(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Aug 29, 2019 20:53
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Is it fair to call china a superpower at this point? I've noticed in american politics the tone on china has changed from treating it as a dangerous upstart & more as a proper rival superpower a la the ussr Darkman Fanpage posted:he's right but also wrong Would you say 70% right 30% wrong?
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Aug 29, 2019 22:35
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It's debatable at best, China still doesn't have much in the way of power projection. Compared to the USA, it's not even a contest.
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Aug 29, 2019 22:51
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You have to wait till CNY become the 2nd world currency which will take a while.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:21
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any statistical measure per capita it's also not really there... life expectancy, income, etc... it's just geographically important since it's like 19% of all people. I also think it's relevant that Japan and then the asian tigers charted out similar development and are now pretty stagnant, and the more power the state surrenders to the growing bourgeois class the more they are going to face the same stagnation in a decade or so Each in turn basically established a special relationship in western imperialism and specifically with manufacturing goods sold abroad in world reserve currency which is a game that seems to only work to a point Modest Mao has issued a correction as of 23:24 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 23:22
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Dreddout posted:Is it fair to call china a superpower at this point? china is still very much a developing country, which the ussr also was. framing this as a superpower v. superpower contest forces the weaker country to try to catch up and thereby collapse and also gins up the population against any kind of cooperation
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Aug 29, 2019 23:26
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I actually think state capitalism is a pretty good developmental strategy (or, I guess historically is the best) but it itself is best suited to old liberal ideas of manufacture and international trade. The same kind of capitalism is seemingly a bad model for service and information industries where ideas of producing limited goods and comparative advantages don't apply, and value goes haywire. The owning class always gets to a point where they have enough power to send the value creating work somewhere else with cheaper wages and lower worker power, and after that it's a runaway effect. Once you're not a manufacturing powerhouse how do you keep growing stably? Instead it's a relative reduction in social power for the working class and things settle into the existential post modern nightmare half the planet lives in, high suicide rates, low birth rates, and totally aimless false middle class existence. at least that's how it seems to me, and China seems on course for that although it can internalize the "sending the work where wages are lower" to a better degree due to uneven development in the last few decades. Then again you can see some pretty insane poverty driving around Japan, Korea or the USA so idk
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Aug 29, 2019 23:33
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Modest Mao posted:I actually think state capitalism is a pretty good developmental strategy (or, I guess historically is the best) but it itself is best suited to old liberal ideas of manufacture and international trade. i don't think plotting things out on the same trajectory imperial core countries and their semi-peripheral colonies walked is very well-reasoned. urbanization and the development of industry means even more of the population will be proletarianized. they will make demands the state will have to answer, which is already happening within existing frameworks rather than outside militancy.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:00
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Dreddout posted:Is it fair to call china a superpower at this point? The Chinese economy is around the same size of the US, the Soviet economy was never more than 40-50%, what do you think
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Aug 30, 2019 00:14
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R. Guyovich posted:i don't think plotting things out on the same trajectory imperial core countries and their semi-peripheral colonies walked is very well-reasoned. urbanization and the development of industry means even more of the population will be proletarianized. they will make demands the state will have to answer, which is already happening within existing frameworks rather than outside militancy. https://maps.clb.org.hk/strikes/en A majority of those strikes are either ignored or responded to via police action. I find it intensely funny that you think democratic answers to these issues are a joke, but go full-in on bureaucratic solutions to problems. Grapplejack has issued a correction as of 00:25 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 00:20
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Yeah and China is only going to grow stronger. Their conventional military power isn't as threatening as the USSR yet and they don't have nearly as many nukes but they don't need them when they make all the world's poo poo and buy up all the debt needed to fund the American war machine
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Aug 30, 2019 00:20
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Nuclear weapons aside the USSR was never a real threat to America either, they were made into an aggressive military superpower by propaganda to justify America's unrelenting drive for global dominance
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Aug 30, 2019 00:24
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Wheeee posted:Nuclear weapons aside the USSR was never a real threat to America either, they were made into an aggressive military superpower by propaganda to justify America's unrelenting drive for global dominance Yeah, exactly. In natsec terms however, they are both "real threats" in the sense that they are powerful enough not to be bullied by the U.S.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:29
