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Chev posted:In 2-3-4-5, automapping is available through the cartographer skill, which you'll have to learn (usually pretty close to your starting point) if none of your party members have it from the get go (Sorcerers do in 3-4-5). Conversely, if all of your cartographers are KO, your automap won't update. There's also the wizard eye spell that offers you a top down view of the surrounding squares but doesn't actually add them to the map. Cool, any advice for starting characters. I'm phone posting but when I get home I'll probably start a game of either 3 or 4+5 depending which I own.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:19
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Skwirl posted:Cool, any advice for starting characters. I'm phone posting but when I get home I'll probably start a game of either 3 or 4+5 depending which I own. Doesn't really matter TBH as long as you don't do something weird like an all-Sorcerer party. (And even that might be doable) M&M 3-5 are fun and interesting but combat is about as deep as a puddle. Character progression is mostly drinking out of fountains to boost stats and equipping incrementally better loot, and combat is mostly holding down the "A" key until everything dies. Survival is not particularly difficult and min-maxing isn't really needed at all.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:15
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Skwirl posted:Cool, any advice for starting characters. I'm phone posting but when I get home I'll probably start a game of either 3 or 4+5 depending which I own. 3 allows for hirelings who's costs increase the higher level they are. You can have a max of 8 characters, 6 PCs and 2 hirelings. A typical party usually has: 2-3 fighter or fighter/caster hybrids, 2-3 casters, 1 Ninja or Robber and one of your choice. 4 & 5 only allow for 6 PCs. A basic overview: Knight = Pure Fighter with weapon focus Barbarian = Pure Fighter with HP focus, but doesn't have access to as much gear as the knight. Paladin = Fighter/Cleric Archer = Fighter/Sorcerer Ranger = Fighter/Druid Druid = Some Cleric + Sorc and they have some unique spells in 3 Sorc = Focus on Damage spells Cleric = Focus on Healing spells Robber = More thievery, less fighting Ninja = More fighting, less thievery A typical 6 man team is: Knight/Paladin/Archer/Robber/Sorc/Cleric Although you may want to change that in 3 to: Paladin/Archer/Robber/Druid/Sorc/Cleric as certain spells like Water Walking are only available for Rangers and Druids in 3. Typically it's best to fill in the hireling slots with a Barb/Knight & a Sorc/Cleric if you want to have more healing or damage. In 4 and 5 Rangers & Druids don't have any unique spells and just draw from Sorc & Cleric pools. Kuros fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 22:53
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Yeah, in 3 I'd advise getting at least a robber/ninja for the thievery skill, which can only otherwise be learned in an inconvenient place, and a druid/ranger for water walking (which is a must-have in MM3). You can compensate deficiencies with Hirelings, which can become expensive in the long run, or by rolling an extra character anytime during the game but it'll be a pain to level them up and get them the appropriate titles. Much simpler to have them from the get go. My usual party layout is knight/paladin/ranger/robber/cleric/sorcerer but there's lots of room for other approaches.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:59
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I think that pure melee classes are boring, so I've always enjoyed playing with three pure casters (So, Cl, Dr) and 3 hybrids (Pa, Ra, Ar). I've never been one to care about min-maxing, but the games basically require that the party have a lockpicker so I usually go Pa/Ar/Ra/Ni/So/Cl. I don't remember if they changed Druids in the later games, but druids in 3 are kind of crap. Rangers give you the unique spells and are good in a fight.
