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AreWeDrunkYet posted:And are you assuming that just because generation is nationalized the power generated has to be given away? I'm assuming that the government pays the difference between current rates and Navy reactor rates, so Americans can maintain their current standards of living. I calculated in some other thread on this subforum that based on a levelized cost of electricity rate advertised by a concentrated solar thermal plant in 2005 or something like that that if the US were powered entirely on that kind of electricity and subsidized the difference between that rate advertised and current electricity rates, the US would have to spend something like half of its budget on electricity bills. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 01:28
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silence_kit posted:so Americans can maintain their current standards of living. Ah yeah see there's your error, the first world doesn't get to keep living at an absurdly, suicidally wasteful level of energy consumption. Phoenix is gonna get abandoned, either in a controlled manner to stop air conditioning a 120 degree desert, or involuntarily when everyone there dies of heatstroke because the power grid overloaded.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:33
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silence_kit posted:I'm assuming that the government pays the difference between current rates and Navy reactor rates, so Americans can maintain their current standards of living. Holy selective quoting, Batman.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:33
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Crazycryodude posted:Ah yeah see there's your error, the first world doesn't get to keep living at an absurdly, suicidally wasteful level of energy consumption. Phoenix is gonna get abandoned, either in a controlled manner to stop air conditioning a 120 degree desert, or involuntarily when everyone there dies of heatstroke because the power grid overloaded. This might shock you, but most "first world" people don't live in Phoenix nor is it particularly representative.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:35
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What credible plan to deal with climate change doesn't involve significantly reducing consumption?
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Aug 28, 2019 01:36
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fishmech posted:This might shock you, but most "first world" people don't live in Phoenix nor is it particularly representative. The dumbest part of that is it takes way more energy to heat the cold parts of the world people live in than to cool the hot parts. It’s more energy-intensive to inhabit Minnesota than Phoenix.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:44
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Crazycryodude posted:What credible plan to deal with climate change doesn't involve significantly reducing consumption? Most of the credible ones involve significantly more energy consumption to operate things that can provide carbon sinks and to replace the relatively energy efficient but greenhouse emissions inefficient internal combustion engines and poo poo like that. And you know, increasing materials consumption for a pretty long while to build all the replacement facilities to actually get rid of the fossil fuels.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:44
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Phanatic posted:The dumbest part of that is it takes way more energy to heat the cold parts of the world people live in than to cool the hot parts. It’s more energy-intensive to inhabit Minnesota than Phoenix. White people inhabit places like this. shivers People of color inhabit places like this. mimes fanning self
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Aug 28, 2019 01:47
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Yeah sorry I should've specified personal consumer consumption. Spending energy and materials on capital to decarbonize the world is cool and good, but having everyone eat 3,000 calories of beef every day in a single-family home with a yard on top of their mountain of disposable plastic crap isn't feasible.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 01:48
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Crazycryodude posted:Yeah sorry I should've specified personal consumer consumption. Spending energy and materials on capital to decarbonize the world is cool and good, but having everyone eat 3,000 calories of beef every day in a single-family home with a yard on top of their mountain of disposable plastic crap isn't feasible. But let's not talk about Beefs Georg who is an outlier and should not be considered in global planning. What's something you are currently doing that you need to stop due to its carbon impact?
