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Doloen
Dec 18, 2004

Ron Paul Atreides posted:

I believe the reality of scarcity. I believe the pivot toward more authoritarian rule by Maduro and the military as the situation worsens. I am skeptical of the sudden escalation of violence by the military, the claims of merciless attacks on indigenous groups and extrajudicial killings, as one poster called it, going 'full Pinochet'. I am skeptical because after the failure of Guaido and his subsequent fleeing, and given the history of the Venezuelan military, I find that kind of change in their tactics and applications of force towards their own to be unlikely, but somehow exactly when international will for intervention fizzles out over the scarcity and starvation, reports emerge to paint an escalation. There were many claims of this kind of thing in Syria, in Iraq, in many places that all turned out to be false in the aftermath of invasion. Coming from reputable sources, sources that in other situations could be relied upon but in those situation were laundering fabrications from vested parties and presenting them as fact.

This all feels like another run up to a new war. Something that, in thr current international climate, is insane, but the US is insane right now, and I wouldn't discount the possibility they mean it and are preparing for it right now.

It is just impossible to believe that an authoritarian would crack down on dissent after heading off large scale protests and a half assed military coup. Just impossible. An actual human who thinks he knows poo poo about anything.

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Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

YodaTFK posted:

It is just impossible to believe that an authoritarian would crack down on dissent after heading off large scale protests and a half assed military coup. Just impossible. An actual human who thinks he knows poo poo about anything.

Okay

Noshtane
Nov 22, 2007

The fish itself incites to deeds of hunger
Didn’t we hear these exact same excuses from the right every time an atrocity committed by a US backed dictatorship got exposed?
”We can’t say for certain what happened, there Is no reliable info to be had.
Refugee and victim testimony? Lies from commies! Amnesty international? Biased and infiltrated by left wing elements! UN reports? Influenced by our ideological enemies on the security council. Various churches and NGOs? Commies, the lot of them.
Also, the propaganda outlet of the regime deny that it ever happened so there are clearly two sides to the story and we can’t act until we REALLY know what happened lol.”

The only new thing this time around is that the dictator doing the killing is paying lip service to a left wing ideology and anti-US rhetorics and left leaning people who’s trying to discredit all the information we get.

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

Noshtane posted:

Didn’t we hear these exact same excuses from the right every time an atrocity committed by a US backed dictatorship got exposed?
”We can’t say for certain what happened, there Is no reliable info to be had.
Refugee and victim testimony? Lies from commies! Amnesty international? Biased and infiltrated by left wing elements! UN reports? Influenced by our ideological enemies on the security council. Various churches and NGOs? Commies, the lot of them.
Also, the propaganda outlet of the regime deny that it ever happened so there are clearly two sides to the story and we can’t act until we REALLY know what happened lol.”

The only new thing this time around is that the dictator doing the killing is paying lip service to a left wing ideology and anti-US rhetorics and left leaning people who’s trying to discredit all the information we get.

That's actually not usually how it goes, no.

Noshtane
Nov 22, 2007

The fish itself incites to deeds of hunger

Ron Paul Atreides posted:

That's actually not usually how it goes, no.

I do believe there was more than one attempt to whitewash the Contras and discredit reports of atrocities in Nicaragua.

Flavahbeast
Jul 21, 2001


Ron Paul Atreides posted:

That's actually not usually how it goes, no.

As far as Amnesty is concerned it definitely is. These guys hate Amnesty International.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/631062/posts

quote:

It is interesting to note that Amnesty had previously failed to investigate the activities of the Stalinist Allende regime, one of the most brutal in Latin American history.
Instead, Amnesty engaged in an unrelenting 20 year propaganda campaign against Pinochet, while he was struggling to restore democracy and prosperity to his grateful nation and while he defended his people against communist trained, armed, and supported militias as well as an influx of communist agitators from all over the world.

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

Noshtane posted:

I do believe there was more than one attempt to whitewash the Contras and discredit reports of atrocities in Nicaragua.