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Aug 22, 2019 00:50
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Ranger/Druid line is a waste imo. I also never used hirelings in 3 other than to steal their inventory. Edit-also, roll them dice! It's entirely possible to get starting guys with like two 18+ and some 16s if you keep clicking that button
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Aug 22, 2019 00:58
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JustJeff88 posted:It's basically this. Wizardry 8, as others have said, is excellent to this day. I still very much enjoy the Eye of the Beholder trilogy too. Also, while they are rarely talked about, the Ravenloft/Menzoberranzan/Ravenloft trilogy is still very fun and accessible in my opinion. The graphics don't look too bad, the interface is easy to grasp, Baldur's Gate has kept 2e D&D relevant... they are very much worth a try so far as I see it. Wizardry 8 is the one game in the series I've been the most interested in playing. I did try starting it once, but I only got partway through the first dungeon before my characters started dying, and I haven't touched it since then. It's one of those games where I'm never confident I've got an appropriate party, since there's so many classes and races, and no way to tell if you've built a character appropriately or not. I also feel obligated to play through Wizardry 6 and 7, partly because I bought in GOG, but also so I can import a party throughout, as I think there's some special items and equipment you can only get with a imported party. However, Wizardry 6 seems really clunky and archaic (even for the time), and while I've read Wizardry 7 is better, it's also a huge game. It's the kind of game I wouldn't want to tackle unless I bought Grid Cartographer (hell, I just want to buy Grid Cartographer regardless, because it looks super cool.) I have actually played through the Baldur's Gate series (I think I finished it either late last year, or early this year), though it was...eh...I have some mixed opinions on it. I considered myself done with BG, until I saw Siege of Dragonspear* go on sale for cheap, so now I have to play through BG1 again to play SoD, and I guess now there's going to be a Baldur's Gate 3, and oh god I'm never gonna be done with this series!  Actually, that reminds me that I started Planescape Torment EE a month or two ago. I should probably get back to playing that. * In my head, I keep wanting to write it as 'Dragonsphere', until I realize that was an adventure game by Microprose. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Aug 22, 2019 |
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Aug 22, 2019 01:54
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Max Wilco posted:Wizardry 8 is the one game in the series I've been the most interested in playing. I did try starting it once, but I only got partway through the first dungeon before my characters started dying, and I haven't touched it since then. It's one of those games where I'm never confident I've got an appropriate party, since there's so many classes and races, and no way to tell if you've built a character appropriately or not. Don't feel bad. I've got the same problem. Multiple half-assed attempts with Wizardry 8 despite owning multiple copies of it, currently stuck on Wizardry 4 before I can give Wiz5/6/7 + 8 a serious go. Did the same thing with Larian's Divinity series. Divine Divinity was really drat good, Beyond Divinity sucked but it was really a bleeding edge alpha of Divinity: Original Sin 1, Divinity 2 was meh (dragon parts in the expansion were so godawful it dragged down the rest of the game for me), while I burned out on/actively started hating Divinity: OS 1 and own Divinity: OS2 but refuse to install it because I hated the last 10% of Original Sin 1 so loving much. As a bonus for any Wizardry fans, did you know that the CULT OF THE DEAD COW's (a 1980s's super-group of computer hackers + Beto O'Rourke ....yes seriously, Beto O'Rourke) 2nd + 3rd official text file dumps were a Wizardry 1 game guide (cDc-0002.txt) and a Wizardry 1 spell list(cDc-0003.txt)?
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Aug 22, 2019 02:31
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Max Wilco posted:Wizardry 8 is the one game in the series I've been the most interested in playing. I did try starting it once, but I only got partway through the first dungeon before my characters started dying, and I haven't touched it since then. It's one of those games where I'm never confident I've got an appropriate party, since there's so many classes and races, and no way to tell if you've built a character appropriately or not. Wizardry 7 Gold, which has an automap, sadly has a bug that can render the game unwinnable. I'm one of those people who loathes the idea of writing my own maps.