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Aug 28, 2019 01:56
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What if we eat the carbon
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Aug 28, 2019 01:58
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fishmech posted:But let's not talk about Beefs Georg who is an outlier and should not be considered in global planning. What's something you are currently doing that you need to stop due to its carbon impact? Eating meat more than once a week (and eating red meat at all), eating fruit that's out of season/doesn't grow within a reasonable range of where I live, having the AC so low/the heat so high, traveling so far for work and pleasure, having two-day shipping, all sorts of poo poo. In the hypothetical eco-communist future I'm gonna have to live more communally and not eat cheeseburgers anymore, I fully accept that. Before you ask, no I'm not giving up cheeseburgers right now because they're one of the few enjoyable things left in my current life and I don't particularly feel like giving up minor luxuries while Jeff Bezos, the Koch Brother
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Aug 28, 2019 02:05
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Crazycryodude posted:Yeah sorry I should've specified personal consumer consumption. Spending energy and materials on capital to decarbonize the world is cool and good, but having everyone eat 3,000 calories of beef every day in a single-family home with a yard on top of their mountain of disposable plastic crap isn't feasible. I might be reaching here and speculating about your motivations, but you should probably also list things that you like as well instead of only things you consider to be tacky and low class like McDonald's and suburban tract housing. I bet you like things like air travel, constant availability of all kinds of fresh fruits and vegetables year round, hot water, etc. etc. These things are a part of the American standard of living as well.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:06
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silence_kit posted:I bet you like things like air travel, constant availability of all kinds of fresh fruits and vegetables year round, hot water, etc. etc. These things are a part of the American standard of living as well. First two gotta go, hot water and basic sanitation are the kind of thing we CAN provide everyone and still have a planet although maybe we're gonna have to keep the showers below 10 minutes instead of 45  The planet can definitely support a decent standard of living for every human being, I just don't agree that American and decent are the same thing. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 02:11
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Start by guillotining the owner of every single superyacht in the planet
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Aug 28, 2019 02:25
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Crazycryodude posted:First two gotta go, hot water and basic sanitation are the kind of thing we CAN provide everyone and still have a planet although maybe we're gonna have to keep the showers at 10-15 minutes instead of 45 Industry, commercial vehicles (including boats and planes), agriculture, and grid energy generation are the huge majority of all energy consumption. Cars and cheeseburgers and computers and A/C is jack poo poo. Just decarbonizing the grid, and decarbonizing industrial equipment that burns poo poo instead of using electricity would take away more than half of all emissions. Electric vehicles would take away another 25%. Locally sourced agriculture instead of mega-farms and subsidies would cut into that even more. If these efforts make beef too expensive to generally eat, fine... but that's not exactly an axiom, and people love their meat enough to make other sacrifices to keep it around.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:26
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Kill all superyachts, they add literally no value to anyone but a privileged few and burn outrageous amounts of diesel
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Aug 28, 2019 02:28
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Infinite Karma posted:Industry, commercial vehicles (including boats and planes), agriculture, and grid energy generation are the huge majority of all energy consumption. Cars and cheeseburgers and computers and A/C is jack poo poo. Where do you think cheeseburgers come from?
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Aug 28, 2019 02:29
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America?
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Aug 28, 2019 02:34
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Infinite Karma posted:Industry, commercial vehicles (including boats and planes), agriculture, and grid energy generation are the huge majority of all energy consumption. Cars and cheeseburgers and computers and A/C is jack poo poo. Do you think that industrial production and shipping is done for a lark and is just for show? Do you realize that all of that stuff, maybe indirectly, supports yours and others' ways of life? edit: part of post removed for being stupid silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 02:38
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Platystemon posted:Where do you think cheeseburgers come from? Industrial processes grow cow feed (and government corruption subsidizes corn/soy feed production), and diesel trucks drive the meat to a store that is powered by grid energy, where it gets shoveled into my goony mouth. Removing fossil fuels from these equations doesn't make beef carbon-free, but it cuts out a huge, huge amount of carbon with no change to anything. On the other hand, giving up beef while we still ship containers full of plastic toys and t-shirts overseas, burn coal to keep the lights on, and stock grocery stores with diesel trucks is pointless, but makes us feel like we're doing our part, while our corporate overlords keep destroying the world and probably turn a bigger profit on our new diet. edit: silence_kit posted:Do you think that industrial production and shipping is done for a lark and is just for show, and that all of the goods you and others enjoy are actually created in Star Trek replicators powered by the U.S.S. Enterprise's Warp Engine, and are beamed down to retail stores by its transporter? Infinite Karma fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 02:41
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Infinite Karma posted:Industry, commercial vehicles (including boats and planes), agriculture, and grid energy generation are the huge majority of all energy consumption. Cars and cheeseburgers and computers and A/C is jack poo poo. you contradicted yourself twice in one loving sentence that's breathtaking
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Aug 28, 2019 02:43
