2019 00:18
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Real hurthling! posted:did you run naked through the streets slapping womens hands with leather straps so they can become pregnant/give birth easily? uhhh well, we did something similar to that perhaps, but not in the street I don't remember exactly, it was some years ago don't paganshame
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Aug 20, 2019 00:23
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Dreylad posted:i should do an effortpost about the incans. not an expert, just a big Fan. :palpatinedo it:
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Aug 20, 2019 00:33
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Torpor posted:I just checked out hano Arizona on google maps. that looks unique but I have never ever heard of it; a town perched on a tiny narrow Mesa. Hano exists where it does because of the Spanish. It was founded by Tewa refugees from the northern Rio Grande who fled there after the Pueblo Revolt and over time mingled with the Hopi population to become te Hopi-Tewa, a people with aspects of both Hopi and Tewa in their culture. The other villages of the Hopi Mesas vary in age, Oraibi is the oldest, founded around CE 1000 and inhabited ever since, the others are founded between then and CE 1300, save Hano and Kykotsmovi, the former founded in the late 1600s, the latter in 1906. You see mesa villages in defensible locations become a thing across the Pueblo world around CE 1150, because there is a marked increase in warfare and fear of warfare. The Chaco Regional System is reorganizing in the north, around Aztec, Salmon and other Great Houses in the Mesa Verde region, and they appear to be using violence to extract tribute to support the elite, rather than the old model of religious devotion and pilgrimage to the sacred Chaco Canyon. This is when you get most of the famous Mesa Verde and Kayenta cliff dwellings, large aggregated villages in Tusayan, Little Colorado, Cibola and Puerco River Valley peoples and also some early large villages such as Yucca House and Yellowjacket in the Montezuma Valley. To the west in canyon country of east Utah, and around Zuni and Hopi the mesa edge villages increase in number. There are some very, very, very large villages in the Mesa Verde region, that grow rapidly starting around CE 1240. This is a fascinating story. Prior to that the settlement pattern is small farmsteads of 3 to 12 rooms, spaced 2 to 7km apart and often clustered around Great Kivas or Great Houses. These were quite vulnerable to attack, and starting around CE 1150 you see attacks on these type of sites, sometimes with cannibalism and desecration of human remains in religious structures. At this same time, people aren't doing as much in Chaco Canyon anymore and the center is moving north. Now, Chaco Canyon seems to have had a small resident population of elites in the Great Houses, attached artisans in small sites, and some limited agriculture. But when maize remains from the area are tested, they have isotopes present suggesting they are grown in the Chuska Mountains, Mesa Verde or Zuni areas. Ceramics also fit this pattern, not just decorated examples, but everyday storage and cooking pots. In fact, turquoise jewelry seems to be the one big thing people in the canyon are doing. These objects come in during festivals and feasts, and then don't leave. They go into offerings in Great Houses or trash middens. But around CE 1150 drought hits, farmers cannot make the trips or support religious elites anymore, and why should they, the rituals are failing. So they stop as much devotion. My model is that a few people, willing to do violence, stay in the system, and the elite, after about 250 years of control, turn to using violence and their enforcers to strike fear and try to get buyback into the system. It works for a while, especially in the north. New Great Houses are founded like Aztec, and old ones like Mitchell Springs Pueblo A and Lowry see new growth and patterns similar to the canyon. People who seem not to want to engage this system move to cliff dwellings on Mesa Verde, or into large villages like Los Gigantes in the El Morro Valley. Other people engage with the new elite, the Aztec Regional System (no relation to the Nahua Aztecs of Mesoamerica). But by CE 1240 people seem tired of this setup and the raids. Mitchell Springs Pueblo