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Aug 22, 2019 02:49
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Wiz8 is just a magnificent game. Don’t worry too much about party creation since you can recruit two NOCs of pretty much any class, and they’ll go most areas with you. Only thing I’d caution is that single class mages, alchemists, and psionics are pretty bad. And that you need SOMEONE to do thiefy stuff, but that’s any old school RPG. There’s a recruitable rogue in the first town. Just gotta best the giant cockroach in the starter dungeon,
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Aug 22, 2019 03:17
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:currently stuck on Wizardry 4  Oh cripes, really? Man, good luck with that. Everything I've read about that game makes it sound like it is legendary in its difficulty. The original Apple II version (?) is even more rough, since Trebor tracks you in real time, rather than based on your movements.NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Did the same thing with Larian's Divinity series. Divine Divinity was really drat good, Beyond Divinity sucked but it was really a bleeding edge alpha of Divinity: Original Sin 1, Divinity 2 was meh (dragon parts in the expansion were so godawful it dragged down the rest of the game for me), while I burned out on/actively started hating Divinity: OS 1 and own Divinity: OS2 but refuse to install it because I hated the last 10% of Original Sin 1 so loving much. Divinity is yet another series I've bought several installments of, but have not yet actually played, outside of the first twenty minutes of Divinity 2: Director's Cut (I'd make a drinking game out of 'RPGs I've bought, but not yet tackled', but I'd be dead within minutes). I have D:OS 1, but I haven't picked up 2 yet. Original Sin I've heard described as the modern take on Ultima 7. Is the last 10% of OS1 really difficult, or is something that involves spoilers? JustJeff88 posted:Wizardry 7 Gold, which has an automap, sadly has a bug that can render the game unwinnable. I'm one of those people who loathes the idea of writing my own maps. That's what I've read about W7 Gold: it's buggy and ugly looking compared to the original DOS version. There's the Saturn and PS1 versions, but those are Japanese-only, and I don't think there's an English patch for them. Once again, making maps is yet again something I have mixed feelings about. It can be annoying when a game doesn't keep track of information for you, but there is something satisfying about taking notes and making maps. I think it helps engage you into the game more, and after you're done, it serves as a memento, or something you can share with others. I bought a box copy of Myst a few years back, and inside were the previous owners notes for all the puzzles, which were fun to look through (as well as being a lot cleaner and nicer looking than the ones I made.) I don't know what it is, but there's something really I find entertaining about looking at other people's scratch notes and maps for games. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Aug 22, 2019 |
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Aug 22, 2019 04:13
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D:OS1 definitely has some U7 in its DNA. They also lift a couple music queues straight out of U7 and it makes me happy every time I hear them. Maybe that's why I actually prefer the first game a little over the second. One thing I recommend about playing old CRPGs for the first time is don't be afraid of walkthroughs. Back in the day we had tons of time and could bang our head against problems for days. Now, you are just gonna move on to something else in your Steam backlog. Make a good effort then look up the solution and journey on. I'd also take someone's recommended party wholesale and just tweak it to fit what you like. That'll shave a dozen+ hours of restarts everyone did back in the day. As part of a dev thing I pushed a couple people to try to play a bunch of old CRPGs. The only game any of them connected to was Wizardry 8. It helps the UI isn't bad, but everyone really liked the party voices and banter. I wish another game would try that with created characters. It was a nice middle ground between entirely pre-written characters and totally blank goons you push through a dungeon.
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Aug 22, 2019 04:27
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Max Wilco posted:
Yeah, Wiz4 is rough. Only reason I've been able to play Wizardry 1-4 serially was by tracking down and purchasing a copy of the Ultimate Wizardry Archives from ebay/amazon. The Ultimate Wizardry Archives CDROM has full versions of Wizardry 1 through 7 plus Wizardry Gold and a pdf of all Wizardry 1-7/WizGold game manuals. Even in the enhanced edition, the last 10% of D:OS1 is a series of long artificially extended boss fights. I was burnt out on the combat in D:OS1 beforehand, so the last 10% of D:OS1 was where I actively started hating the game/wanting it to be over already.
