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Dik Hz posted:Just a dumb question here, but how do you cash out your equity? Unless there's a public offering, couldn't the company just never cash you out? You don't. Finding a private buyer is difficult and if the company doesn't want you to sell they can leverage a lot of tools to prevent you from doing so. It pretty much leaves secondary sales supported by the company, that if they occur happen with a late stage fundraising round, and IPO as the only options to cash out.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:12
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Motronic posted:Whatever you think you know about this startup in specificity as to their runway and burn rate is largely a fabrication that was laid out in order to lowball a salary in lieu of Would the co-founders know the specifics? I have co-authored papers with 3 out of the 5 co-founders and have met the other two at conferences, and while I don't think they have specific say in how the company is run (i.e., who gets hired), I can check if any of them are on the board or been on any of the investor meetings, and if so, they might know whether or not the burn rate/current cash on hand is correct. I also got an official offer letter, in writing from them, and an email from the CTO that says, "I know you have a lot to think about and discuss with your family. Don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any questions no matter how large/small they may seem." I will try to push my other interviews forward by letting the recruiters know I have another offer I need to reply to, and hopefully, they will send me an offer letter I could use as leverage. If I don't have another offer letter by then, I feel like it would be hard to push for higher salary, though. The only other option I can think of, absence of another offer letter, is to call my former PhD labmates to ask for their salary and point out that they are earning more with only a PhD. Thoughts on that plan?
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Aug 24, 2019 07:09
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just_a_person posted:Would the co-founders know the specifics? I have co-authored papers with 3 out of the 5 co-founders and have met the other two at conferences, and while I don't think they have specific say in how the company is run (i.e., who gets hired), I can check if any of them are on the board or been on any of the investor meetings, and if so, they might know whether or not the burn rate/current cash on hand is correct. Cash is king. If you are a strategic hire you need 10x the equity they offered. If not you need market value in cash and 2% equity on top. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
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Aug 24, 2019 07:21
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Got the written version of the verbal offer I received yesterday and it's a 40% raise for ya boy  Everyone re-read the thread title.Pretty much everything on the offer letter is where I want it to be, but I'm interested in seeing if I can get a little freedom to work from home as I'll already be remote compared to everyone else I'd be working with (working out of a local office building but reporting/VPN-ing to an office elsewhere in the US). I have a couple of weekly obligations where I live that would be way easier to manage if I was able to work from home one day every other week, or even if I worked in the office in the morning and from home in the afternoon. Any advice on how I can approach that with my potential new boss?
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Aug 24, 2019 15:29
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C-Euro posted:Got the written version of the verbal offer I received yesterday and it's a 40% raise for ya boy Ask at your first one on one.
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Aug 25, 2019 12:04
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C-Euro posted:Got the written version of the verbal offer I received yesterday and it's a 40% raise for ya boy Mentioning things like weekly obligations at home won't go over well, though. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 14:51
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If you're already VPNing in, htf are they going to know where you're working from? Just work from home anyway.
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Aug 25, 2019 16:38
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So maybe wait until I get rolling and then frame it in the context of my role? I could buy that, I don't need to work from home right away.Ghostnuke posted:If you're already VPNing in, htf are they going to know where you're working from? Just work from home anyway. The people I'm working with are in CA but presumably I have some overlap with people in the office here. I'd rather figure out what that overlap or local accountability looks like before I try to push it.
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Aug 25, 2019 23:02
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Ghostnuke posted:If you're already VPNing in, htf are they going to know where you're working from? Just work from home anyway. how stupid are you
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Aug 25, 2019 23:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:how stupid are you jokes on you, I'm dumb as poo poo
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Aug 26, 2019 00:19
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Ghostnuke posted:jokes on you, I'm dumb as poo poo Management material, hoss. Get yourself a key to the executive washroom and a University of PHOENIX MBA.
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Aug 26, 2019 04:57
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Update on my offer, mostly just for my own benefit to vent. Background - internal offer for a Manager position as a true lateral (same pay grade, same salary). Hiring manager said the lateral is what she did the last 6 hires. I asked if expectations for me were the same as other managers on her staff (who are the next level up), and she said yes. So I replied that if expectations were the same I don't quite understand the misalignment in compensation and grade level. She said there are other perks to the position, like visibility. I asked if staying in the same grade but getting more money is an option, and she said she's never done that before but she will ask HR. She said she won't consider a promotion in the offer. I didn't peg her to be a stickler for precedent, so that was a lot more firm of a discussion than I thought. I was expecting I'd have to work around some HR policies or at least they were just lowballing, but this is literally just "more work for a promise"...Feel bad for the poor bastards who took on 20% more work for no more pay, haha. Oh well, we will see what HR says, but based on what I know the average salary range for my current grade looks like, I don't think it'll be high enough, and I'm not doing more work for a promise, so it seems like time to keep on fishing.
