Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Helsing posted:

The rule is there to curtail off topic discussion, but as I just tried to explain to you what is or isn't germane to a conversation about Venezuela is going to fluctuate based on what the posters in the thread are actually talking about. That is how conversations work - they are organic and fluid and their focus evolves over time, reflecting both changing events in the real world and also changes within the participants to the conversation. And that is exactly what's happened here.

At the time that Jones made that post back in January most of the thread's discussion was focused on rapidly developing current events: Maduro's new term was just beginning, there were protesters in the streets and Guaido was weeks away from announcing that he was in talks with senior figures in the military. The better part of a year later and there's a lot less daily news flooding into the thread, the immediate possibility of rapid developments has decreased, and the conversation has unsurprisingly started to focus more broadly on what could reasonably be the expected outcome of an American lead intervention designed to oust Maduro now that its clear the Venezuelan military is unlikely to do so on its own, at least for now. Broadly based discussions that previously were outside the scope of the thread have become relevant because in the intervening months almost everyone here has repeatedly brought up their feelings about American foreign policy. This is a natural and frankly inevitable development because there's no road to overthrowing Maduro that doesn't run through the US military establishment. So the reason this became relevant is because the thread regulars made it relevant by talking about it constantly.

I'll reiterate: this is how conversations between normal human beings work. They are messy, they slip over a wide range of related and semi-topics, sometimes they circle back to previously discussed issues and attack them from a new angle, at other times they can be frustratingly repetitive, not infrequently the discussion becomes an argument about what is or is not relevant to the discussion. But it's how people communicate and its not inherently a bad thing! In fact it can help produce a healthy balance between breathless speculative talk about current events and bigger picture discussions of how the international system and interstate diplomacy actually works.

A proper discussion is framed by some broad guidelines but ought to have plenty of room to expand or retract in focus depending on where the individual participants are at. The proper role of moderation, I would argue, is to guide this process, occasionally prodding people back onto topic when the conversation is stuck but otherwise making some reasonable allowances for people to explore the topic in the way that makes sense to them as individuals.

Discendo Vox posted:

The rule is there literally to get you to stop doing this. And you know that.

# ? Aug 24, 2019 22:39

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# ? May 21, 2024 19:49

M. Discordia: Apr 30, 2003; by Smythe

Helsing posted:

I'll reiterate: this is how conversations between normal human beings work.

Do you have any info on how conversations between normal human beings and people cheerleading Maduro's death squads work?

# ? Aug 25, 2019 00:30

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

M. Discordia posted:

Do you have any info on how conversations between normal human beings and people cheerleading Maduro's death squads work?

M. Discordia posted:

Now that the PSUV is in open sedition against the first legitimately elected government of Venezuela in 17 years, it's time to just round them up and kill them in an orderly fashion instead of doing so at the end of a protracted and destructive civil war.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 25, 2019 01:22

M. Discordia: Apr 30, 2003; by Smythe

So, you do not have any such information?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 25, 2019 01:42

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

It's a neat trick to be able to cheerlead foreign intervention and sanctions and then ban any discussion of the historical and ongoing real world consequences of those actions.

# ? Aug 25, 2019 02:27

fnox: May 19, 2013

brugroffil posted:

It's a neat trick to be able to cheerlead foreign intervention and sanctions and then ban any discussion of the historical and ongoing real world consequences of those actions.

You mean the fake cargo shipment that you guys blindly parroted without double checking? Did that happen in your real world?

If this were any sort of real discussion we�d be seeing retractions from the sheer amount of bullshit you peddle. Instead it seems like the posters most willing to unquestionably obey Maduro�s party line linger in the C-SPAM thread where they can type epic snipes on posters here and have the tankie circlejerk pat them on the back.

fnox fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Aug 25, 2019

# ? Aug 25, 2019 06:19

AGGGGH BEES: Apr 28, 2018; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

brugroffil posted:

It's a neat trick to be able to cheerlead foreign intervention and sanctions and then ban any discussion of the historical and ongoing real world consequences of those actions.