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Aug 22, 2019 05:41
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JustJeff88 posted:I think that pure melee classes are boring, so I've always enjoyed playing with three pure casters (So, Cl, Dr) and 3 hybrids (Pa, Ra, Ar). I've never been one to care about min-maxing, but the games basically require that the party have a lockpicker so I usually go Pa/Ar/Ra/Ni/So/Cl. I don't remember if they changed Druids in the later games, but druids in 3 are kind of crap. Rangers give you the unique spells and are good in a fight. Rangers and Druids are actually worse in 4/5 than 3, since they no longer have any unique spells at all; they just get all the low-level spells from the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists. They seem great early on but hit a wall around mid-lategame in Clouds or pretty early on in Darkside where they just stop getting access to new spells; in Clouds you can sorta argue it as balancing earlygame versatility vs. lategame power if you're feeling particularly generous, but in Darkside they're just not good. A Ranger can remain viable as a physical combatant with some utility magic, but I'd still rather have an Archer or Paladin. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Aug 22, 2019 |
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Aug 22, 2019 08:27
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I tried playing Wizardry 6 and 7 and just couldn't be bothered. Wizardry 8 is fantastic without needing to have played either. Game advice to make fights more winnable: restructure your party formation to not use the front segment at all - spread your melee fighters across the middle segment and the two wings - toughest fighters on the sides - and hide your missile units or mages in the back. Always fight with your butt jammed into a corner.
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Aug 22, 2019 08:31
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Max Wilco posted:That's what I've read about W7 Gold: it's buggy and ugly looking compared to the original DOS version. There's the Saturn and PS1 versions, but those are Japanese-only, and I don't think there's an English patch for them. Wiz7 Gold doesn’t have any game-breaking bugs that the original DOS version didn’t have, but its real issue is that the Diplomacy skill is broken. You can live without it but it limits your options a lot. Also DOS Wiz7 has an automap too—it’s just a little less accessible in that you have to use an item to pull it up rather than being a constantly-there window. I’ve completed Wiz7 quite a few times and never once had to draw my own maps. It is a gigantic game though.
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Aug 22, 2019 13:40
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everyone should at least try a single-party importing playthrough of Wizardry 6 - 8, it's a super rewarding experience. I like both 7 and 8 equally for different reasons, I think
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Aug 22, 2019 14:09
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FuzzySlippers posted:D:OS1 definitely has some U7 in its DNA. They also lift a couple music queues straight out of U7 and it makes me happy every time I hear them. Maybe that's why I actually prefer the first game a little over the second. Even though it wasn't particularly deep, I felt the Wiz8 banter added a lot to the party. It was especially fun on a replay when you realized just how right they could be (the new agey voice outright spoils the end game twist at one point).
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Aug 22, 2019 16:24
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I tried to play Ultima 7 with Exult, but I was so scared of the "randomly lose key items" bug that I lost my bottle and gave up. My impression of U7 was that it's an impressive narrative feat and a remarkable technical achievement for its time, but it's not much of an actual game-game, by which I mean that the parts requiring human input and interaction are sorely lacking. Your mileage may vary.Thuryl posted:Rangers and Druids are actually worse in 4/5 than 3, since they no longer have any unique spells at all; they just get all the low-level spells from the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists. They seem great early on but hit a wall around mid-lategame in Clouds or pretty early on in Darkside where they just stop getting access to new spells; in Clouds you can sorta argue it as balancing earlygame versatility vs. lategame power if you're feeling particularly generous, but in Darkside they're just not good. A Ranger can remain viable as a physical combatant with some utility magic, but I'd still rather have an Archer or Paladin. You're right; I had forgotten that they lose their uniqueness in 4&5. There is a very good patch by a guy named Jeff Ludwig for 3 and 4&5 that makes druids and rangers much more balanced though. I recommend it heartily if you've played the base game a bunch and want to shake things up. Genpei Turtle posted:Wiz7 Gold doesn’t have any game-breaking bugs that the original DOS version didn’t have, but its real issue is that the Diplomacy skill is broken. You can live without it but it limits your options a lot. That was the bug that I was trying to remember; thank you for clarifying. Max Wilco posted:(I'd make a drinking game out of 'RPGs I've bought, but not yet tackled', but I'd be dead within minutes) If we were both playing, you'd land on my corpse.