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The Russkies were too dogmetic. The Chinese were way more practical in figuring out the economy.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:49
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https://twitter.com/SimoneGao/status/1163981136160317445 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tang_Dynasty_Television
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Aug 30, 2019 00:50
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tino posted:The Russkies were too dogmetic. The Chinese were way more practical in figuring out the economy. the ussr at its collapse had a higher gdp per capita than china does now.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:52
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What sources are you using? From googling it looks like 2019 China is ~2k higher.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:01
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:the ussr at its collapse had a higher gdp per capita than china does now. Well they were too dogmetic and were not making consumer products that people actually want.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:03
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Wheeee posted:Nuclear weapons aside the USSR was never a real threat to America either, they were made into an aggressive military superpower by propaganda to justify America's unrelenting drive for global dominance The USSR was a threat geopolitically in terms of the Soviet Union leading a Second World network in opposition to the First World, where the Second World could attain marginal or outright independence from First World colonialism. The fact the USSR was baited into playing the geopolitical game proved to be a long run mistake, because they had to provide security to the Warsaw Pact, and honor its commitments abroad to other Second World countries - which they usually betrayed because they didn't have the means to protect them despite saying they did. The military expenditures of the Soviet Union were a massive element of their budget, and it hampered their ability to grow and satisfy social demands after the mid-70s. The Chinese on the other hand don't have to ever bother with playing the geopolitical game on that same scale. The global trade networks are already established and ready to be exploited. The Second World is gone so there's nothing to protect. If they want to be a neocolonial rival then all they have to do is exploit the already existing world economy. This is what really drives China hawks insane, that China is playing the same game as we are without committing to all of the counterproductive military expenditures that the United States does in order to maintain neocolonial relations. They benefit from the US security umbrella without playing by the rules of international trade, which were designed to hamper the growth of developing countries. If the implicit threat of the US military isn't enough to maintain the Washington Consensus, then the United States is no longer the locus of global capitalism. What else do we offer the world? Intellectual Property? Just steal that poo poo, dude. It's only data. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:https://twitter.com/SimoneGao/status/1163981136160317445 that's a dang shame i tell ya whut
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Aug 30, 2019 01:06
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Mantis42 posted:What sources are you using? From googling it looks like 2019 China is ~2k higher. i was looking at 2017 numbers i guess but yeah, they are slightly higher now. irregardless chastising the USSR for being too "dogmatic" towards socialism while celebrating chinese embrace of capitalism when it has only just now reached soviet levels is lol tino posted:Well they were too dogmetic and were not making consumer products that people actually want. otoh they were actually socialist and didnt have inequality nearly as bad as the United States and worse than most of Europe.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:08
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Saying the USSR was too "dogmatic" is insanely reductionist. I mean, the USSR fell apart mostly because of Gorbachev's failed attempts at liberal reforms.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:12
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Grapplejack posted:https://maps.clb.org.hk/strikes/en a majority of these "strikes" are wage disputes that are handled either by the firm or the labor union. they also represent a tiny fraction of the 800-million-strong labor force in china. clb is also run by an rfa guy. so, uh, gently caress off!
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Aug 30, 2019 01:13
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Saying the USSR was too "dogmatic" is insanely reductionist. I mean, the USSR fell apart mostly because of Gorbachev's failed attempts at liberal reforms. Yeah, the new leadership tried to solve their stagnation from the ideological angle, while Deng tried to cross the river in the general direction by winging it, hence too dogmatic.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:26
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tino posted:Yeah, the new leadership tried to solve their stagnation from the ideological angle, while Deng tried to cross the river in the general direction by winging it, hence too dogmatic. This doesn't make any sense. China's marketization reforms worked because they were gradual and limited to experimental regions, while Gorbachev tried completely overhauling the whole Soviet system. That's not an issue of "dogmatism." If the USSR was too dogmatic there never would've been a perestroika.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:30
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One thing I'm thinking is usually core countries have art / culture that is 'enviable', or influential and exported to the world, but china isn't currently a strong cultural exporter except maybe chinese medicine to Africa, and China's use of Chinese labor in their international projects is also kinda hard for me to wrap my head around. I guess I did learn to speak decent Chinese but I'm a weirdo who ended up in that sphere rather than it coming to me. I don't see the world sinicizing besides some businessmen learning Mandarin, but that's how colonialism worked too I don't think it's really indicative...