Lol I don't believe for a second that you actually care about this.

# ? Aug 25, 2019 06:55

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

AGGGGH BEES posted:

Lol I don't believe for a second that you actually care about this.

dont tell on yourself so easily

# ? Aug 25, 2019 08:03

Zidrooner: Jul 20, 2006; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

fnox posted:

You mean the fake cargo shipment that you guys blindly parroted without double checking? Did that happen in your real world?

If this were any sort of real discussion we�d be seeing retractions from the sheer amount of bullshit you peddle. Instead it seems like the posters most willing to unquestionably obey Maduro�s party line linger in the C-SPAM thread where they can type epic snipes on posters here and have the tankie circlejerk pat them on the back.

I'll go ahead and retract my statement on the cargo ship, that whatsapp screenshot is ridiculous.

# ? Aug 25, 2019 08:49

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

fnox posted:

You mean the fake cargo shipment that you guys blindly parroted without double checking? Did that happen in your real world?

If this were any sort of real discussion we’d be seeing retractions from the sheer amount of bullshit you peddle. Instead it seems like the posters most willing to unquestionably obey Maduro’s party line linger in the C-SPAM thread where they can type epic snipes on posters here and have the tankie circlejerk pat them on the back.

I don't think I ever talked about cargo shipment, but are you now rejecting the idea that sanctions have material impacts on the people?

We've seen plenty of bullshit all around, which goes back to several posters' point about the unreliable and incomplete information we're forced to deal with.

# ? Aug 25, 2019 10:01

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

AGGGGH BEES posted:

Lol I don't believe for a second that you actually care about this.

Sanctions and military intervention are a pretty counterproductive form of care

# ? Aug 25, 2019 10:02

fnox: May 19, 2013

brugroffil posted:

I don't think I ever talked about cargo shipment, but are you now rejecting the idea that sanctions have material impacts on the people?

We've seen plenty of bullshit all around, which goes back to several posters' point about the unreliable and incomplete information we're forced to deal with.

I reject the notion that the sanctions are causing starvation and shortages, yes. The key word here is causing. What causes it is the same thing that has been causing them before, they�ve gotten worse because the government has gotten worse and worse at managing everything, while taking more and more control. I concede the sanctions make it harder for Maduro to renegotiate and restructure debt, which means he�s got less room to maneuver.

The thing is, in the 4 years prior to the sanctions he failed to do anything that remotely improved the economic conditions of the country, so to think that if the sanctions are removed he�ll be able to change course and also stave off China, Russia and the US is a pipe dream. He needs to agree to a transitional government before they are removed, and he and his whole cadre of scumbag boliborgeoisie need to go too.

Zidrooner posted:

I'll go ahead and retract my statement on the cargo ship, that whatsapp screenshot is ridiculous.

That screenshot was the Vice President speaking officially. What else do you think she�s lied about? If the US was blocking food or medicine from entering the country wouldn�t she be able to find a far better example of that occurring?

fnox fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Aug 25, 2019

# ? Aug 25, 2019 12:43

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

M. Discordia posted:

So, you do not have any such information?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

You see? All things come to those who wait.

# ? Aug 25, 2019 23:42

Fallen Hamprince: Nov 12, 2016

The only moral death squad is my death squad.

We kill people who pronounce GIF as "Jiff".

# ? Aug 26, 2019 01:34

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

fnox posted:

I reject the notion that the sanctions are causing starvation and shortages, yes.

Just because you reject reality doesnt stop those people from dying while you cheer-lead their killers.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-us-sanctions-united-nations-oil-pdvsa-a8748201.html

quote:

Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in �economic warfare� against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.

quote:

�Sanctions kill,� he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a �sister democracy�.

quote:

The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.

�Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbIX1CP9qr4

# ? Aug 26, 2019 01:37

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

We've refuted that guy and articles citing him at least three times now. A quick search says start here.