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Aug 22, 2019 23:40
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Thuryl posted:Rangers and Druids are actually worse in 4/5 than 3, since they no longer have any unique spells at all; they just get all the low-level spells from the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists. They seem great early on but hit a wall around mid-lategame in Clouds or pretty early on in Darkside where they just stop getting access to new spells; in Clouds you can sorta argue it as balancing earlygame versatility vs. lategame power if you're feeling particularly generous, but in Darkside they're just not good. A Ranger can remain viable as a physical combatant with some utility magic, but I'd still rather have an Archer or Paladin. Yep, Rangers/Druids are useless in MM 4 and 5. However MM6 is where Druids shine. JustJeff88 posted:You're right; I had forgotten that they lose their uniqueness in 4&5. There is a very good patch by a guy named Jeff Ludwig for 3 and 4&5 that makes druids and rangers much more balanced though. I recommend it heartily if you've played the base game a bunch and want to shake things up. The mods can be found here: http://www.jeffludwig.com/xeen/ One change I really like from the Xeen mod: "Robert the Burgler has been added in the town of Vertigo! He'll teach you Thievery skill if you lack a natural brigand in your party makeup... if you got the gold." Now you can have your Kni/Barb/Pal/Arc/Sor/Cler team!
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Aug 22, 2019 23:52
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Kuros posted:The mods can be found here: http://www.jeffludwig.com/xeen/ I had forgotten about that! It is indeed a great feature. Mind you, I don't know how much that training costs... That mod would be perfect for an all-caster Pal/Arc/Ran/Dru/Cle/Sor team, because Rangers and Druids are much better than they are in vanilla.
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Aug 23, 2019 00:19
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FairGame posted:Wiz8 is just a magnificent game. This isn't entirely true. Pure psionics are bad (because psionics is the worst school and monks rock) but all the pure casters benefit from that 25% extra skill in their casting school, which lets them go above level 100 in those skills, which lets them hit higher power levels than bishops or hybrids. They also take less grinding to get their full skills out, so they don't really fall off until later in the game. Alchemists are also really good because the alchemy spell school owns bones and their ability to brew random potions when camping gives you tons of money during the early game, which is the only time money matters.
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Aug 23, 2019 00:37
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JustJeff88 posted:I had forgotten about that! It is indeed a great feature. Mind you, I don't know how much that training costs... The training is 30k, which is paltry in the grand scheme of MM4&5. And yea, Dru/Ran have unique spells in the mod.
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Aug 23, 2019 00:43
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Last few pages of this thread have made me wish I had a 13-month year so I could play through M&M 3-5 again.  God, what classics. BadAstronaut fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Aug 23, 2019 |
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Aug 23, 2019 01:42
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After 31 years, I finally beat Pool of Radiance.
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Aug 23, 2019 01:46
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I hear you BadAstronaut; I would even settle for an extra hour at the end of the day that was only for playing MS-DOS games Good job Givin, now you get to the best part: deciding whether to methodically import each character to Hillsfar to start them higher level (and as Harpers I think?) in Curse of the Azure Bonds, or to just go right to Curse! Also regarding Ultima VII, it cannot be stated enough just how gorgeous a technical achievement it was at the time, either. It was the game that infamously killed the Wasteland quasi-sequel Mean Time, as they were touching up their 2D EGA engine and then metaphorically looked out the window of their metaphorical stagecoach and saw a metaphorical fighter jet flying by and literally abandoned the project. Between the insane graphics and music and an INTERFACE THAT COULD EXCLUSIVELY USE THE MOUSE it really was like seeing the future.
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Aug 23, 2019 04:36
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FairGame posted:Just gotta best the giant cockroach in the starter dungeon, That thing was such a stumbling block for me back then until I realized I could paralyze it
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Aug 23, 2019 05:39
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All of the Wizardry 8 classes are good, actually, even the Lord which people seem to not like so much.
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Aug 23, 2019 07:27
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What are some games that really used charisma as a conversation attribute to the max? Fallout and Planescape seem obvious, even though Speech as a skill plus wisdom etc often did more than just pure charisma. Keen to look at some good comparables where one's ability to talk persuasively (charming, intimidating, etc) opened up great gameplay or dialogue options. Wasteland 2 maybe went a little too far by having all of these as individual skills instead of pure derived stats. Help.
