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wiki the phrase "social wars"
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Aug 27, 2019 01:05
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Squalid posted:Sparta and all the other Greek city states seeking hegemony eventually ran into the same problem: they never developed a political system that could centralize governance over more than one polis. Instead after winning a war they simply relied on installing sympathetic, but fundamentally still independent clients to rule over defeated cities. Among other things, it was considerably more brutal whenever its clients started acting out; see also what happened to the Latin allies of Hannibal after the Second Punic War. Captain_Maclaine has issued a correction as of 01:08 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 01:06
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Probably because all the ones who decided not to be subservient would have their populations carted off in chains and the land handed out to a bunch of Romans, see the social wars
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Aug 27, 2019 01:07
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It's also why the Romans would hand out land to soldiers, now the subjugated population has a bunch of guys experienced in handling weapons hanging around and controlling a bunch of the farmland.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:10
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rome was simultaneously plowing over carthage as it was accepting control over the last greek states. their maniple tactics were specifically designed to defeat a citizen soldier phallanx and they could drop a legion on every threat.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:11
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then the marian reforms multiplied their manpower thousands of times over
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Aug 27, 2019 01:13
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There's an excellent book on the different military philosophies and tactics/strategies of the Greek and Romans that I use when I'm teaching War and Society seminars, Soldiers and Ghosts: A History of Battle in Classical Antiquity by J.E. Lendon, that I highly recommend to the thread for anyone who wants to get a very solid understanding of how those societies went to war and the relationships they had toward organized violence. A very short, incomplete version (which doesn't do this excellent book justice) would be: Greeks: "We fight to determine which Polis is the best, much as we compete in athletics and all other things." Romans: *foaming at the mouth with incoherent, bloodmaddened howls for death and conquest*
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Aug 27, 2019 01:18
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Agean90 posted:It's also why the Romans would hand out land to soldiers, now the subjugated population has a bunch of guys experienced in handling weapons hanging around and controlling a bunch of the farmland. Yeah plus the Romans would shack up with the local women and cuck the locals. Over time this strategy of land grants led to gradual romanization of areas like Gaul and pretty much wiped out most of the local celtic culture over time.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:42
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Also that Romans were more than willing to throw military purity away for things that work A celt, smelly and totally not beating me: 𝖁𝖆𝖊 𝖁𝖎𝖈𝖙𝖚𝖘 I, a latin, civilized beyond the ways of barbarians: 
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Aug 27, 2019 01:42
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etalian posted:Yeah plus the Romans would shack up with the local women and cuck the locals. As with so many other things though, this wasn't exactly original to Rome. Alexander similarly encouraged intermarriage and Hellenization across his empire as he went.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:48
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Squalid posted:Sparta and all the other Greek city states seeking hegemony eventually ran into the same problem: they never developed a political system that could centralize governance over more than one polis. Instead after winning a war they simply relied on installing sympathetic, but fundamentally still independent clients to rule over defeated cities. Like others mentioned, they could be particularly brutal to rebellious groups. However on top of that, it was also pretty good to be part of the Roman hegemony, at least for the landowners and the like. It sucked sending troops and not getting as much booty, but they were in turn far more secure in their safety than most other cities could boast at the time, got access to a huge trade network, and had the legions in town building really nice roads and other infrastructure. Hannibal's core strategy was to turn the Roman Allies against them, and while many did try their hand at shaking off the Roman yoke, a whole bunch never did, even when Rome was clearly against the ropes. Rome was very brutal and often very, very bad, but in an ancient world where that was far more often the norm than otherwise, the monty python sketch might be closer to the truth in a bunch of situations than it is fiction. It was probably pretty loving dope when you mostly could just stop worrying about invasions or raiders loving your life up, even if the Romans were a bunch of cheap assholes that refused to give you a say in govt.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:50
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Agean90 posted:Also that Romans were more than willing to throw military purity away for things that work Rebels by wearing pants!