A is the big piece of evidence for this hypothesis. Around that time the Great House, which has 30-odd rooms, but never more than 3 habitation rooms (the rest are storage rooms) is attacked. It is burnt, explodes from the heat and the remaining elite living in Pueblo A and adjacent Great Houses are found thrown into an old Great Kiva. They were burnt, cooked and eaten. They are men, women and children. This matches patterns at small house, non-elite sites. It appears someone, likely farmers, launched an uprising. Right after this, almost all the small house sites are abandoned. Yucca House and Yellowjacket both grow in size, and a TON of new, very large, canyon-side defensible villages are founded. These include Sand Canyon Pueblo, Goodman Point Pueblo and many others. For the next 40 years, these sites grow and persist, seeming to fear attack. Drought is gripping the area, violence not directed by an elite is increasing, and the likely allies of Mitchell Springs, living at Aztec West and East, and seemingly Salmon, are a few days march away and could attack. So people live in crowded sites, develop new kiva-based rituals and village-level integration. Some interesting D-shaped structures and Great Kivas, which formerly seem to have been associated with Chaco elites become democratized at sites like Sand Canyon. Eventually, warfare and social balkanization become too great, buffers to famine seem to collapse, the large sites are reduced to a few holdout people and massacres occur as the last residents not to leave the region are killed. This is a general model and needs to be tested further, but it fits the evidence in the Mesa Verde and Northern San Juan regions. After is the Great Migration, where not only those regions, but also the Kayenta and Chuska regions, where there is far less evidence for war and populist uprising (Kayenta people never buy into Chaco at any time), empty out. People go everywhere, into the Rio Grande where the Tewa Pueblos are founded, down to Acoma and Zuni, across to the edge of the Southern Plains in the Salinas District, into the bootheel of New Mexico around the Upper Gila, up to the Safford Basin in east Arizona, further west to the San Pedro River Valley, into the Tonto Basin where Hohokam people live, into the Sinagua communities of the Verde Valley, the White Mountains of Arizona, the Little Colorado River Valley and the Hopi Mesas. Out of this emerge the modern Katsina religions and also the Salado Horizon, which is an inclusive populist ideology that emerges in the White Mountains, marked by a distinct series of polychrome ceramics. Whatever the ideology represents it is able to exist alongside the Kiva-and-Plaza religious systems of the Pueblos, the Platform Mounds of the Hohokam, and the Ballcourt-Plaza-Platform Mound complex of Casas Grandes. It crosscuts clear ethnic and ideological differnences and seems to be organized at the household level. It also clearly relates to a Katsinam-related iconographic complex found on Jeddito Yellow Ware, Zuni Glaze Ware, Rio Grande Glaze Ware, White Mountain Red Ware and Rio Grande White Ware ceramics. But it also occurs at Hohokam, where they do their own thing involving platform mounds, plazas, slipped red wares without painted designs and other things that are more Mesoamerican. Eventually everyone ends up either at Hopi, Zuni, Acoma, along the Rio Grande, along the San Pedro, in the Tucson Basin, along the Middle Gila River or over on the Lower Colorado River near Yuma. And that is what the Spanish enter into and invade.
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Aug 20, 2019 00:48
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KiteAuraan posted:Hano exists where it does because of the Spanish. I guess the magic clowns weren’t enough 
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Aug 20, 2019 00:54
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Dreylad posted:i should do an effortpost about the incans. not an expert, just a big Fan. yeah do it, this is c-spam, you don't need credentials
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Aug 20, 2019 00:56
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wait the peasants attacked the ruling people’s fancy Pueblo-manor houses and threw them in the church-kivas and torched the place? this sounds like a very cspam story. is that what happened? nobody can tell us different!