Without getting into the weeds, individual countries are basically able to create and fund rapporteur offices. A general rule with rapporteurs (or a lot of other specialized roles associated with the UN) is that they're put in place on someone's behalf to promote their goals. I'd encourage folks to look at de Zayas' history of statements before assuming that his title gives him the authority or credibility he claims.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 26, 2019

# ? Aug 26, 2019 02:50

536: Mar 18, 2019; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

420 Gank Mid posted:

Just because you reject reality doesnt stop those people from dying while you cheer-lead their killers.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-us-sanctions-united-nations-oil-pdvsa-a8748201.html

The writer is quite questionable. So 20+ experts from 10+ NGOs have all done reports on the state of Venezuela over the past few years. ALL of them determined there was a humanitarian crisis in country, highlighted by food shortages and rapid inflation. Then he released his findings, he was the only person who said in 2018 there was no crisis. He was the google restaurant review poster of NGO's evaluating Venezuela. Can you really trust his findings when he said in 2018 everything was fine?

He said "Castro should go down in history as one of the greatest leaders like Ghandi or Mandela". That tells you his bias.

536 fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Aug 26, 2019

# ? Aug 26, 2019 03:07

fnox: May 19, 2013

420 Gank Mid posted:

Just because you reject reality

That�s very rich coming from someone who actually believes the opposition are Southern KKK types in a country that is 70% mixed race, based on nothing but utter bullshit the government invented. Oh, still not a peep about the indigenous populations the military has terrorized and targeted for years.

# ? Aug 26, 2019 06:53

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

i welcome your hatred

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# ? Aug 26, 2019 07:42

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

536 posted:

He said "Castro should go down in history as one of the greatest leaders like Ghandi or Mandela". That tells you his bias.

Stop making this too easy

# ? Aug 26, 2019 08:41

GoluboiOgon: Aug 19, 2017; by Nyc_Tattoo

clearly civil rights hero nelson mandela would despise being put in the same league as fidel castro. look at how angrily he is embracing castro in this picture!

you can see that same loathing for castro and everything he stood for in mandela's speeches:

quote:

Shortly following his release after 27 years as a political prisoner in 1990, Mandela visited Cuba to express his gratitude, calling Castro�s Revolution �a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people.�

�We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious, imperialist-orchestrated campaign,� Mandela said during the visit, according to the Los Angeles Times. �We, too, want to control our own destiny.�

During a public event in Havana, Mandela asked Castro to visit South Africa.

�Who trained our people, who gave us resources, who helped so many of our soldiers, our doctors?� Mandela said. �You have not come to our country � when are you coming?�

# ? Aug 26, 2019 20:06

wielder: Feb 16, 2008; "You had best not do that, Avatar!"

I don't know, I think having just one person and his immediate family rule over a country for decades unitl they literally die of old age was not a good idea when Batista and company were in power, but maybe I simply missed the memo about why that is a good thing now.

# ? Aug 26, 2019 22:58

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

536 posted:

He said "Castro should go down in history as one of the greatest leaders like Ghandi or Mandela". That tells you his bias.

Wow yeah why would he include Ghandi along with Castro and Mandela

# ? Aug 27, 2019 22:07

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Discendo Vox posted:

We've refuted that guy and articles citing him at least three times now. A quick search says start here.

Without getting into the weeds, individual countries are basically able to create and fund rapporteur offices. A general rule with rapporteurs (or a lot of other specialized roles associated with the UN) is that they're put in place on someone's behalf to promote their goals. I'd encourage folks to look at de Zayas' history of statements before assuming that his title gives him the authority or credibility he claims.

How is that different from literally any other source of official information on this conflict? Also, isn't the "look at their track record to evaluate their current statements" schtik exactly what you've demanded people not do regarding Bolton, Abrams, etc.?

# ? Aug 27, 2019 22:54

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Helsing posted:

How is that different from literally any other source of official information on this conflict? Also, isn't the "look at their track record to evaluate their current statements" schtik exactly what you've demanded people not do regarding Bolton, Abrams, etc.?

