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Ron Paul Atreides posted:I believe the reality of scarcity. I believe the pivot toward more authoritarian rule by Maduro and the military as the situation worsens. I am skeptical of the sudden escalation of violence by the military, the claims of merciless attacks on indigenous groups and extrajudicial killings, as one poster called it, going 'full Pinochet'. I am skeptical because after the failure of Guaido and his subsequent fleeing, and given the history of the Venezuelan military, I find that kind of change in their tactics and applications of force towards their own to be unlikely, but somehow exactly when international will for intervention fizzles out over the scarcity and starvation, reports emerge to paint an escalation. There were many claims of this kind of thing in Syria, in Iraq, in many places that all turned out to be false in the aftermath of invasion. Coming from reputable sources, sources that in other situations could be relied upon but in those situation were laundering fabrications from vested parties and presenting them as fact. It is just impossible to believe that an authoritarian would crack down on dissent after heading off large scale protests and a half assed military coup. Just impossible. An actual human who thinks he knows poo poo about anything.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 20:45 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 16:33 |
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YodaTFK posted:It is just impossible to believe that an authoritarian would crack down on dissent after heading off large scale protests and a half assed military coup. Just impossible. An actual human who thinks he knows poo poo about anything. Okay
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 21:16 |
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Didn’t we hear these exact same excuses from the right every time an atrocity committed by a US backed dictatorship got exposed? ”We can’t say for certain what happened, there Is no reliable info to be had. Refugee and victim testimony? Lies from commies! Amnesty international? Biased and infiltrated by left wing elements! UN reports? Influenced by our ideological enemies on the security council. Various churches and NGOs? Commies, the lot of them. Also, the propaganda outlet of the regime deny that it ever happened so there are clearly two sides to the story and we can’t act until we REALLY know what happened lol.” The only new thing this time around is that the dictator doing the killing is paying lip service to a left wing ideology and anti-US rhetorics and left leaning people who’s trying to discredit all the information we get.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 21:41 |
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Noshtane posted:Didn’t we hear these exact same excuses from the right every time an atrocity committed by a US backed dictatorship got exposed? That's actually not usually how it goes, no.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 21:43 |
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:That's actually not usually how it goes, no. I do believe there was more than one attempt to whitewash the Contras and discredit reports of atrocities in Nicaragua.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 21:49 |
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:That's actually not usually how it goes, no. As far as Amnesty is concerned it definitely is. These guys hate Amnesty International. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/631062/posts quote:It is interesting to note that Amnesty had previously failed to investigate the activities of the Stalinist Allende regime, one of the most brutal in Latin American history.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 22:09 |
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Noshtane posted:I do believe there was more than one attempt to whitewash the Contras and discredit reports of atrocities in Nicaragua. Okay. Usually it's not needed. They simply don't get reported on, and are generally ignored. But as my skepticism based on previous US actions is getting me called a free republic guy, I'm gonna tap out. Nothing here matters anyway. I hope I am wrong, but I think by the end of the year or the next, there will be air strikes and some manner of military action taken. Who knows where it will go from there, but whatever direction it takes, it will be bad and another quagmire the world really cannot afford right now. Ciao
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 22:19 |
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:my skepticism based on previous US actions is getting me called a free republic guy, I wasn't saying that's you, I'm just giving an example
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# ? Aug 19, 2019 01:00 |
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In Venezuela talks, Maduro allies said they would consider fresh elections: sourcesquote:Maduro and a delegation representing opposition leader Juan Guaido have been meeting in Barbados as part of talks to resolve a political stalemate in the struggling OPEC nation that is suffering from a hyperinflationary economic collapse. An interesting article describing some of the negotiations about elections that have gone on between the government and opposition.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:28 |
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Squalid posted:In Venezuela talks, Maduro allies said they would consider fresh elections: sources The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:38 |
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Lightning Knight posted:The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol. The sanctions they wanted lifted were the ones specifically targeting Maduro and individuals in the administration to prevent them from hiding money in offshore accounts. That seems like a reasonable condition to you? There were also socialist party challengers to Maduro. Why should he be guaranteed to be the socialist party candidate?