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Aug 20, 2019 01:09
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This is a bit less obscure than a few of the things we've talked about so far, but I want to talk a bit about how late Republican Rome was in many ways a libertarian paradise, and not just because of the slavery, rampant patriarchy, and lack of age of consent laws! As primary example, meet Marcus Licinius Crassus. Crassus was widely know as the richest man in Rome, and though whether or not he was remains up for debate, he was immensely wealthy. To hear him tell it, he was a self-made man, as his family had been prominent previously but he'd blown most of their fortune building his own private armies during the First Civil War. He'd backed the right horse, however, in Lucius Cornelius Sulla, and made a lot of the next round of proscriptions Sulla issued against the losers of the war. However, the thing Crassus did that probably earned him the most, and certainly made him the most notorious, was his private firefighting scheme. Despite being as big and sophisticated as urban Rome was, there wasn't much of what we'd call public services in the first century BCE (the Vigiles not being formed until the reign of Augustus), and fires were common. Crassus, clever fellow that he was, saw this as a business opportunity, and trained some of his (many) slaves in firefighting techniques. Whenever a big fire broke out, he'd rush to the scene, but rather than fight the fire, he's offer to buy the currently-burning house from its owners for a scandalously low price, and if they refused he'd wait until it burned to the ground and then offer an even lower price for the rubble. He'd then either send in his slave fire brigade to save the newly-purchased building, or rebuild it if it'd burned down, and either rent out (often to the original owners) or flip the property for its actual market price, predictably making bank. His death is also memorable. He died fighting the Parthians in an attempt to gain martial parity with the other two Triumvirs he was sharing power with (Caesar and Pompey), and according to some versions of the story they either killed him by forcing him to drink molten gold, or poured it down his throat after he was already dead.
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Aug 20, 2019 01:20
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Torpor posted:wait the peasants attacked the ruling people’s fancy Pueblo-manor houses and threw them in the church-kivas and torched the place? this sounds like a very cspam story. It is one possibility. The other is as the environment declined, people just started engaging in greater warfare. That is the seeming pattern in other regions, the Mesa Verde data is just, different, in some ways. This model could be revised a lot if work at some other late Great Houses in the area, or even the other 5 Great Houses at Mitchell Springs finds something different. All we know for sure is there is a marked increase in violence in Pueblo III as the Chaco Regional System declines and reorganizes, it starts against small farmsteads, moves to Great Houses and ends at large villages. It could be Mitchell Springs Pueblo A was attacked by people from Aztec even, it's just that the patterns that come after the tree-ring and radiocarbon dated end of Pueblo A are well, interesting. It really does seem to mark a turning point in regional organization on the landscape and an even greater concern with defense than Early Pueblo III. The old "drought only" model has been called into question on the basis of there being an environment to sustain people past CE 1280, but everyone Pueblo is gone by then and it's not the Ute and Diné that pushed them to leave. Something social happened. What is still open.
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Aug 20, 2019 01:35
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Captain_Maclaine posted:This is a bit less obscure than a few of the things we've talked about so far, but I want to talk a bit about how late Republican Rome was in many ways a libertarian paradise, and not just because of the slavery, rampant patriarchy, and lack of age of consent laws! As primary example, meet Marcus Licinius Crassus. At least one rich rear end in a top hat in history got what he deserved
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Aug 20, 2019 01:37
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caesar: lemme get swole fighting barbarians for most of a decade pompey: lemme get swole fighting near eastern buffer states and align closely with the optimate senate oligarchy to become their champion crassus: [drunk from sucking the life out of syria after pompey conquered it] imma speed run it guys! perseoplis or bust!