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Aug 23, 2019 07:41
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Chairchucker posted:All of the Wizardry 8 classes are good, actually, even the Lord which people seem to not like so much. Lord isn't so much "bad" as "inferior to Valkyrie 99% of the time and that last 1% involves grinding to beat the RNG." To really shine you need to deck them out in randomly dropped powerful-but-life-draining gear (their special ability negates the drain). That said, they're still a healer with heavy armor and big weapons so they're automatically great.
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Aug 23, 2019 12:55
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Skwirl posted:Cool, any advice for starting characters. I'm phone posting but when I get home I'll probably start a game of either 3 or 4+5 depending which I own. As long as you have a party balanced between tanking/theivery/offensive casting/support casting you should be fine for the most part. that era of M&M is all about the satisfaction of exploration paying off in massive dividends and making you so powerful you steamroll everything.
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Aug 23, 2019 13:52
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Givin posted:After 31 years, I finally beat Pool of Radiance. Onward to Curse of the Azure Bonds!
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Aug 23, 2019 15:10
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I really really want to play Wizardry 8, but I have a case of broke-brain where I can't go into a game that is essentially a sequel without playing the prior games. I've a game started in Wiz6 that I'd intended to carry all the way through, but it's just so drat taxing to play that. And I can't just start Wiz7 without beating 6 first. Does anyone else have this ailment? Is there treatment? How will I tell my loved one?
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Aug 23, 2019 15:49
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chaosapiant posted:Is there treatment?
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Aug 23, 2019 16:03
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:kiss my belly button from the inside ?????????????
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Aug 23, 2019 16:05
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chaosapiant posted:I really really want to play Wizardry 8, but I have a case of broke-brain where I can't go into a game that is essentially a sequel without playing the prior games. I've a game started in Wiz6 that I'd intended to carry all the way through, but it's just so drat taxing to play that. And I can't just start Wiz7 without beating 6 first. I also have this ailment with the same games and I have no idea what the cure is. I'm currently spending about an hour a week working through Wiz 6 and expect to make it to Wiz 8 by the heat death of the universe.
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Aug 23, 2019 16:09
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Glagha posted:?????????????
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Aug 23, 2019 16:25
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chaosapiant posted:I really really want to play Wizardry 8, but I have a case of broke-brain where I can't go into a game that is essentially a sequel without playing the prior games. I've a game started in Wiz6 that I'd intended to carry all the way through, but it's just so drat taxing to play that. And I can't just start Wiz7 without beating 6 first. my typical treatment is to watch/read someone else play the ones I'm not going to. some of the screenshot LPs of old dungeon crawlers have like, "role-playing" role-playing where they give their characters voices and consequently reactions that make what would otherwise be a bit dull more colorful.
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Aug 23, 2019 16:30
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chaosapiant posted:I really really want to play Wizardry 8, but I have a case of broke-brain where I can't go into a game that is essentially a sequel without playing the prior games. I've a game started in Wiz6 that I'd intended to carry all the way through, but it's just so drat taxing to play that. And I can't just start Wiz7 without beating 6 first. Here is the treatment: Just play what you want to play. I'm sure Wiz8 stands on its own without the need to play the others. Like, do you really want to slog through 80+hours of games you don't like to play Wiz8? I had the same problem too. With the limited time I have for gaming nowadays, I just drop any game that doesn't click with me and move on. And I am more happy for it.
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Aug 23, 2019 16:34
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I have that problem like half the time. I played Wizardry 8 having only made sporadic efforts at playing VI over the years and never owning VII, but then I felt bad years later and started a full trilogy run. Amusingly I beat Wizardry VI in pretty decent time, and was feeling great with VII, but man, that game will kill you with content if you are not prepared. Still hope to finish that run someday, but my MS-DOS machine finally died this year so my saves might be lost anyway, as is tradition I do find reading CRPGAddict runthroughs of a game to be an acceptable alternative to playing earlier iterations of series I am really not sure I could get into fully though.
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Aug 23, 2019 17:09
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