Okay. Usually it's not needed. They simply don't get reported on, and are generally ignored. But as my skepticism based on previous US actions is getting me called a free republic guy, I'm gonna tap out. Nothing here matters anyway. I hope I am wrong, but I think by the end of the year or the next, there will be air strikes and some manner of military action taken. Who knows where it will go from there, but whatever direction it takes, it will be bad and another quagmire the world really cannot afford right now.

Ciao

Flavahbeast
Jul 21, 2001


Ron Paul Atreides posted:

my skepticism based on previous US actions is getting me called a free republic guy,

I wasn't saying that's you, I'm just giving an example

Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

In Venezuela talks, Maduro allies said they would consider fresh elections: sources

quote:

Maduro and a delegation representing opposition leader Juan Guaido have been meeting in Barbados as part of talks to resolve a political stalemate in the struggling OPEC nation that is suffering from a hyperinflationary economic collapse.

Guaido’s delegation had proposed a presidential vote in six to nine months on a number of conditions including changes to the elections council and supreme court, said the sources, who asked not to be identified because the talks are confidential.

The government had in theory agreed to a presidential vote on the condition that the United States lift economic sanctions, Maduro be allowed to run as the Socialist Party candidate, and that the vote be held in a year, one of the sources said.

However, the government has since pulled out of the talks to protest a new round of sanctions by Washington, and no new date has been set to resume the discussions, despite a visit by Norway foreign ministry officials - acting as mediators - seeking to revive them.

An interesting article describing some of the negotiations about elections that have gone on between the government and opposition.

Lightning Knight
Feb 24, 2012

Pray for Answer

Squalid posted:

In Venezuela talks, Maduro allies said they would consider fresh elections: sources


An interesting article describing some of the negotiations about elections that have gone on between the government and opposition.

The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Lightning Knight posted:

The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol.

The sanctions they wanted lifted were the ones specifically targeting Maduro and individuals in the administration to prevent them from hiding money in offshore accounts. That seems like a reasonable condition to you? There were also socialist party challengers to Maduro. Why should he be guaranteed to be the socialist party candidate?

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Turning down an offer of elections because you'd rather levy sanctions doesn't sound reasonable, no.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN

fnox posted:

So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can, or the utter loving drivel that you’re saying about car dealerships. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”, can you?

You have at bare minimum been incredibly unclear on this. I have tried to follow your arguments over the course of this thread and I am genuinely quite surprised to learn that you are opposed to an invasion. Based on an exchange we had just a couple months ago you seemed to be clearly endorsing military action against the Maduro government. I literally presented the military option as the alternative and you said nothing to dispute it and actually seemed to implicitly endorse it by saying how important it was to maintain leverage over Maduro.

fnox posted:

Helsing posted:

I have no faith in a military invasion's ability to improve the situation in Venezuela but as I previously explained that's not specific to any one country, that's a more general problem with state building in general. There is no short term solution, at best there's various forms of harm reduction you might practice. An actual invasion that removes the government from power would lead to a civil war which would further destroy the economy and depress living standards even more. If it got bad enough it might lead to the de facto dissolution of the country. We're not talking the difference between one dictator and another, we're talking about the difference between a repressive state and a failed one.

The middle point is probably something extremely boring like unconditional aid and technical assistance which would inevitably help the government hold onto power but which would at least mitigate the suffering of the people. It wouldn't be morally satisfying to you in the way ousting Maduro would be but from the most strictly utilitarian terms it'd likely be the best outcome for the moment. Any resistance the government might initially put up toward such aid would be easier to overcome than the proposed alternative of a literal invasion: even if half or two thirds of every shipment goes directly to feathering the bed of some government functionary or local gang leader, that would still be a vastly better solution to the problem than a foreign power invading and occupying, and the US could easily afford to adsorb such losses. While this wouldn't solve every problem, and would actually create some new problems (hooking a country on foreign aid is not good for the local economy) it would be the fastest, most humane and most effective way to alleviate suffering, and then you could figure out the details of how to disengage later once the immediate crisis conditions have abated.