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Aug 20, 2019 01:45
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quote:The Roman poet Martialis (around the 1st century) described "Pipervee crudum" (raw pepper) to be long and containing seeds. that just sounds like long pepper
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Aug 20, 2019 02:04
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Crassus was a douche https://youtu.be/ouDfr9Jh0s8
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Aug 20, 2019 02:13
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the gracchi were the tribunes of c-spam
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Aug 20, 2019 02:16
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Samog posted:that just sounds like long pepper eh sort of, long pepper doesn't really have seeds per se, and definitely doesn't "contain them" that's not important, what is more important in this case is that any roman writing about pepper would have definitely known about long pepper (Piper longum) and probably wouldn't invent a new name (Piper crudum) for a common spice like I said, I don't find the ancient descriptions of pepper that were presented as very convincing, but then again I haven't read the original sources he was referring to so I find it hard to say anything for sure I don't think they had chilis in antiquity, though who knows. What seems much more likely to me is an earlier date of "columbian exchange" facilitated by viking trade networks twoday has issued a correction as of 02:21 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 02:18
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The problem with that hypothesis is the short duration of occupation at L'Anse Aux Meadows (about 60 years), the low intensity of occupation at that village (50-200 people at most) and the total lack of non-fraudulent or certain Norse sites south of that site (all runestones are either known frauds or likely frauds, Ken Feder's book "Frauds, Myths and Mysteries" goes into it in detail). They did seem to have trade ties from Greenland to Inuit groups, but that is too far north for chili. And the Atlantic coast is too well known from decades of CRM archaeology work, there is a total lack of anything but Indigenous trade networks. Which are large, like, Florida to Quebec large, and those did move Spanish material north decades before anyone saw a European. None of those areas had the right species of chili either, save wild C. annum in Florida. Coastal Mesoamerica is also well known enough to rule out Pre-Cortez European contact. The stories of a White Bearded God only appear in Spanish records, decades after the invasion and no one resembling European shows up in the the many vivid art pieces of Mesoamerica. The eastern coast of South America is less well understood, but would have been a more difficult undertaking for Norse sailors than reaching the Mesoamerican Gulf Coast. If those chilis are not intrusive (a big if, I showed it to a Swedish-speaking friend who expressed concerns similar to mine and works in the region) I would argue for bird-aided dispersal as some migratory birds got blown across the ocean, a well documented phenomena. What the Roman sourcr describes also matches A. melegueta, native to West Africa is likely the "African pepper" of Pliny. So while the hypothesis you posit is intriguing, again it has next to no evidence. The standards for evidence in archaeology are huge, isolated occurrences are not taken as good evidence outside very special cases. As an example, I worked at a Pueblo I site. In the fill of a room we found pieces of Pueblo III ceramics, well dated by decades of thousands of examples coming from single component sites with good tree-ring and radiocarbon dates. Now, one answer is the styles are centuries older, based on only a few sherds. But looking at the site. it was occupied from CE 500-900 or so, and again from CE 1050-1240, and again in modern times. Ample admixture had occurred and the sherds are therefore most likely, almost certainly, intrusive. Similar problems are common in Hohokam archaeology, for example Historic horse bones mixed into ancient fill, or 1870s ceramics associated with CE 1000s ones. It could simply be as you say, that research isn't directed that way. Yet in the thousands of excavations across Eurasia, including very well preserved Viking Era and Classical sites, there is no other instance of Pre-Columbus Eurasian capiscum I am aware of. Either evidence is being covered up (unlikely), preservation is rare (possible) or it is admixture into an older context (most likely).