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Crazycryodude posted:Eating meat more than once a week (and eating red meat at all), eating fruit that's out of season/doesn't grow within a reasonable range of where I live, having the AC so low/the heat so high, traveling so far for work and pleasure, having two-day shipping, all sorts of poo poo. In the hypothetical eco-communist future I'm gonna have to live more communally and not eat cheeseburgers anymore, I fully accept that. Ok so here's the thing though: if we put you in a relatively modern housing complex in a city with a steam system, it would be essentially trivial to keep you at whatever temperatures you like off what would otherwise be waste heat produced in electrical generation for vital things (hell with enough of an extensive system of such type it could even be semidetached housing or even fully detached housing). If we expand electrification of routes and vehicles you can travel like crazy with minimal extra energy expended on routes already serving tons of vital use (and for that matter, shifting a large amount of foods around too even if they're from "far" away). And so on and so forth. Your personal consumption needn't change all that much, since the fundamental structure of what allows you to consume it would be changing as part of necessary global changes. Infinite Karma posted:Locally sourced agriculture instead of mega-farms and subsidies would cut into that even more. Buddy you're going to be running megafarms if you want "locally sourced" feeding of cities, unless you're after a massive population decentralization on the order of 50s sci-fi fantasies that also thought we wouldn't need cities anymore cuz you could just fly your personal helicopter to work. Small farming is pointless waste if you're after reducing resource consumption. And subsidies don't really have much to do with energy consumption or emissions: for crops they typically serve to allow farmers to make more money off less crop.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:45
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Once we're on the other side of the crisis and have essentially infinite carbon-free electricity and a built out infrastructure to support everything running on copious amounts of carbon-free electrons then yes, we can have as high a standard of living as we have joules of energy to pump into the system. I'm more talking about the transitional period between now and the hypothetical fully automated luxury gay space communist future where we DON'T have infinity energy and a bunch of already-built zero carbon capital.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:49
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fishmech posted:Buddy you're going to be running megafarms if you want "locally sourced" feeding of cities, unless you're after a massive population decentralization on the order of 50s sci-fi fantasies that also thought we wouldn't need cities anymore cuz you could just fly your personal helicopter to work.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:49
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fishmech posted:Small farming is pointless waste if you're after reducing resource consumption. Also, what are the people who live in areas where agriculture doesn't work too well supposed to do? I mean, it's easy to say "Well, just don't live where you can't grow your own food locally," but that's walling off even more land area to human existence then we'll lose from worst-case global warming itself. Growing food is something that hugely benefits from economies of scale. There are areas that are really really good for growing citrus fruit, and areas that aren't. It's less resource-intensive to grow a shitload of citrus in those areas, even if you use diesel to transport them, then for everyone to try to grow citrus locally. Ditto for wheat. And rice. And everything. Infinite Karma posted:My little brain imagines that we eat what's in season and grown relatively locally, even on megafarms, so that was phrased poorly. No corn farms for 500 miles? We don't eat corn here. Can't grow apples in your climate? Guess you're not seeing them in the grocery store. Squash harvest is in fall? You don't eat them in spring. No everybody everywhere needs tomatoes and lettuce if they need to be shipped thiousands of miles. No staple grains? Fine, just die then. gently caress you, *Japan*. Platystemon posted:Put a tax on the emission of greenhouse gases and let people use their resource allocations (“money”) as they wish. This. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 02:52
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Put a tax on the emission of greenhouse gases and let people use their resource allocations (“money”) as they wish. You can have that apple flown in from Argentina. It’s just going to cost a fair amount. If you’d rather have a cheeseburger, knock yourself out.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:53
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Your individual decisions are irrelevant. "To fight climate change you'll need to make sacrifices to your standard of living" is, 9 times out of 10, a distraction tactic used by people who could actually fix stuff properly at a system wide level.
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Aug 28, 2019 09:29
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Splode posted:Your individual decisions are irrelevant. "To fight climate change you'll need to make sacrifices to your standard of living" is, 9 times out of 10, a distraction tactic used by people who could actually fix stuff properly at a system wide level. This is true in the same sense that a single American citizen's vote for Donald Trump doesn't matter. I think the idea I have seen stated elsewhere in this subforum which is 'I'm not part of the problem--pollution is all industry's fault and that has nothing to do with me' is very misleading. The demands and preferences of American consumers and voters definitely are partially responsible for global warming. Americans like big cars, big houses in suburbs, cheap air travel, free two day shipping, cheap consumer products, and so on, and industry is providing these things for them. edit: This reminds me of one time in the Tech Bubble thread on this subforum, where like 99% of the content is just the same post over and over again complaining about how tech startups' mode of operation is to price their products/services below cost, to ignore government regulations, and to hemorrhage money. One day one of the tech startup companies announced that they were going to raise price (and later it came out that this was likely done to cover the costs of complying with some financial regulation designed to prevent money laundering) and everyone in the thread got extremely upset and their response to the price hike was: 'I'm no longer giving them MY business!' and 'Some other company is going to come in and eat their lunch!' I guess this is all just to say that consumer preference kind of matters and can drive companies' decisions, and also that D&D posters can be pretty dumb and shortsighted, lol silence_kit fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 12:03
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Aug 28, 2019 13:18
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StabbinHobo posted:this is totally schizophrenic jibberish that i can't even follow let alone discern a point from. Since we're talking psychology, you should check out projection: quote:Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings [...]
