ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Looks like TX has the right idea with their substitute permit slip. Thanks for the info.

Groovelord Neato posted:

for real though we should ban all the guns. heck i'll even compromise and only ban semiautomatic ones.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

But I like the guns.

Seriously though just unfucking the current implementation of NICS would be such a huge step in the right direction that it is endlessly frustrating that there is absolutely zero political will to do it.

Roumba posted:

Also, white-painted cardboard human silhouettes are often used for "no-shoot" penalty targets in place of the usual brown ones. I want to imagine that this convention began for visibility/scoring/cost reasons and the rascist undertone was unintentional, but...

TenementFunster posted:

that's just the color of cardboard. they're largely insane maga racists that laugh at this coincidence, though.

Jaxyon posted:

"coincidence"

TenementFunster posted:

cardboard covered in paper is more expensive than cardboard not covered in paper. of course you’re supposed to put the holes in the less expensive kind.

there is a lot about gun culture that is expressly racist. the relative cost of paper products isn’t one of them.

Jaxyon posted:

It's not that big a difference and only white people would have looked at it and said "nah that's fine".

You're assuming it can't be both.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Cardboard being brown probably isn't the biggest problem with gun culture.

Like, probably isn't even in the top 100.

That said my targets are blue because I'm training to defeat the Atlantean menace.

Jaxyon posted:

Absolutely it isn't, but the point being that I'm not giving gun culture the benefit of the doubt that they were "accidentally" racist-appearing.

Jaxyon posted:

It's not that big a difference and only white people would have looked at it and said "nah that's fine".

You're assuming it can't be both.

TenementFunster posted:

this is a zero upside move that solves no pressing issues and everyone would hate it. filling out a 4473 takes under 30 seconds, and i’ve only had one problem with NICS in 15 years over two dozen transfers in three different states. the Texas CHL being an end-run around a background check is a disaster. it’s how guys like Hank Yoo were able to get guns as a prohibited possessor. we need a more rigorous background check system, not an even-more-express lane with somehow even less oversight.

also, this idea is a non-starter with the gun crowd because ~rEgIsTrAtIon iS cOnfIscATIon~ and they would fight it every step of the way

Noshtane posted:

One thing US gun owners could do is to stop using human targets on shooting ranges. It’s one big difference between the US and European shooting ranges that I’ve seen.
From the first moment new gun owners get to hold their potential guns in the US, they’re being put in front of human shaped targets, be it silhouettes or a outright photograph of a human pointing a gun at them.
It kind of sets the tone on what the final purpose of the gun is, only to be reinforced by anti-gun folks calling their new guns “murder toys”, or something to that extent.

At every gun range I’ve been to here in Europe, bringing a human shaped targets would be regarded as extremely tasteless and you’d more likely than not be asked to leave. Of course the military and police use human targets but their gun usage is very much in the nasty business of life taking and hurting people.
Civilians who aren’t supposed to shoot at other humans shouldn’t be practicing as if they are about to do so.

It might be small and insignificant but it is something the reasonable gun owner can do without too much trouble.

Big K of Justice posted:

30 seconds? For a gun transaction?

TenementFunster posted:

it’s your name and address, then “yes” followed by a bunch of “no” then a signature. add in 60 seconds for a phone call or the even faster e-file, and you’re out the door with your new toy. it’s embarrassing.

SimonCat posted:

What if you are a member of the military practicing on your own time?

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Noshtane posted:

I’m not military so I can’t say for certain but on the shooting ranges I’ve been to, guys who are in the National Guard shoot at the paper moose like everyone else. Same for the off duty police who go to the range I use. Never been to a proper military range though, they tend to be closed off for civilians.
The conditioning to shoot moose is strong and it shows, Sweden harvest ten times more moose than Alaska or so I’ve heard at least.
Maybe I’m impressionable but when I see a moose in the wild, some part of my mind look for back stop, shooting angle and lead, maybe because I’ve been shooting a paper moose running back and forth on the range all my life.
If that is the case, isn’t it possible that someone who spend his life shooting paper humans start to have parts of his mind thinking of strangers as potential targets?

Parrotine posted:

Woah that body count is high for the last two year, good lord

flightless greeb posted:

I feel like that's kind of a video games cause gun violence stretch to my mind. That said, a huge part of gun culture in the US, including current interpretations of the second amendment, revolve around self defense, which definitely implies shooting other people.

I have a hard time imaging getting rid of silhouette targets in an atmosphere where it is openly acknowledged and agreed that one of the main purposes of owning a gun is to use it to kill someone else.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Yeah. poo poo's gone off the rails.

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

You probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun as you are mentally unwell if you associate vague shapes with the need to kill.

Parrotine posted:

I think if they sort of just blunt force it into law and gave it enough breathing room to produce the results, the public opinion on both sides would sway enough that any politician who tries to dismantle it would really start to look at it as a lost cause to repeal or face a dead career, similar to how killing the ACA seems to Republican senators now.