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Aug 20, 2019 03:11
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publius "pretty boy" clodius pulcher is more of an ironic populares, than the sincere gracchi but he did more for the poor as a troll than either gracchi did and the story is a wild testament to the breakdown of the republic during the triumvirate. a nobleman -a claudian - by birth, pulcher (which means "beautiful man") was embroiled in a sex scandal where he dressed as a woman to get into an all female religious service and attempt to gently caress caesars first wife, pompeia - but was caught by guards and also charged with loving his own sister being a wealthy rear end in a top hat known to charm the pants off both women and men, and one of caesar's and the other triumvirs' friends he fought the charges and even had Caesar's help (caesar used the opportunity to divorce his wife claiming he couldnt be married to someone unless they were above suspicion of adultery...almost as if it was all a set up to get caesar out of the marriage faultlessly...) anyway it was all going well until cicero's wife, terrentia got mad. she forced cicero to turn his powerful rhetoric against pulcher because she hated pulcher's sister and wanted to ruin pulcher to hurt his lover/sister. so cicero gets up and embarrasses pulcher, really savages him and only the complete bribery of the jury by crassus is enough to win him his freedom. instead of slinking off to gently caress his sister in obscurity however, pretty boy had a plan. he was going to ruin ciceros life. so publius claudius pulcher, a nobleman, was no more. reborn as publius clodius pulcher [  ] after an illegal adoption by a plebeian family that was rubber stamped by caesar and crassus, our pretty boy was suddenly eligible to run for tribune of the plebs! pulcher knew he could pound sand as one vote in a senate that despised him, but as tribune, as agent of caesar's will with crassus' unlimited cash and the sacrosanct rights of office making him untouchable and able to strike down any law and make sweeping changes...he could do some loving damage. the election was bought and paid for and romes lower classes found itself represented by a blue blooded sex freak bent on giving them everything they had wanted for the past 80 years (short of land redistribution) for the sole purpose of driving an old conservative gas bag crazy. what does he do? >grain subsidy becomes grain dole - free food! > made it illegal to stop the meeting of plebeian political assemblies on the pretext that their were inauspicious religious omens that day (a tool that had been used to neuter what little power the assemblies had by making them unable to meet) >strikes down limits on forming trade guilds which he supports and expands to become his own private army of street fighters, body guards, and goons to terrorize the agents of his senatorial adversaries. >crafted a law specifically to exile cicero for ordering executions without evidence in the catilinarian affair >required that cicero stay 400 miles away from rome >order the destruction of all of ciceros properties within that cordon at the hands of his goons > building a temple to the goddess of freedom on the site of ciceros townhouse so that he couldnt ever get it back even if pulcher were ever killed it went great until pompey got cold feet. the senate was livid. caesar and crassus' support of pulcher was a bad look for the triumvirate. pulcher was becoming too powerful and going to far. pulchers term of office ended and the triumvirs turned their support towards a less radical agent that didnt hate ciceros guts. pulcher proved pompey right by harassing and sending goons to kill pompey, unsuccessfully. upon hearing that cicero was allowed to return pulcher personally went to assault workers rebuilding one of his homes. he was confronted by cicero and attacked the old bitch, knocking him out of the way and burning down the worksite himself before retiring. he was later killed on the road while traveling with a smaller than usual retinue of guards by the very man who replaced him in the tribuneship, an agent of cicero's named milo anyway its pretty hosed up that social change in rome in the late republic was only possible via an upperclass grudge gone out of control. Real hurthling! has issued a correction as of 03:20 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 03:16
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oh and cicero defended milo in court for the murder but its said pulcher's mob was heckling him so hard that nobody could hear the defense and milo got exiled.
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Aug 20, 2019 04:11
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KiteAuraan posted:the Atlantic coast is too well known from decades of CRM archaeology work, there is a total lack of anything but Indigenous trade networks. Which are large, like, Florida to Quebec large, and those did move Spanish material north decades before anyone saw a European. You just presented a great explanation of how dried chili peppers could have been found in northern Canada at the time the vikings were living there, in a way I hadn't previously considered. Of course it makes sense that spices would have been some of the most valuable trade goods which got the furthest milage. Some of the possibilities raised by recent excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows suggest there could have been a later reoccurrence of Norse habitation there in the 13th century (or not), and both the 11th and 13th century dates match perfectly with the other plants that were used to contextually date the Swedish pepper. I'm going to turn my attention towards indigenous pepper trade now, that makes a lot of sense, thank you twoday has issued a correction as of 05:38 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 05:34
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These aren't trade networks as you'd normally think. Indigenous trade networks in North America outside Mesoamerica are not formally organized, rather the long distance networks are more down-the-line, involving socially motivated movements of special objects. Think native copper or ceramic vessels. Even the Southwest-Mesoamerica network seems to work on these general principles. It's why the movement of foodstuffs, as best I can tell and outside the potlatch, over 60km at most. They're sometimes called interaction spheres, Hopewell being an example. It is durable objects of power or objects associated with status like cacao that move in them, not common spices. There also is a general ignorance of Capiscum and other more southern foods in the more northern societies at contact. As mentioned, even the groups in that Southwest that do seem to have directly interacted with Mesoamerica, like the Hohokam, do not appear to obtain peppers.
