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Quavers posted:Kerbal Space Program Complete = $24.70 Hell at $15/month that's 3 years and 9 months of a MMO subscriptions.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:14
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Agony Aunt posted:They already have their excuses ready. Already had this disucssion. I suspect the gymnastics level is going to depend how good/bad Elite FPS is.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:18
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Quavers posted:Kerbal Space Program Complete = $24.70 You're also forgetting, the Minelayer DLC is behind an additionally $1000 paywall, plus another $275 dinner party that you had to pay for and attend for the privilege of buying it.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:22
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https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1   lol Squadron 42 Beta delayed by 3 months
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Aug 30, 2019 18:22
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MedicineHut posted:I suspect the gymnastics level is going to depend how good/bad Elite FPS is. Nah, you don't keep the faith by being swerved by 'facts' or little things like comparative cost. No, you throw more money down on Chris Roberts, a man who ostensibly coded during the time of assembly and couldn't describe how conservation of momentum works in translation or rotation without being prompted by a guy that calls himself 'Lord British'. I'm sure that Chris can handle matrix transforms in someone else's framework like a loving Boss. I mean, they're really hopeless believing that Chris' ten hours at a keyboard doesn't involve pornhub. Daztek posted:lol Early days, Fuddy Gooner. I'm sure that they can make that 6-12 months without any real effort. Edit: 'Staggered Development' doesn't deserve the capitalisation. Roadmaps change, but if you change them too much, they cease being roadmaps and merely become aspirational. What they entirely miss is simply telling people the number of tasks they actually have until they're 'complete'; that's the bit that they hide with the roadmap, which changes, because presumably the finished product is _the finished product_. That's also why they conflate Star Citizen with Squadron 42....this is the shell game. Pretty sure that they're going to start interchanging them again, so you'll never quite know what the progress actually is until the revenue slows down. This was Doublefine's model for early access at one point for DF-9: Once the early access sales slowed, they canned the team and walked away from a game in progress. Hav fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 18:24
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MedicineHut posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/have-cig-got-enough-funds-to-finish-the-pu-if-sq42 quote:Hey everyone, INSUFFICIENT WORSHIP OF CHRIS DETECTED, THREAD DELETED
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Aug 30, 2019 18:26
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Daztek posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1 "It's important to note that we are still in Alpha."
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Aug 30, 2019 18:26
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Daztek posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1  What the ever loving gently caress is this? quote:our dev team may be working on 3.7 features, tech and content, while the other half would be working on 3.8. Once the team working on 3.7 delivers the patch, they would then transition to 3.9. Rinse and repeat. I seriously cannot even begin to understand this. What in the gently caress are they doing? This may as well be in Greek to me. That's... that makes no sense. Why on earth would you ever do that? Why... that's not how... how... WHAT? Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 18:27
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A 12 week delay sounds more like about 2 years really.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:31
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Daztek posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1   
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Aug 30, 2019 18:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqy8MmUUyYs
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Aug 30, 2019 18:38
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Dementropy posted:"It's important to note that we are still in Alpha." Their excuses have, however, gone gold. Edit: Cymelion, the reason for agile in the first place is that you avoid 'blockers', especially within a team. If you end up 'blocked', you route around the problem. What they're actually running up against is things like the unforeseen complications of adding a fuckton of ships, but never actually getting the 'docking' procedures down on paper to inform the ship designers that there are 'guard rails'. Usually game designers are so loving pleased with their design documents that they'll let people read them, mainly because it increases confidence, but also because it gives developers things to work to. A bit like test-driven coding, but more a suggestion than a test. Hav fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 18:39
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Wait... that dev says the game is still Alpha ... but Christ said the game was complete. I’m so confused ... I better just spend another $800 on a minelayer to alleviate this head pain I’m feeling... yes.... yes... now the rubbing is helping too.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:41
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Is it just me (I am really really hungover), or does the latest "Pillar Talk" make no sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqy8MmUUyYs It sounds like a bunch of gibberish about production timelines and SC/SQ42. Just some random phrases and development, Or maybe I should just drink less. 