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Aug 26, 2019 17:15
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That is a bummer. I agree that I would pass unless you really know you want management experience (if you don't have any) and then bounce in a year. Surprising that a business with defined grades would not require everyone with those defined responsibilities to be in that grade.
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Aug 26, 2019 18:04
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i would accept knowing full well that i'm leveraging the new title to leave for a 30-40% increase nearly immediately
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Aug 26, 2019 18:53
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big trivia FAIL posted:i would accept knowing full well that i'm leveraging the new title to leave for a 30-40% increase nearly immediately 
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Aug 26, 2019 18:54
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big trivia FAIL posted:i would accept knowing full well that i'm leveraging the new title to leave for a 30-40% increase nearly immediately That's exactly what I'm doing here. And they're getting me licensed by the end of the year so if the end of year bonus and adjustment to base comp isn't massive (as it should be given the role changes) they just made me that much more valuable to someone else.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:16
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big trivia FAIL posted:i would accept knowing full well that i'm leveraging the new title to leave for a 30-40% increase nearly immediately yea what this guy said
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Aug 26, 2019 19:23
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Thanks to everyone here with the advice. I talked to another person about my offer, and they echo'd a lot of the sentiment in this thread. I'm going to grow a spine and push for a much higher salary. I am working on a counter letter and will set up a proposed time to talk over the phone to finalize details. I plan to have a list of demands outlined in the letter and will probably post it in this thread for advice after it's done. One question, though, should I put a target salary in this counter offer or does it fall under the "never say a number" rule?
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Aug 26, 2019 19:25
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You don't explicitly say it, but it sounds like the other six examples eventually got a promotion. I'd try to find out that timeframe if you plan to stay or just leverage the title change into a new job.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:26
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just_a_person posted:Thanks to everyone here with the advice. I talked to another person about my offer, and they echo'd a lot of the sentiment in this thread. I'm going to grow a spine and push for a much higher salary. I am working on a counter letter and will set up a proposed time to talk over the phone to finalize details. I plan to have a list of demands outlined in the letter and will probably post it in this thread for advice after it's done. One question, though, should I put a target salary in this counter offer or does it fall under the "never say a number" rule? Once they give you their starting number, you're free to dish out whatever numbers you like. Otherwise it's a weird leaving-them-hanging situation. I would be polite but firm in asserting your desired salary.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:37
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Heard back, story changes a bit as to who is to blame but the outcome is the same. HR policy doesn't allow two promotions in a year and can't add more money in a lateral...great policies for driving away talent... Externally on my resume I already say I am an engineering manager by title, because I have 10 people I manage tasking and deliverables for day to day. What I'm not involved in is the whole performance development, promotions/raises/hiring side of things. The value I was hoping for was threefold - aligning my pay to market, moving up the internal ladder, and learning the performance development (i.e direct reports) side of management. I have/had long term ambitions at the company that I wanted to see through that the third point would be more useful for, but I can't keep taking hometown discounts - so on to the next one! Thanks thread for the moral support! Edit: with respect to the other six examples, those were all in the last year at this higher level. The timeframe would be ~March when the review cycle formally ends and they do raises/promos. My concern is that that is long time to go without any extra money and that she wasn't clear on what I could do to really make that happen, it was kinda just "do the same that you normally do". That and you can't really negotiate promo compensation makes me think I'd be 18 months or so away from getting the right salary Crazyweasel fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 19:43
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Blaming HR policy is a cop-out. I'd wager that "policy' isn't even formally written down anywhere, because it's a stupid policy. A good enough manager should be able to work the system and get someone with enough clout on their side to override the policy. Otherwise, like you said, they are just setting themselves up to drive out good talent. If you take the position without a commensurate increase in compensation, polish up that resume with the new title and start shopping it around. That'll get the message across.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:50
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lol they’re just cheap and don’t care if people who want fairly paid walk, there is no great mystery to unravel here
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Aug 26, 2019 20:58
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Yeah and note it's not hr who's saying this, don't confuse the reason, it's your boss or one or two levels higher that's saying it.