I know it's more complicated then that but a full four years or even just two would be huge towards curbing the tide here.

Noshtane posted:

I’m not military so I can’t say for certain but on the shooting ranges I’ve been to, guys who are in the National Guard shoot at the paper moose like everyone else. Same for the off duty police who go to the range I use. Never been to a proper military range though, they tend to be closed off for civilians.
The conditioning to shoot moose is strong and it shows, Sweden harvest ten times more moose than Alaska or so I’ve heard at least.
Maybe I’m impressionable but when I see a moose in the wild, some part of my mind look for back stop, shooting angle and lead, maybe because I’ve been shooting a paper moose running back and forth on the range all my life.
If that is the case, isn’t it possible that someone who spend his life shooting paper humans start to have parts of his mind thinking of strangers as potential targets?

Apollodorus posted:

Why not try a vacation in Sweden?

TenementFunster posted:

lol definitely not on both sides. no amount of statistical data will sway the opinion of the gun sovereign citizen types. hell, the AWB expired with barely a peep from congress.

and short of a massive confiscation of handguns and semi-automatic rifles, such a law would probably take years, if not decades to have an effect in curbing mass shootings. the number of semi-automatic rifles out there has increased by an order of magnitude since the AWB expired in 2004, having really taken off when the bottom fell out on prices in the last few years.

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Agreed, gun legislation isn't a useful avenue for decreasing mass-shooting or murders in general.

TenementFunster posted:

drat, it took you a week to type this?

anyway i'm sure it's just a weird coincidence that all five of the deadliest mass shootings in US history occurred in the 15 years the AWB expired. these decades of statistical data have to be a fluke or otherwise meaningless somehow, or else i might have to actually confront the societal consequences of my extremely dangerous hobby, which sounds very unpleasant.

TenementFunster posted:

anyway i'm sure it's just a weird coincidence that all five of the deadliest mass shootings in US history occurred in the 15 years the AWB expired.

twodot posted:

Yes this is extremely just a coincidence, especially considering one of those mass shootings used pistols.

suck my woke dick posted:

I mean, the AWB left a large number of weapons legal that don't have dumb tacticlol poo poo bolted to them but are just as deadly.

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Agreed, gun legislation isn't a useful avenue for decreasing mass-shooting or murders in general.

quote:

Studies have shown that state-level versions of[“red flag laws”] have been effective at preventing suicide. But can they actually address the separate issue of mass shootings? Surprisingly, experts think they could. And that’s because — just like a fragile, cracked bone could be a symptom of certain kinds of cancers — researchers are finding evidence that suicides and mass shootings can often be different expressions of the same problem.

“Many of these mass shootings are angry suicides,” says James Densley, professor of criminal justice at Minnesota’s Metropolitan State University.

Densley is part of a team that is working on a database of more than 150 mass shootings that took place between 1966 and 2018. His data won’t be public until January, but he said about half the attackers in his sample had demonstrated signs of feeling suicidal before they hurt others. A different set of researchers who analyzed 41 school shooters for the Secret Service and Department of Education found that 78 percent had a history of thinking about or attempting suicide.

quote:

There’s no single type of red flag law. The phrase is more of an umbrella term for a range of regulations implemented in at least 17 states. Typically, they allow people to report the dangerous behavior or mental state of someone they know. From there, those reports are evaluated and, if necessary, authorities can temporarily confiscate the troubled individual’s guns and prevent them from buying more. Once the crisis has passed, the person can get their guns back.

These rules were originally about suicide prevention, Densley told me, and were built as extensions of voluntary campaigns that encourage gun owners to give their guns to a friend if they are feeling suicidal. Experts in suicide prevention have long supported campaigns like this because of the strong links between gun accessibility and suicide. Most gun deaths in this country are suicides, and guns are the leading means of suicide. Experts say that when someone is suicidal, if they decide to act on that feeling, they are likely to turn to a familiar tool they’re already comfortable using — and when that tool is a gun, it’s particularly likely to be lethal.

And at least when it comes to suicide prevention, there’s evidence that red flag laws do work. In the decade after passing a red flag law, Indiana saw a 7.5 percent reduction in firearm suicides. In Connecticut, a red flag law was associated with a 13.7 percent reduction in firearm suicides between 2007 and 2015.

Squalid posted:

There was an interesting article published recently that argued there's good reason to believe some kinds of gun legislation is, and it seems pretty plausible. It also directly relates to the point Hieronymous Alloy was making recently, that suicide and mass shootings are probably a related phenomena.

Can We Prevent Mass Shootings by Preventing Suicide?



Because mass shootings are so rare, I doubt we will have good empirical evidence that red flag laws can prevent mass shootings. HOWEVER, if mass shootings are often essentially a subset of suicides, and these laws can prevent suicides, then it is reasonable to suppose they will also reduce mass shootings.

zapplez posted:

So basically, mental health is the core problem with mass shootings and we need to do more to improve mental health care access to all people.