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Aug 20, 2019 05:46
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when i started really learning about roman history i had a vague sense that it sure was a shame the roman republic had to end like that but as i learn more and more i get the sense that the roman aristocracy/senate just really sucked poo poo
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Aug 20, 2019 05:51
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"Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Muscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, situated north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China." - Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. III, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887. Now compare to the description given by Wikipedia, "Tartary (Latin: Tartaria) or Great Tartary (Latin: Tartaria Magna) was a name used from the Middle Ages until the twentieth century to designate the great tract of northern and central Asia stretching from the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountains to the Pacific Ocean, settled mostly by Turko-Mongol peoples after the Mongol invasion and the subsequent Turkic migrations." Tartary was not a great tract. It was a country. And to add some credibility (or to take away some) to the story, below you can find an excerpt from the CIA document declassified in 1998, and created in 1957.  Though I do not think that Tartary was solely Muslim. It rather was multi-religious, and multi-cultural. One of the reasons I think so is the tremendous disparity between what leaders like Genghis Khan, Batu Khan, Timur aka Tamerlane looked like to the contemporary artists vs. the appearance attributed to them today. The Coverup The official history is hiding a major world power which existed as late as the 19th century. Tartary was a country with its own flag, its own government and its own place on the map. Its territory was huge, but somehow quietly incorporated into Russia, and some other countries. This country you can find on the maps predating the second half of the 19th century.  Tartary had its own language, flag, crest, its own emperor, and of course its own people.  There is a growing opinion in Russia that French invasion of Russia played out according to a different scenario. The one where Tsar Alexander I, and Napoleon were on the same side. Together they fought against Tartary. Essentially France and Saint Petersburg against Moscow (Tartary). And there is a strong circumstantial evidence to support such a theory. 1. The capitol of Russia was Saint Petersburg. Yet Napoleon chooses to attack Moscow. Why? 2. It appears that in 1912 there was a totally different recollection of the events of 1812. How else could you explain commemorative 1912 medals honoring Napoleon? Specifically the one with Alexander I, and Napoleon on the same medal. The below medal says something similar to, "Strength is in the unity: will of God, firmness of royalty, love for homeland and people"  3. Similarity between Russian and French uniforms. There are more different uniforms involved, but the idea remains, they were ridiculously similar.  There was one additional combat asset officially available to Russians in the war of 1812. And that was the Militia. It does appear that this so-called Militia, was in reality the army of Tartary fighting against Napoleon and Alexander I.  4. Russian nobility in Saint Petersburg spoke French in the 18th/19th centuries. The general explanation was, that it was the trend of time and fashion. Summary: I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to justify a deeper look into who fought who, and why this Tartary country is so little known about. And the main question out of this all should be what is the purpose of misleading generations of people? It appears there is something tremendously serious hidden in our recent history.
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Aug 20, 2019 06:20
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oh christ
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Aug 20, 2019 06:42
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is there a post w/ book recs yet especially looking for interesting deep dives on pre-historic civs, the more obscure the better
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Aug 20, 2019 06:51
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gently caress you
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Aug 20, 2019 07:38
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please change "works" to "posts" in the thread title
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Aug 20, 2019 08:15
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what are some cracked out alternative history narratives that are somewhat plausible
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Aug 20, 2019 11:05
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What happened to the mississipian mound builders Also that tartar theory is good stuff
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Aug 20, 2019 13:15
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Socks4Hands posted:please change "works" to "posts" in the thread title
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Aug 20, 2019 13:26
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Lol what a pack of stupid bullshit.
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Aug 20, 2019 13:59
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