There seems to be propaganda on both sides of the conflict, but this thread is fortunate enough to have a few primary sources of information which, while not immune to error and bias, at least offer the readers of this thread another source to balance against obvious propaganda from American interests and the PSUV. I�m grateful for it. Aren�t you?

# ? Aug 28, 2019 00:46

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Cuba's also replete with examples of American foreign policy in action for people interested in talking about America's actions toward Venezuela.

A full-on embargo that didn't really manage to get anything done.
An embargo that lasted for almost 60 years, long after the politics that the embargo started under had mostly passed, so if the Venezuelan government doesn't want inertia to take over, or have the sanctions become part of US conservative nostalgia, it'd probably be in their interests to try bargaining sooner rather than wait for America to give up
An embargo that did lessen and strengthen from the whims of different presidents as the reigns were passed along, even if it was never formally stopped, so there's a lot to consider about motivations of individual politicians rather than grand strategy from inscrutable-yet-sinister bureaucracy or agencies
An attempted invasion without congressional approval back at the height of CIA meddling failing miserably. If the current administration wants to start a full-on land war, they'll need to go to congress to get enough justification for it, and in the current political environment, it seems unlikely for congress to go along with things

Although I do think that sticking to US-centric interpretations of foreign crises tends to deny the agency of the foreigners in crisis. Most of Venezuela's problems come from Venezuela, and hopefully it will be the actions of Venezuelans to end the crisis.

# ? Aug 28, 2019 01:44

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Helsing posted:

How is that different from literally any other source of official information on this conflict? Also, isn't the "look at their track record to evaluate their current statements" schtik exactly what you've demanded people not do regarding Bolton, Abrams, etc.?

de Zayas is germane to discussion because, as has been the case previously in this thread, he was cited as a source of authority on Venezuela. If you read the sentence immediately before the part you bolded, you will see I am specifically describing the rapporteur format within the UN, which is the source of his authority. And if you read the sentence immediately after the bolded section, you can see I'm referring specifically to de Zayas' track record. (you might also notice this falls under "post about UN poo poo regarding venezuela". Which people did, in this thread. de Zayas has a specific record regarding his statements and reports on Venezuela, and a history which reflects on his credibility as a source on Venezuela. That is what people are discussing.

I have not "demanded" that people not examine the statements and histories of Bolton and Abrams to demonstrate their credibility. No one is citing these people as authorities. It doesn't come up. What I have done is cite the rule posted by a mod to get the discussion on topic, because posters use the thread to discuss the United States, to reduce it to a litigation of the United States; to confound and avoid discussion of Venezuela.

Which you know, because it's what you are attempting to do.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Aug 28, 2019

# ? Aug 28, 2019 01:53

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

fnox posted:

That�s very rich coming from someone who actually believes the opposition are Southern KKK types in a country that is 70% mixed race, based on nothing but utter bullshit the government invented. Oh, still not a peep about the indigenous populations the military has terrorized and targeted for years.

You do know there are other kinds of racists than klansmen right?

Like the kind of racists who insist that they themselves are colorblind and have no racial biases and neither does the society they live in.

Then again, they do go around lynching black people to send a message to any uppity minorities that you will face consequences for organizing or even just being perceived to be organizing for their own interests so maybe they're more like Klansmen than I had thought.

# ? Aug 28, 2019 03:47

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Also take me to this magical world where people who are "mixed" cant be racist.

I want to live there.

# ? Aug 28, 2019 03:50

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Helsing posted:

How is that different from literally any other source of official information on this conflict? Also, isn't the "look at their track record to evaluate their current statements" schtik exactly what you've demanded people not do regarding Bolton, Abrams, etc.?

here is a comprehensive list of people who have demanded that we not evaluate the history of Bolton and Abrams:

# ? Aug 28, 2019 04:23

fnox: May 19, 2013

420 Gank Mid posted:

You do know there are other kinds of racists than klansmen right?