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Aug 28, 2019 13:25
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It’s true that the rich can, should, but won’t sacrifice more, but there’s no magic lever to be pulled that fixes the system but leaves everyone living the same. “The system” is just the sum of what it takes to provide for eight billion lives, and some lifestyles are more demanding than others.
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Aug 28, 2019 13:27
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Platystemon posted:It’s true that the rich can, should, but won’t sacrifice more, but there’s no magic lever to be pulled that fixes the system but leaves everyone living the same. I can think of one lever that could do some good. 
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Aug 28, 2019 13:43
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StabbinHobo posted:juch like anti-semites and race "realists", you bullshit impossible nonsense (10 trillion for fusion!) and when pressed on any of it retreat and shift goal posts to anything no matter how trivial, like salads. the goal is to sand bag. to ride the brakes. to waste time. you would rather the world burn than possibly entertain the notion that your youtube&wikipedia nuclear energy policy is supported by zero electable officials and a trivial rounding error of the population. bernie is literally proposing to invest 16 trillion earth dollars, which even assuming massive continued failure and zero economies of scale in nuclear construction would buy ca. 1600 GW sized reactors i.e. decarbonise the us several times over StabbinHobo posted:look at the threads or the comment sections literally anywhere on the internet the day of and day after bernie's plan announcement bernie's plan will work about as well as germany's plan, i.e. some low hanging fruit will make it appear to work for a few years but when nuke starts shutting down it'll stall out and co2 will continue to get emitted at horrific levels i'm frowning on hundreds of millions of dead southeast asians a little harder so loving spare us the smarm you self righteous poo poo
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Aug 28, 2019 14:13
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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better do nothing then
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Aug 28, 2019 16:47
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Rime posted:DNV was willing to continue forking cash into Pattern to bail out Henvey Inlet, and their auditors missed extremely basic poo poo being super broken, so I'm not sure I trust their industry assessments. This is from a ways back, but I think it's worth revisiting. Class is baked into our fundamental systems in a way most people don't recognize. I'm going to speak to the maritime side of it, as that's what I know. But all governments... and here I do mean all but a very, very few, I might have more testicles than governments that don't and certainly have more fingers trust the class societies. Coast Guard finds a deficiency, they turn to class. Flag state finds a deficiency, they turn to class. Now most of thier real expertise is in the more traditional, diesel engines, steam, gas turbines, steel structure. But basically class certification is foundational to the SOLAS treaty functioning. What they do makes a tremendous difference in the world and they're the boring background front line of keeping everybody safe. No ship sails without (public ships being exempt from some lifesaving requirements) class oversight. As a system it mostly works properly so well, most people don't know it even exists. But it's a system created by people. None of those people know all the parts of the system. They engage in inspections outside of thier personal experience ocassionally. Even more concerning is that underlying all the engineering and science is certain amount of rules that originate experientially in these organizations history that bias them towards conservative opinions (atleast regarding ship). I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds like you saw a bad auditor and they are definitely out there, but that's not really a good way to judge the competence of the whole organization. I mean I know how dumb one can be and stilll make it through the engineering programs they draw from, I got some dumb classmates. But most of them see the consequences of their proffesion and take it seriously. It's still a stunning thing that they are reaching the conclusions they are about renewables and thier place in our power generation systems. It means a change really is coming (as they ll be the ones who in a literal sense allow it to come). But it's probably too late. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 16:52
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Oh you mean classification societies, I thought you've been talking about class as in the bourgeoisie and the proletariat this whole time.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:57
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh you mean classification societies, I thought you've been talking about class as in the bourgeoisie and the proletariat this whole time. It could be worse atleast you didn't google up "rams neck tape". Apparently I had quite a few people in the dangerous chemistry thread accidentally looking at shaved sheep taint prior to a castration by using a common brand name term for black heavy duty marine tape.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:05
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StabbinHobo posted:better do nothing then If that strawman catches fire the CO2 will kill us all.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:20
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Crazycryodude posted:Eating meat more than once a week (and eating red meat at all), eating fruit that's out of season/doesn't grow within a reasonable range of where I live, having the AC so low/the heat so high, traveling so far for work and pleasure, having two-day shipping, all sorts of poo poo. In the hypothetical eco-communist future I'm gonna have to live more communally and not eat cheeseburgers anymore, I fully accept that. I gave that stuff up decades ago for health reasons. Your mileage may vary.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:35
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