Of course this idea seems completely implausible to everyone because deep down we all recognize that any intervention that isn't predicated on using force to advance American state interests is a total none starter. The idea that America might creatively use its wealth to achieve a none military solution sounds insane because we all know American doesn't act out of humanitarian calculations. But perhaps as an exercise it is worth remembering that if someone actually cared about people's suffering and wanted to use the power of the American state to do something about it there would be way better ways to accomplish that goal than invading other countries.

This doesn't help remove Maduro though, it's palliative care. It helps him continue using hunger as a mean of social control, only he wouldn't have to dig a deeper hole to be able to give out free food. It would have to come with the condition that Maduro steps down or at the very least agrees to a transition plan. I'm not sure if the Red Cross aid is helping at all, I think it's mostly targetted towards refugees.

He needs to agree to a deal. It's hard enough to get him to sit down and actually buy into what he's saying because he's done this many times before as a way to buy time. You need to hold something over him to bring him to the negotiating table.

While you never directly stated in so many words "I want a US invasion" you did explicitly dismiss the idea of using unconditional aid on the grounds that it was only "palliative care" and added regarding Maduro that "You need to hold something over him to bring him to the negotiating table" which, in context, very clearly meant military force. Or if that's not what you meant then you were communicating poorly and shouldn't be upset at the rest of us for misunderstanding you.

I'm also really unclear on how you went from what you wrote there to what you wrote here:

fnox posted:


International pressure means exactly that, apply pressure on Maduro to get him to quit or agree to reforms that would end the crisis, if at least for the moment. This is not a term I am making up, it's a core tenet for modern democracies, and it comprises both actions from international organizations such as the OAS, UNASUR or the UN and from other democracies in the region. A ton of measures have already been done by these organizations for that purpose, but Maduro is now beyond the point where he has to actually care about his people.

So what is needed now is stronger action. More comprehensive action. If you remove the sanction preventing Maduro from accessing US financial markets, the only people benefiting from that will be Wall Street, like Goldman Sachs did in 2017 (They got paid in full by Maduro from the bonds they got, by the way, something something he's doesn't practice what he preaches). As to what exactly, it's hard to tell, it's hard to come up with something that will ease suffering yet hurt him. I like the idea of unconditional aid, enough to stave of the crisis for now, but nobody will do that for free, and he will never accept US aid. Maybe the correct avenue is to go to China, his benefactor, and engage with them in some form of arrangement.

I don't know what would be the best action though. This is what I'm hoping the discussion would become. Not a whirlpool of loving drivel with raging tankies calling me "gusano" in a crosspost from CSPAM while sitting very comfortably in their American homes. An actual discussion on viable alternatives to military action, things that will motivate a change in the country, be it from Maduro doing something that at the very least stabilizes the economy enough for people to catch a breath, or that forces a change in government.

Your frustration is understandable and its hard to be objective when its your country and family being discussed but you need to take some ownership over the positions you've articulated here. Your actual beliefs can be very hard to pin down and quite frankly you seem to change your mind a lot without acknowledging it. At different times you've accused the Maduro government of being typical socialists but elsewhere you've said they're not real socialists at all. You've said that all the problems started with Maduro but then elsewhere you'll say they started with Chavez. You'll say that unconditional aid is a bad idea because it leaves Maduro holding the levers of power but then you'll turn around and say its a great idea. In some cases maybe there's a nuance to your position that is being lost, or maybe you really changed your mind in the intervening couple of months, but the rest of us ought to be forgiven for not always being able to keep track of what you believe because you certainly haven't made it easy.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

VitalSigns posted:

Turning down an offer of elections because you'd rather levy sanctions doesn't sound reasonable, no.

That’s bullshit. He was asking for a year to resume embezzling money from the people of Venezuela.

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010

If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Lightning Knight posted:

The conditions set by each party seem reasonable, too bad we ruined it lol.

this is about 60% my inclination although I hope venezuelablog et al examine the boring nerdy details

the other 40% is the PSUV historically responding to negotiations with bullshit delays so they can keep being in charge, but they do have slightly more of a leg to stand on for the current stomping out in a huff

gently caress John Bolton and the human host on whose upper lip he resides

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

BigFactory posted:

That’s bullshit. He was asking for a year to resume embezzling money from the people of Venezuela.