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Aug 27, 2019 01:55
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etalian posted:Rebels by wearing pants! Gnaeus Scipio owned because he was both beat the preeminent military mind of his day and was also dedicated to pissing off the Roman equivalent of boomers by wearing his hair long and claiming to get military advice from the gods. the olds hated him but he was too competent to sideline
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Aug 27, 2019 02:00
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Agean90 posted:Probably because all the ones who decided not to be subservient would have their populations carted off in chains and the land handed out to a bunch of Romans, see the social wars The Greeks were eager to do this too, they were just bad at it. Agean90 posted:It's also why the Romans would hand out land to soldiers, now the subjugated population has a bunch of guys experienced in handling weapons hanging around and controlling a bunch of the farmland. Greeks also did this if they conquered cities and when founding colonies. However they always struggled to exert any kind of real control over colonies distant from the home polis. The Peloponnesian War started because Corcyra, a Corinthian colony, defected to the Athenian alliance which scared the rest of Greece into rallying against Athens before they became even more powerful. Even when Greek city states won big victories they were rarely able to capitalize on it. At the end of the Peloponnesian War Sparta installed the Thirty Tyrants to rule over Athens. They barely lasted a year though before being overthrown, and Athens immediately joined Thebes in a new anti-Spartan alliance. Sparta couldn't capitalize on their victory to actually build a lasting centralized political system. Rome by contrast, despite having an overtly similar political system to that of the Greek city states, was able to build a political system that effectively consolidated power. Roman colonies, unlike Corcyra, didn't claim the power to set their foreign policy separately.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:03
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Agean90 posted:Gnaeus Scipio owned because he was both beat the preeminent military mind of his day and was also dedicated to pissing off the Roman equivalent of boomers by wearing his hair long and claiming to get military advice from the gods. Caesar hung out with a bunch of weirdos who would go out drinking and stand on tables and wear pants and goatees, and his togas had fringe on them and he wore them "loosely belted"
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Aug 27, 2019 02:06
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Overall the reason Rome is so fun to learn about is there is just so much humanizing information about them because we just luckily have it. Certainly it was no different in other ancient cultures as well, but we just do not have the same depth of information for many of them. The vindolanda tablets alone are goddamn amazing in the window they give to what amounts to everyday life. http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/4DL...isplayEnglish=1 This one from a Roman mother to her son stationed all the way in Scotland is my favorite. It's a mom sending her faraway son socks and underwear so he does not get cold and you can tell he writes often because she knows the names of his messmates.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:15
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What's a good book about pre-Qin China?
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Aug 27, 2019 02:16
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Theban Wargay Mods, name change please!
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Aug 27, 2019 02:28
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Plutonis posted:What's a good book about pre-Qin China? The Cambridge History of Ancient China.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:36
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Carthage: uses boats Rome: is bad at boats Rome (internally): But what if we could turn sea battles into close‐quarters swordfights? One prototype later: 
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Aug 27, 2019 02:52
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man can y'all imagine Cicero with twitter the #content would be unreal
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Aug 27, 2019 04:21
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Agean90 posted:man can y'all imagine Cicero with twitter he’d report Clodius for cyberbullying him
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Aug 27, 2019 04:35
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spartacus wouldnt be given a checkmark
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Aug 27, 2019 04:41
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Overall the reason Rome is so fun to learn about is there is just so much humanizing information about them because we just luckily have it. Certainly it was no different in other ancient cultures as well, but we just do not have the same depth of information for many of them. The vindolanda tablets alone are goddamn amazing in the window they give to what amounts to everyday life. I loved the HBO Rome TV series even though like most works of fiction it has some historical inaccuracy for the sake of drama. Practical sets were amazing too bad they all got burned down in a fire.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:06
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got any sevens posted:spartacus wouldnt be given a checkmark this is violence!
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Aug 27, 2019 05:07
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spartacus did nothing wrong.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:08
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who would the roman version of tweeting toemp be
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Aug 27, 2019 05:09
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got any sevens posted:who would the roman version of tweeting toemp be The fat guy in HBO's Rome who makes those news announcement in the town square.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:10
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got any sevens posted:who would the roman version of tweeting toemp be Again, I return to the graffiti of Pompeii which was mostly dicks or comments about dicks.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:11
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the penises wiggle and dance in a conga line of lewd pavement carvings headed from points of congregation toward the main brothel in town. scientists today worry about the symbology we use to alert future people of danger and talk about how some cultures might read an arrow wrong. shoulda used a dick, idiots. WoodrowSkillson posted:Overall the reason Rome is so fun to learn about is there is just so much humanizing information about them because we just luckily have it. Certainly it was no different in other ancient cultures as well, but we just do not have the same depth of information for many of them. The vindolanda tablets alone are goddamn amazing in the window they give to what amounts to everyday life. the birthday invitation from that trove is great too Real hurthling! has issued a correction as of 05:19 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 05:15
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Platystemon posted:Carthage: uses boats The Corvus was dangerous to the ships it was installed on that the Romans had abandoned it before the war was even over. Turns out it's easier to just learn to boat.