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Aug 30, 2019 01:34
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Tangential anecdote but I've never seen a businessman successfully learn Mandarin. My early baby Chinese classes were full of business majors who thought they were gonna slam that Mandarin into their heads, no need to learn characters you just gotta get the spoken language down, and then they'd go on to run a GM plant in Chongqing and pack it all away but they'd never make it more than a semester or two. It also isn't really that important, since translators and interpreters are a thing. Even in diplomacy, relatively few people are expected to master a host country's language to do work there.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:42
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R. Guyovich posted:a majority of these "strikes" are wage disputes that are handled either by the firm or the labor union. they also represent a tiny fraction of the 800-million-strong labor force in china. clb is also run by an rfa guy. so, uh, gently caress off! What do you use to get data on China, anyway? It's hard to find good stuff in English. The NBSC is helpful but a lot of numbers aren't available. I'm sure if I could speak Mandarin I could dig through party excerpts but
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Aug 30, 2019 01:43
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It's really hard for grown-ups to learn tones. Even Mandarin speakers can't learn to speak fluent Cantonese as an adult. I have only seen some female singer exceptions.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:51
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Modest Mao posted:One thing I'm thinking is usually core countries have art / culture that is 'enviable', or influential and exported to the world, but china isn't currently a strong cultural exporter except maybe chinese medicine to Africa, and China's use of Chinese labor in their international projects is also kinda hard for me to wrap my head around. I guess I did learn to speak decent Chinese but I'm a weirdo who ended up in that sphere rather than it coming to me. the art and culture follows from pre-existing colonial revenues. the world didn’t Anglicize or Francophize because they were culturally compelled to, they were literally forced to at the end of a gun. even if people learn mandarin as a business or trade language, they’re not gonna Sinicize if they don’t have to.
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Aug 30, 2019 02:00
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https://twitter.com/aivaras_aivaras/status/1167041585902694402?s=20
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Aug 30, 2019 02:39
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This world is a waking nightmare
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Aug 30, 2019 02:42
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If the Hong Kong protesters are being inspired by Ukraine are they gonna be shot at by hardcore secessionists as part of a false flag next
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Aug 30, 2019 02:57
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Atrocious Joe posted:If the Hong Kong protesters are being inspired by Ukraine are they gonna be
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Aug 30, 2019 03:02
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As a deaf person a tonal language seems like an actual nightmare to try to learn how to lipread, let alone learn how to speak it. How do deaf people in China fare?
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Aug 30, 2019 03:03
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500 years of history reborn
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Aug 30, 2019 03:04
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Aug 30, 2019 03:34
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SKULL.GIF posted:As a deaf person a tonal language seems like an actual nightmare to try to learn how to lipread, let alone learn how to speak it. How do deaf people in China fare? They have Chinese Sign Language, of course. But that's all I know.
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Aug 30, 2019 04:29
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SKULL.GIF posted:As a deaf person a tonal language seems like an actual nightmare to try to learn how to lipread, let alone learn how to speak it. How do deaf people in China fare? major broadcasts have sign language interpretation and there's a prc sign language that's widespread
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Aug 30, 2019 04:46
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I never thought about it before but I bet live closed-captioning would be a real pain in the rear end in Chinese (and Japanese), because I'm not sure an input method exists that would be able to type and select characters fast enough to keep up with the pace of human speech. I guess in another 5 years AI and speech recognition will make it a moot point anyway.
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Aug 30, 2019 04:51
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Known Lecher posted:I never thought about it before but I bet live closed-captioning would be a real pain in the rear end in Chinese (and Japanese), because I'm not sure an input method exists that would be able to type and select characters fast enough to keep up with the pace of human speech. Chinese TV doesn't have the closed caption function anyway.
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Aug 30, 2019 05:27
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