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 22:52 |
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Turning down an offer of elections because you'd rather levy sanctions doesn't sound reasonable, no.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 23:07 |
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fnox posted:So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can, or the utter loving drivel that you’re saying about car dealerships. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”, can you? You have at bare minimum been incredibly unclear on this. I have tried to follow your arguments over the course of this thread and I am genuinely quite surprised to learn that you are opposed to an invasion. Based on an exchange we had just a couple months ago you seemed to be clearly endorsing military action against the Maduro government. I literally presented the military option as the alternative and you said nothing to dispute it and actually seemed to implicitly endorse it by saying how important it was to maintain leverage over Maduro. fnox posted:
While you never directly stated in so many words "I want a US invasion" you did explicitly dismiss the idea of using unconditional aid on the grounds that it was only "palliative care" and added regarding Maduro that "You need to hold something over him to bring him to the negotiating table" which, in context, very clearly meant military force. Or if that's not what you meant then you were communicating poorly and shouldn't be upset at the rest of us for misunderstanding you. I'm also really unclear on how you went from what you wrote there to what you wrote here: fnox posted:
Your frustration is understandable and its hard to be objective when its your country and family being discussed but you need to take some ownership over the positions you've articulated here. Your actual beliefs can be very hard to pin down and quite frankly you seem to change your mind a lot without acknowledging it. At different times you've accused the Maduro government of being typical socialists but elsewhere you've said they're not real socialists at all. You've said that all the problems started with Maduro but then elsewhere you'll say they started with Chavez. You'll say that unconditional aid is a bad idea because it leaves Maduro holding the levers of power but then you'll turn around and say its a great idea. In some cases maybe there's a nuance to your position that is being lost, or maybe you really changed your mind in the intervening couple of months, but the rest of us ought to be forgiven for not always being able to keep track of what you believe because you certainly haven't made it easy.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 23:11 |
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VitalSigns posted:Turning down an offer of elections because you'd rather levy sanctions doesn't sound reasonable, no. That’s bullshit. He was asking for a year to resume embezzling money from the people of Venezuela.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 23:42 |
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Lightning Knight posted:The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol. this is about 60% my inclination although I hope venezuelablog et al examine the boring nerdy details the other 40% is the PSUV historically responding to negotiations with bullshit delays so they can keep being in charge, but they do have slightly more of a leg to stand on for the current stomping out in a huff gently caress John Bolton and the human host on whose upper lip he resides
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 23:47 |
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BigFactory posted:That’s bullshit. He was asking for a year to resume embezzling money from the people of Venezuela. Even if that's true, turning down elections because you want to impose sanctions instead isn't very reasonable.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 00:50 |
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1 year is an incredibly long delay for an election when you consider the state of the country.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 01:22 |
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VitalSigns posted:Even if that's true, turning down elections because you want to impose sanctions instead isn't very reasonable. Looting a country and hiding your spoils in offshore accounts isn’t very reasonable. This is the behavior you’re defending. Freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table. His response was “unfreeze my assets and in 1 year if I can run unopposed I’ll hold elections.” Not reasonable behavior. Sorry. There’s also a clear history and pattern of subverting democratic processes here. If you want to use the US track record as proof that they’re bad faith actors, Maduro has his own track record. BigFactory fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Aug 22, 2019 |
# ? Aug 22, 2019 01:31 |
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536 posted:1 year is an incredibly long delay for an election when you consider the state of the country. It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate BigFactory posted:Looting a country and hiding your spoils in offshore accounts isnt very reasonable. This is the behavior youre defending. Freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table. Did you think about this before you posted it? If freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table, and then you refuse to negotiate unfreezing his assets, then uh
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 01:42 |
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VitalSigns posted:It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate That’s how negotiations work when 50 nations get together to say that you’ve destabilized your country and potentially the region and need to go. The next step was the embargo. The step after that is military involvement. I didn’t make the rules. What you don’t get back is the wealth of the Venezuelan people. If/when he gets voted out or removed (or strung up from a lamppost), they will want it back. It’s not Maduro’s.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 01:54 |
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BigFactory posted:That’s how negotiations work when 50 nations get together to say that you’ve destabilized your country and potentially the region and need to go. The next step was the embargo. The step after that is military involvement. I didn’t make the rules. Right you prefer embargos and invasions to elections, so congratulations the US is achieving what you want, yay?
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:09 |
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BigFactory posted:I didn’t make the rules. lol there are no "rules"
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:12 |
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VitalSigns posted:Right you prefer embargos and invasions to elections, so congratulations the US is achieving what you want, yay? I think the guy who held the sham elections in the first place is the one you should be mad at.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:24 |
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BigFactory posted:The sanctions they wanted lifted were the ones specifically targeting Maduro and individuals in the administration to prevent them from hiding money in offshore accounts. That seems like a reasonable condition to you? There were also socialist party challengers to Maduro. Why should he be guaranteed to be the socialist party candidate? Can you actually give a citation on this?