Even if that's true, turning down elections because you want to impose sanctions instead isn't very reasonable.

536
Mar 18, 2019

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
1 year is an incredibly long delay for an election when you consider the state of the country.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

VitalSigns posted:

Even if that's true, turning down elections because you want to impose sanctions instead isn't very reasonable.

Looting a country and hiding your spoils in offshore accounts isn’t very reasonable. This is the behavior you’re defending. Freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table.

His response was “unfreeze my assets and in 1 year if I can run unopposed I’ll hold elections.” Not reasonable behavior. Sorry.

There’s also a clear history and pattern of subverting democratic processes here. If you want to use the US track record as proof that they’re bad faith actors, Maduro has his own track record.

BigFactory fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Aug 22, 2019

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

536 posted:

1 year is an incredibly long delay for an election when you consider the state of the country.

It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate


BigFactory posted:

Looting a country and hiding your spoils in offshore accounts isn’t very reasonable. This is the behavior you’re defending. Freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table.

His response was “unfreeze my assets and in 1 year if I can run unopposed I’ll hold elections.” Not reasonable behavior. Sorry.

Did you think about this before you posted it?

If freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table, and then you refuse to negotiate unfreezing his assets, then uh

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

VitalSigns posted:

It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate


Did you think about this before you posted it?

If freezing his assets brought him to the negotiating table, and then you refuse to negotiate unfreezing his assets, then uh

That’s how negotiations work when 50 nations get together to say that you’ve destabilized your country and potentially the region and need to go. The next step was the embargo. The step after that is military involvement. I didn’t make the rules.

What you don’t get back is the wealth of the Venezuelan people. If/when he gets voted out or removed (or strung up from a lamppost), they will want it back. It’s not Maduro’s.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

BigFactory posted:

That’s how negotiations work when 50 nations get together to say that you’ve destabilized your country and potentially the region and need to go. The next step was the embargo. The step after that is military involvement. I didn’t make the rules.

What you don’t get back is the wealth of the Venezuelan people. If/when he gets voted out or removed (or strung up from a lamppost), they will want it back. It’s not Maduro’s.

Right you prefer embargos and invasions to elections, so congratulations the US is achieving what you want, yay?

Doktor Avalanche
Dec 30, 2008

BigFactory posted:

I didn’t make the rules.

lol there are no "rules"

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

VitalSigns posted:

Right you prefer embargos and invasions to elections, so congratulations the US is achieving what you want, yay?

I think the guy who held the sham elections in the first place is the one you should be mad at.

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

BigFactory posted:

The sanctions they wanted lifted were the ones specifically targeting Maduro and individuals in the administration to prevent them from hiding money in offshore accounts. That seems like a reasonable condition to you? There were also socialist party challengers to Maduro. Why should he be guaranteed to be the socialist party candidate?

Can you actually give a citation on this?

536
Mar 18, 2019

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

VitalSigns posted:

It's shorter than waiting until his term is up, which is what happened when the US refused to negotiate



He will probably just manipulate the elections again anyways. Guy is so obviously a crook.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

BigFactory posted:

I think the guy who held the sham elections in the first place is the one you should be mad at.

Okay.

Welp being mad at him didn't conjure up new elections, maybe the US and the opposition should try negotiating?


536 posted:

He will probably just manipulate the elections again anyways. Guy is so obviously a crook.

If that is what you believe, then your demand for elections is a sham.

You'll have to hope the Venezuelan people do something to remove him then, and I don't think the US negotiating in bad faith is exactly helping convince anyone

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Ron Paul Atreides posted:

Can you actually give a citation on this?

You’re asking what the sanctions do?

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

VitalSigns posted:


If that is what you believe, then your demand for elections is a sham.


Maduro should probably watch the elections from The Hague, not participate in them. But as we all know, the world isn’t just and he’s going to probably hold on to power for as long as possible.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Honestly it feels like he's in that authoritarian position where he will absolutely refuse any even temporary loss of power because that's all between him and being thrown out to the dogs.