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Aug 27, 2019 07:27
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:The Corvus was dangerous to the ships it was installed on that the Romans had abandoned it before the war was even over. Some people say it sent two fleets and a hundred thousand men to the bottom of the Mediterranean. Others say “that’s uninformed speculation from the twentieth century and models show that ships with corvi were not substantially less stable than unadorned ships. The Romans lost fleets because their ships were poorly built in other respects, they were piloted by inexperience commanders, and because the storms were uncommonly fierce”. Ancient sources (chief among them Polybius) don’t tell us the Romans stopped using the corvus, they just don’t mention it in later battles. They certainly don’t say “the Romans intentionally dropped the corvus because they recognised the stability problem”. Polybius does talk about the presence of marines in later battles and he give figures for the number of ships captured which suggest that either the Romans were still using the corvus, or they had developed alternative boarding strategies that were just as effective and obsoleted the thing.
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Aug 27, 2019 07:55
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Delthalaz posted:So why were there so few Spartans later on? I always heard it was because they were eugenic psychos who killed too many ‘inferior’ babies but idk over time a landlord elite emerged in sparta and monopolized power. since the spartan agoge was drawn from freeborn men the base of their recruits steadily dwindled, and by the early hellenistic period their numbers had dropped from around nine thousand to just seven hundredish. There was a reform, 'Lycurgan' faction with aims that are hard to reconstruct, and eventually one of the two Spartan kings got on board with them only to be immediately murdered. Years later his son, Cleomenes, took power and brutally purged the ephors and most of the large estate holders, whose lands he broke up and redistributed. The tension between land owning elites and common citizens of the polis was super taut during this time period, and Cleomenes' actions provoked a kind of reactionary response from most of the rest of Greece. Macedon and a group of cities known as the Achaian League put aside their differences just long enough to smash Sparta flat and force Cleomenes to flee into exile in Ptolemaic Egypt. At some point he tried to raise a revolt from within Alexandria against the Ptolemies, failed miserably, and presumably was executed. Fuligin has issued a correction as of 08:25 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 08:22
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Agean90 posted:man can y'all imagine Cicero with twitter if cicero had twitter he would have been dead a couple decades earlier
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Aug 27, 2019 08:34
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Caesar offhandedly remarks in his commentary on the war against the Veniti that their ships were so tall that even with towers on his ships his soldiers had to awkwardly throw their javelins upwards to hit the enemies. He doesn't say so explicitly but I got the definite impression that these towers weren't something he tried against an unusual foe, but were just a common part of Roman naval warfare. (A paragraph later he describes what his actual brilliant plan was, which was using scythe-like polearms to cut the rigging of the enemy ships). The image of a trireme with a tower on it for you to fill with archers, slingers, or javileneers always stuck with me
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Aug 27, 2019 08:44
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Platystemon posted:Carthage: uses boats Yeah how'd they feel about elephants
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Aug 27, 2019 12:51
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Thanks everyone for the answers about Polynesian navigation. It's fascinating stuff.
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Aug 27, 2019 13:05
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Can anyone recommend a good book on the Senate? Specifically in post-Augstan times. I've found the title "senator" popping up in some sources /very/ late (i.e. long after the establishment of the Kingdoms of Odacer and Theodoric). I'm interested in how signs/images/ideology of the Republic endured, what their function was and finally the liminal moment between the decaying Graeco-Roman civilization and the rise of the Papacy proper. I love the idea of degredated notables meeting and gossiping in the forum in this grassy, decaying ruin. Extra info on how iconography of the Empire transmuted and (Dux Bellorum into feudal Dukes, etc.) is also interesting but I only have slithers of information from here and there.
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Aug 27, 2019 13:07
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etalian posted:The fat guy in HBO's Rome who makes those news announcement in the town square. Brought to you by the miller's guild, true roman bread for true romans.
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Aug 27, 2019 13:29
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dpf posted:Can anyone recommend a good book on the Senate? Best place to ask would be the real ancient history thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486446
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Aug 27, 2019 13:34
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