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:28 |
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VitalSigns posted:It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate He will probably just manipulate the elections again anyways. Guy is so obviously a crook.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:34 |
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BigFactory posted:I think the guy who held the sham elections in the first place is the one you should be mad at. Okay. Welp being mad at him didn't conjure up new elections, maybe the US and the opposition should try negotiating? 536 posted:He will probably just manipulate the elections again anyways. Guy is so obviously a crook. If that is what you believe, then your demand for elections is a sham. You'll have to hope the Venezuelan people do something to remove him then, and I don't think the US negotiating in bad faith is exactly helping convince anyone
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:38 |
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Can you actually give a citation on this? You’re asking what the sanctions do?
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:43 |
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VitalSigns posted:
Maduro should probably watch the elections from The Hague, not participate in them. But as we all know, the world isn’t just and he’s going to probably hold on to power for as long as possible.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 02:45 |
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Honestly it feels like he's in that authoritarian position where he will absolutely refuse any even temporary loss of power because that's all between him and being thrown out to the dogs. So it's very doubtful that after having used his position of power to muck with the last election (and recreate half the country's government to remove dissent) that he wouldn't use his totally unimpeded power to muck with the next election. If all he's willing to offer is his word, that's not worth much.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 03:18 |
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If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections. If the goal is just propaganda, to lower his support make it look like we're being reasonable and democratic, then surely it would be much more effective if we actually were reasonable and then when he inevitably cheats again we can say "see we tried everything we could" and it would be true!
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 03:30 |
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VitalSigns posted:If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections. Do you believe Maduro has already manipulated elections in the past or do you think its never happened so far?
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 03:53 |
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536 posted:Do you believe Maduro has already manipulated elections in the past Yes
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 04:03 |
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VitalSigns posted:If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections. a crucial component is also demanding the overhaul of the CNE (national electoral council) and, by extension, the various local electoral whatnots if we have a new election where the current CNE disallows everyone who might reasonably beat Maduro and disbands the MUD again, then hey, guess what, it's not a free and fair election the whole point of the negotiation / the oppo's demands is an actual free and fair election
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 04:24 |
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GreyjoyBastard posted:the whole point of the negotiation / the oppo's demands is an actual free and fair election Yeah I believe that's what the opposition was trying to accomplish when the new round of US sanctions derailed the talks
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 05:21 |
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sactions going great https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)31397-2/fulltext quote:The impact of the US sanctions on the Venezuelan population cannot be overstated. More than 300 000 Venezuelans are at risk due to a lack of lifesaving medications and treatment. An estimated 80 000 HIV-positive patients have had no antiretroviral therapy since 2017.2 Access to medication such as insulin has been curtailed because US banks refuse to handle Venezuelan payments for this.3 Thousands to millions of people have been without access to dialysis, cancer treatment, or therapy for hypertension and diabetes.2 Particular to children has been the delay of vaccination campaigns or lack of access to antirejection medications after solid organ transplants in Argentina. Children with leukaemia awaiting bone marrow transplants abroad are now dying. Funds for such health-assistance programmes come from the PDVSA state oil company. Those funds are now frozen.4 Food imports dropped by 78% in 2018 compared to 2013.2 The very serious threat to health and harm to human life caused by these US sanctions are thought to have contributed to an excess of 40 000 deaths in 2017–18 alone.2
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 11:18 |
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BigFactory posted:You’re asking what the sanctions do? Yes. How specifically they are worded and which ones you mean. The US sanctions in the past have not been nearly as granular as you are saying they are.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 11:41 |
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BigFactory posted:You’re asking what the sanctions do? Here's what sanctions do! https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/sta...ingawful.com%2F
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 12:35 |
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Oh gently caress off, there’s been an AIDS epidemic in Delta Amacuro since the early 2000s, the government didn’t give a gently caress about it then and really doesn’t now because they’ve never cared at all for the indigenous population of Venezuela except when they need a photoshoot. You look at stats before 2017 and they’re on a steady decline since at least 2013. I know for a fact that it was incredibly hard to find insulin for my aunt and my father in 2015, because the government expropriated whatever company was responsible for supplying it, I think it was Bayer. You can very easily verify this yourself, there were hashtags like #sininsumosnosmorimos since before the sanctions. It is particularly insulting to bring up insulin because this is one of the things that the government tied up access to to the Homeland Card. Here’s a first hand testimony from a type 1 diabetes patient from Venezuela, describing difficulties acquiring insulin in 2013.
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 13:17 |
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Oh ok then no need to worry about the sanctions making things worse. I wish I was able to be so blasé about hundreds of thousands of people not getting medication
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 13:20 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 16:33 |
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Killing diabetics was only bad before 2017, now it's very very good
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# ? Aug 22, 2019 13:21 |