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Aug 30, 2019 18:42
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quote:Staggering the teams like this means 6-month cycles for development instead of 3, which means more time to ensure features are more complete with fewer bugs. The more I read this the more I'm convinced that there isn't a single person at CIG with any experience managing software development These guys are still developing on the waterfall model like its the 90s And rather than learning proper agile mentality they've decided to invent their own leapfrog waterfall model. Its staggering.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:44
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Daztek posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1 So much win concentrated in this here single post. quote:Does this mean we’ll receive less content each quarter? We have been loving up big time for 7 years with all our multiple roadmaps and dates. But this time is different. Trust us. quote:How will this impact features on the Roadmap? What do we mean by re-calibration? Why, more delays and cancellations of course. But you are a gullible fucker that falls for stupid buzz words and know a lot about games development, so there. quote:How does this impact the vehicle pipeline? Yeah. Jpeg sales are the only thing that has never been delayed and we do not plan it to be in the future. Count on us. quote:What does this mean for Squadron 42? After all these lies and fuckery, do you still believe us? Did you like that bridge? Yeh? Ok then, SQ42 beta will be delayed 3 months. At least. There, gently caress you. But do not worry, it is really a very good thing. MedicineHut fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 18:44
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Der Shovel posted:Honestly, in any sane universe they would have just laser focused on SQ42 from the start. Used that to make the basic gameplay fun as hell, get the flight model nailed on etc. They can also use that project to start building assets, to start building lore, start building the universe. Then when SQ42 is done, start to build Star Citizen by reusing the flight model etc. Doing it the other way around ("we're building an MMO, and the single player is a gimped version of that running on your local machine!") is just insane, and it's extremely loving telling that 8 years on they still haven't even gotten the flight model to a decent place. Yes absolutely. They would have established credibility as well.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:45
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Aug 30, 2019 18:46
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I said come in! posted:A 12 week delay sounds more like about 2 years really. A few weeks back, I worked out progress based on past performance. Just whiteboxing alone is shaping up to take about six months longer than necessary. They are a year in and don't have a single chapter greyboxed yet, and if their estimates for that are optimistic, things are looking rough. Zaphod42 posted:
It's the next reason lined up for gutting future patches. "Sorry guys, delays incurred by the 'make the game work' team have prevented us from releasing measurable progress this year, but don't worry, we're still able to release 'Gun #8 and toilet sitting mocap' features regularly just like we promised in our quarterly release cadence."
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Aug 30, 2019 18:46
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Dooguk posted:Watched jackfrags play this on YouTube a few times. Not my type of game but he seems to enjoy it. I'm not going to flat out say it's a bad game now - it still has a ton, atmosphere especially, going for it, but all the same as someone that had been playing it for the last year+ it's just a bit sour to see so much of what made it really unique (and yes, in a lot of ways more difficult to approach) tossed by the wayside. It's definitely the 'right move' to make it more appealing to the masses, as such. But it's like if Red Orchestra - excessive detailed 'realism' WW2 shooter - suddenly dropped all of those 'too complicated' bits because CoD is easier to pick up and play. From a marketing standpoint though, green lights baby!
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Aug 30, 2019 18:50
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"Staggered Development" is just too good. This is a farce.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:51
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luetm posted:Yes absolutely. They would have established credibility as well. The lack of minimum viable product is somewhat telling. That they almost immediately pivoted from a space flight game to an FPS shooter, in Cryengine, tells you where the capability actually was, and what the bigger problems were going to be. Amusingly, this was exactly the same move that managed to gently caress over CCP and their aspirations to sell dolly-dress up to _Eve players_, of all the MMO groups to target. Literally the moment for me was the 'Procedural birds' comment from Chris. No idea how to implement, no clue what it was going to be, but a full-throated support of it, whatever it was. If you want to be slightly more serious, the 'boarding' gameplay, which was supposed to have people gaining entry to ships, has been completely shaded and the docking rings taken out quietly before they started work on the newer ships.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:51
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They had two weeks and this is the best they could do? A ten minute video with Erin sounding even less lucid than Chris. Actually, everything is slower on purpose due to a new buzzword... wow Erin is just stating the obvious, and backers will convince themselves that this was a sufficient explanation.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:52
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7 years in, supposed to release an entire game next year, and their message to their community is... "We're changing our project management structure because the old one wasn't working." Very good. Very normal.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:52
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Can't Combo Break Staggered Developmemt
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Aug 30, 2019 18:54
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Daztek posted:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/staggered-development-faq-1 Every large scale 'live service' game I've ever worked on is built like this. Not everyone is expected to finish their part of the milestone at the same time, and while gameplay / level design / etc. might work on the next immediate patch, engine is often feature locked for that patch before most of gameplay and friends touch it, so their milestone is the next one. Level is often finished before systems, so they will move onto the next milestone sooner. This is not new, and if they seriously had all hands working on the same patch at the same time, regardless of role or needs of the project until now, that's certifiably insane. I think the only game that I know of that actually has all hands on the same patch might be Path of Exile, a project where that makes sense due to an incredibly aggressive content pipeline. Even here, it's probably just 'less staggered' than most other games. This is exceedingly rare. Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 18:55
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Rotten Red Rod posted:7 years in, supposed to release an entire game next year, and their message to their community is... "We're changing our project management structure because the old one wasn't working."  'Current' meaning in the past.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:55
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What if instead of pushing back half of the features mid development cycle, we start the cycle with half the features?