Like the kind of racists who insist that they themselves are colorblind and have no racial biases and neither does the society they live in.

Then again, they do go around lynching black people to send a message to any uppity minorities that you will face consequences for organizing or even just being perceived to be organizing for their own interests so maybe they're more like Klansmen than I had thought.

Where you live in. I'm perfectly aware of the racial biases and history of racial inequality that America has. But it is apparently beyond your cognitive capabilities to consider that Venezuelan society might blur the lines between races a lot more than America does, or that we just simply never had racial supremacist groups in power, and thus we don't experience the same societal problems America has.

Let's dispel another piece of government propaganda, shall we? So you still believe that the Orlando Figuera's murder was racially motivated, despite the fact that there hasn't been a single other alleged racist lynching in the country, despite how the mob wasn't comprised of a single race, despite how obvious it is that the opposition is as ethnically mixed as the ruling party, and despite how many of the people killed by the government during those protests were not white?

This is Fabian Urbina. He was 17 years old when he was shot dead in Altamira by a GNB, on June 19th, 2017. His killer, while identified as Sgt. Johan Rojas, is still at large, as the criminal justice system refuses to try him.

This is Neomar Lander. He was 17 years old when he was hit point blank by a gas grenade shot by the PNB, crushing his thorax, killing him within minutes. The government ran a story in VTV about a supposed interview with his father, where his "father" claimed that he was paid to assist the protests and that he died when attempting to use a makeshift mortar. His mother spoke publicly the day after, she said she didn't know the man that was interviewed in VTV. His killer is still at large.

This is Paul Moreno Camacho. He was 25 years old when he was fatally ran over at the adjacencies of a protest on the 18th of May, 2017. He was a 5th year student of medicine and was part of the "Green Cross" volunteers who provided medical assistance to protestors. His murderer, Omar Barrios, was wealthy, so he paid the judge changed his sentence, changing Paul Moreno's TOD to 2009, so that he would be sentenced under more lenient jurisdiction. Omar Barrios got 19 months of house arrest for the murder.

This is Armando Ca�izales. He was an 18 year old violinist, member of the Sistema Nacional de Orquesta Sinfonica. He was struck by a metal slug on his neck, fired by the GNB, as he participated in a protest on May 3rd, 2017. His killer is still at large.

These are the people you are saying were in the service of white supremacists and racists. These are the people you tarnish with your bullshit. These are the dead you don't give two shits about.

fnox fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Aug 28, 2019

# ? Aug 28, 2019 08:25

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

fnox im going to be honest i mentally translate everything you post into an explosive bout of diarrhea

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:02

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

you're all loving ghouls and you should be ashamed to breathe

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:04

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

lock this thread and permaban everybody whos ever posted in it, including me

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:07

Noshtane: Nov 22, 2007; The fish itself incites to deeds of hunger

Tollymain posted:

lock this thread and permaban everybody whos ever posted in it, including me

I'd be satisfied if we just permabanned you.
And Fnox is right.

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:10

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

you're a net negative on the world around you

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:11

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

and no, fnox is not right. fnox spews lies and bullshit because fnox stands to gain from the destruction of others

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:12

Noshtane: Nov 22, 2007; The fish itself incites to deeds of hunger

It is always fun to hear a rich, white, well fed and generally well off westerner come down on a refugee and call him a liar because his life experience does not align with a certain ideology.
This might be hard for you to grasp, but the world does not always look the same on the ground as it does through the filter of tankie twitter feeds.

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:18

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

thats the ugly truth at the core of this all. those who call for (even if claiming otherwise) for us intervention are inherently seeking the destruction of millions of lives. some people are high enough in the capitalist apparatus to personally gain from capital's victory, some are not, but that is what you seek. it doesnt loving matter if youre saintly to those in your personal life, you are seeking the destruction of millions

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:19

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# ? May 21, 2024 19:49

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

also i only qualify for white, sorry dipshit

# ? Aug 28, 2019 10:19

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