So it's very doubtful that after having used his position of power to muck with the last election (and recreate half the country's government to remove dissent) that he wouldn't use his totally unimpeded power to muck with the next election. If all he's willing to offer is his word, that's not worth much.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections.

If the goal is just propaganda, to lower his support make it look like we're being reasonable and democratic, then surely it would be much more effective if we actually were reasonable and then when he inevitably cheats again we can say "see we tried everything we could" and it would be true!

536
Mar 18, 2019

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

VitalSigns posted:

If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections.

If the goal is just propaganda, to lower his support make it look like we're being reasonable and democratic, then surely it would be much more effective if we actually were reasonable and then when he inevitably cheats again we can say "see we tried everything we could" and it would be true!

Do you believe Maduro has already manipulated elections in the past or do you think its never happened so far?

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

536 posted:

Do you believe Maduro has already manipulated elections in the past

Yes

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010

If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

VitalSigns posted:

If new elections are pointless because Maduro would just cheat anyway, then I don't see the point of this bizarre sham where we insist we want elections and then reject them. Like why negotiate at all, just invade or do whatever it is we really want to do instead of having elections.

a crucial component is also demanding the overhaul of the CNE (national electoral council) and, by extension, the various local electoral whatnots

if we have a new election where the current CNE disallows everyone who might reasonably beat Maduro and disbands the MUD again, then hey, guess what, it's not a free and fair election

the whole point of the negotiation / the oppo's demands is an actual free and fair election

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

GreyjoyBastard posted:

the whole point of the negotiation / the oppo's demands is an actual free and fair election

Yeah I believe that's what the opposition was trying to accomplish when the new round of US sanctions derailed the talks

Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer
sactions going great

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)31397-2/fulltext

quote:

The impact of the US sanctions on the Venezuelan population cannot be overstated. More than 300 000 Venezuelans are at risk due to a lack of lifesaving medications and treatment. An estimated 80 000 HIV-positive patients have had no antiretroviral therapy since 2017.2 Access to medication such as insulin has been curtailed because US banks refuse to handle Venezuelan payments for this.3 Thousands to millions of people have been without access to dialysis, cancer treatment, or therapy for hypertension and diabetes.2 Particular to children has been the delay of vaccination campaigns or lack of access to antirejection medications after solid organ transplants in Argentina. Children with leukaemia awaiting bone marrow transplants abroad are now dying. Funds for such health-assistance programmes come from the PDVSA state oil company. Those funds are now frozen.4 Food imports dropped by 78% in 2018 compared to 2013.2 The very serious threat to health and harm to human life caused by these US sanctions are thought to have contributed to an excess of 40 000 deaths in 2017–18 alone.2

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

BigFactory posted:

You’re asking what the sanctions do?

Yes. How specifically they are worded and which ones you mean. The US sanctions in the past have not been nearly as granular as you are saying they are.

brugroffil
Nov 30, 2015


BigFactory posted:

You’re asking what the sanctions do?

Here's what sanctions do!

https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/sta...ingawful.com%2F

fnox
May 19, 2013



Oh gently caress off, there’s been an AIDS epidemic in Delta Amacuro since the early 2000s, the government didn’t give a gently caress about it then and really doesn’t now because they’ve never cared at all for the indigenous population of Venezuela except when they need a photoshoot. You look at stats before 2017 and they’re on a steady decline since at least 2013. I know for a fact that it was incredibly hard to find insulin for my aunt and my father in 2015, because the government expropriated whatever company was responsible for supplying it, I think it was Bayer.

You can very easily verify this yourself, there were hashtags like #sininsumosnosmorimos since before the sanctions. It is particularly insulting to bring up insulin because this is one of the things that the government tied up access to to the Homeland Card.

Here’s a first hand testimony from a type 1 diabetes patient from Venezuela, describing difficulties acquiring insulin in 2013.

Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer
Oh ok then no need to worry about the sanctions making things worse. I wish I was able to be so blasé about hundreds of thousands of people not getting medication

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VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Killing diabetics was only bad before 2017, now it's very very good

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