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Aug 30, 2019 18:57
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Every large scale 'live service' game I've ever worked on is built like this. Not everyone is expected to finish their part of the milestone at the same time, and while gameplay / level design / etc. might work on the next immediate patch, engine is often feature locked for that patch before most of gameplay and friends touch it, so their milestone is the next one. This is not new, and if they seriously had all hands working on the same patch at the same time, regardless of role or needs of the project until now, that's certifiably insane. Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Like... they should have been doing this from the start. What in the hell. They've seriously had everybody trying to sync every deliverable?
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Aug 30, 2019 18:57
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Zaphod42 posted:
Imagine if they actually worked like that. Half of the company working on one patch, the other half on the other. How would they get anything done? If they share the codebase, the other half is always in the middle of development while the other one is trying to make a release. If they're working on separate branches, they would have to go through a huge merge (six months out of date!) on every release. Either way, it's a huge mess. I guess they'll try it for a while and revert back once it becomes clear it's not working. Or they don't change anything at all and just pretend that everything is fixed the secret dev version.
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Aug 30, 2019 18:57
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Agony Aunt posted:the backers are obviously the
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Aug 30, 2019 18:58
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MedicineHut posted:We have been loving up big time for 7 years with all our multiple roadmaps and dates. But this time is different. Trust us. You keyed in on the same thing I did. “It’s going to be slower at first, but speed will ramp up”. How many times have we heard this? The funny thing about Star Citizen reddit is they often mock the sentiment of “dev speed will ramp up” because they know it’s ridiculous and it makes them sound less biased and more “reasonable”. But they also mock the people saying the game will never come out. You can’t have it both ways. Dev speed must ramp up or the game will never come out. Pick one.
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Aug 30, 2019 19:04
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Zaphod42 posted:
Let me use this example: Imagine four quarterly patches on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the patch nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of patches and takes the place of the first patch. The formerly first patch becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. Star Citizen's roadmap works the same way.
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Aug 30, 2019 19:06
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iron buns posted:Imagine if they actually worked like that. Half of the company working on one patch, the other half on the other. How would they get anything done? They aren't working on anything but art assets.
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Aug 30, 2019 19:06
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iron buns posted:Or they don't change anything at all and just pretend that everything is fixed the secret dev version. Amusingly, if you check out the roadmap, given the "Staggered Development" (which seems to refer to Erin's locomotion), you'd expect to see progress in the next two quarters to indicate that one team has one, and another another. They've got progress in Q1 2020's work, apparently. So what I think is that they're gathering these things into Epics. Epics are meta-collections of stories that make up a larger job, so the physics queue refactor - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/2-Squadron-42/card/446-Physics-Queue-Refactor - is actually 90-odd stories collected under the Epic. Thing is that they're loving up their own sprint/release schedule based on shifting outside of the sprint planning.
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Aug 30, 2019 19:08
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I wish MoMA was here to tell us how this is good for Star Citizen
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Aug 30, 2019 19:13
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Aug 30, 2019 19:17
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For comparison, another Starbase update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pU-pbuECGY 5 minutes have more thought on ship design than thousands of hours of videos about SC dreams
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Aug 30, 2019 19:18
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Also of note: they STILL haven't addressed SSOCS outside of that one second-hand comment. Total radio silence on it.
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Aug 30, 2019 19:21
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Aug 30, 2019 19:21
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