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Aug 26, 2019 21:02
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I asked for clarification about the specific hours they wanted me to work and I can still make my evening commitments with the schedule they want me to work. Signed the offer letter and am sending it to their HR rep now
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Aug 27, 2019 01:41
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Congrats C-Euro!  It's been a long time coming, I'm super pumped for you.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:06
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Rex-Goliath posted:I guess I'll repost this here because I'm proud of myself for finally doing this right Update on this: annual review went well and landed me my second promotion in three years plus another 9% raise. That's the good news. Bad news is according to glassdoor I'm literally underneath the payband for my new title and my bonus is still set as if I'm at my previous title. The bonus rates are something that's documented in our career matrix and not at all vague so it actually kind of feels like a kick in the dick. I brought up the fact I'm very unhappy with my comp to my boss during the review and he both acknowledged that I'm underpaid while also saying it's going to take six months to make any progress on fixing it. He also told me not to do anything drastic without talking to him first. Competing company still stands and the fact they're willing to wait for me to wrap up this two month project overseas is a very good sign, in my opinion. So yeah. You guys were right.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:41
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My advice is to do something drastic without talking to your boss first
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Aug 27, 2019 02:43
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Yep. I'm taking a week of PTO when I'm back in the states to fly out to meet their executive team and wrap things up.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:44
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Eric the Mauve posted:My advice is to do something drastic without talking to your boss first yeah this I convinced a former colleague to start exploring his options. The first of which is at my firm, but more broadly the dude is underpaid and just deserves better. It sucks to see good people being taken advantage of because they fear change.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:59
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Rex-Goliath posted:I brought up the fact I'm very unhappy with my comp to my boss during the review and he both acknowledged that I'm underpaid while also saying it's going to take six months to make any progress on fixing it. Part of the reason I follow this thread is to see the amazing excuses management gives when it comes to reasons why they don't want to give you more money. They're almost always a convenient lie, and even if it's true, that's your boss's problem to deal with, not yours, since you should be looking for a new job immediately.
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Aug 27, 2019 03:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:Congrats C-Euro! Thank you! It's not a complete departure from what I'm doing right now but I'm optimistic that it's more of what I like and less of what I dislike. Either that, or they'll pay me enough to bear with it. I have the acceptance email drafted and was planning to send it in the morning. My wife thinks I should negotiate a little more but it's already more vacation days and a ton more money than I'm currently making. I know you should always negotiate, but I feel like I've already hit rule #6 in the OP on account of their salary offer being $10k/year more than my target for the position. Maybe I can ask for a small signing bonus? My currently employer pays weekly and this new role pays every other week, so I'm going to have a week where I miss a paycheck even though my wife's and mine finances can take a temporary hit like that so it's not I need that extra little payout. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 04:34
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This may be against the grain—and also you deserve a  for desperately wanting out of your current job but negotiating the offer you received instead of snap accepting—and other, smarter thread regulars might disagree, but you’ve negotiated a deal you’re happy with and imo just accept it now.
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Aug 27, 2019 04:57
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The thing is, I haven't actually negotiated anything on the actual offer letter- I'd be signing the same letter they first gave me on Friday, but it's a heck of an offer. I asked a bunch of follow up questions about their benefits package, pay schedule, and even got in touch with someone in that office who uses the same public transit route that I was planning to use, just to make sure it's a practical way to commute. So while I'm happy with the offer to begin with, I feel like I did enough due diligence to not come across as a complete pushover when I end up signing the first thing they put in front of me.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:06
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It is also possible that managers know the market and what they need to pay and don't want to deal with the BS. I usually make a fair offer (within company pay bands, we pay less than consulting) with a bit of room. I will not lose someone over $1000 but I don't really want to have a huge back and forth. I feel a bit bad for the last guy I hired since he went from $90k in New Orleans to $82k in Denver. But that is where I could pay based on his skills and certifications. He had similar experience to a guy that works for me making $83k. I kind of could not pay him more (my boss didn't want to stretch it or pay him more than my other guy) and I had him over a barrel since he wanted to work at the company and his wife took a job in Denver so he was moving here regardless.
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Aug 27, 2019 12:48
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spwrozek posted:It is also possible that managers know the market and what they need to pay and don't want to deal with the BS. I usually make a fair offer (within company pay bands, we pay less than consulting) with a bit of room. I will not lose someone over $1000 but I don't really want to have a huge back and forth. So I assume you’re aware that he took your job and (if he followed the thread’s advice) is actively looking for a better paying job?
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Aug 27, 2019 13:04
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If he goes he goes. Wasn't my top choice. Where he came from paid oddly high for not having his PE. He can make more consulting but he will work 50-60 hours a week instead of 40. Honestly if he just takes his PE exam and passes I can promote him.
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Aug 27, 2019 13:28
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Eric the Mauve posted:This may be against the grain—and also you deserve a I agree, the most important thing is to know when you’ve won. And hating your current job factors in tomyour BATNA
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Aug 27, 2019 13:40
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"Hate" is a strong word even though I've spent years hootin and hollerin about my job in the Corporate thread. It's more that in the last few months I've accepted that the things that I dislike about my current job will never change, because they are the way they are due to management's idea for the role and the way my boss chooses (or is forced to) divide his attention. It's just time for a change and I'm glad I was able to find a change that offered such a large pay bump up front.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:20
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I have a meeting today with my boss (a close friend) and my boss's boss (a very much not friend) in order for us to try to convince boss^2 to pay me more money in the wake of me losing one of my guys because he accidentally didn't pay him more money either. This outta be fun. I've already been interviewing, don't worry.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:34
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