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Not a Children posted:Next time put a pie in the sky or "negotiable" or "0" in the field. It was the “doesn’t hurt to ask” part I was worried about. I won’t count on getting it, but as long as it’s not considered rude or unacceptable I thought I might as well try. Thanks.
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Sep 4, 2019 14:00
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leper khan posted:Often if the form doesn’t accept 0 it will accept 1. I have done this many times and can confirm that it works. If it's good enough for The Price Is Right it's good enough for a hiring manager.
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Sep 4, 2019 14:25
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Blue Scream posted:When I applied for a job, the application wouldn’t let me progress without filling in a salary field. So I did. After 3 interviews and a reference check, they offered me the job at the salary I asked for. I asked for 24 hours to think about it. Is it poor form to ask for 10% more ($55K versus $50K offer)? Honestly I intend to accept the job anyway, I just thought I’d see if there would be harm in asking. Don’t want to start the job off with them thinking I’m a bad sport. So yeah, like everyone else said, don't put a real number there. However, this is the point where you're *supposed* to negotiate so it definitely won't look like poor form. They might not budge since you gave a number, but if they're dicks about it (like acting surprised/appalled you'd ask for more), I'd recommend not working there because they're probably awful since this is totally the normal time to negotiate. Also if you want 55k, ask for at least 60-65 or they're gonna give you like 52 if they bump it up at all.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:21
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m0therfux0r posted:So yeah, like everyone else said, don't put a real number there. However, this is the point where you're *supposed* to negotiate so it definitely won't look like poor form. They might not budge since you gave a number, but if they're dicks about it (like acting surprised/appalled you'd ask for more), I'd recommend not working there because they're probably awful since this is totally the normal time to negotiate. I legit think they’d turn me down if I asked for $10-15k more. It’s higher education, so although they want me, there’s not a huge pool of money or a shortage of hungry applicants in the wings. I’d be happy with 52, tbh. It’s tough out there and I want to move asap. And I put a number also because they gave not even the slightest indication of a salary band. Putting in a number, and then getting a call, was the only indicator I had of whether or not they’d offer me anything at all in my range. It was crazy, I felt like I was in a mystery novel where you only find out whodunit on the last page.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:03
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Just had an initial screener call and the person was pretty insistent on getting a number. I ended up taking my current base salary and tacking on our bonuses and tossed another 10k on top of that. Ended up being too high for the role but she did say she might have another one. I guess the system sort of works? I'm currently making about 130k after bonuses/random perks right now in a consulting role and looking to get back into industry. Based on my research it seems like anything that matches my current salary but with more stability and not having to travel should be worthwhile. I'm thinking the 140 number I'm giving is pretty reasonable as a pie in the sky number? Most of the glassdoor salaries I'm seeing are a fair bit lower, like 100-125 range. Should I temper my salary expectations a bit since I'm getting out of consulting? I've heard our salaries are considered pretty high.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:08
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Blue Scream posted:I legit think they’d turn me down if I asked for $10-15k more. It's been said a bunch of times before in this thread, but if they yank your offer because of asking for that much instead of just saying "No. $50k is the max." then you don't want to work for them anyway. That'll be just the tip of the "we're a lovely and awful place to work for" iceberg. (I mean, yeah, if you ask for like $120k instead they might yank it because it seems like you're insane, but 10-15k is totally a reasonable request, whether they agree to that salary or not.) m0therfux0r fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 18:16
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bamhand posted:Just had an initial screener call and the person was pretty insistent on getting a number. I ended up taking my current base salary and tacking on our bonuses and tossed another 10k on top of that. Ended up being too high for the role but she did say she might have another one. I guess the system sort of works? You should decide what more stability and not having to travel are worth to you compared with the 130k and the likelihood that you're underpaid (it's 100% likely you're underpaid) and go from there. Salary expectations are mostly irrelevant; either the changes in your work environment are worth a difference in pay or are not worth a difference in pay, and you should answer that question for you and behave accordingly. Americans are in a disadvantaged position because so much of most people's economic activity occurs in highly structured contexts with suggested retail prices and stable, published price information broadly available for most things. Your pay is more like buying a car. Including how likely you are to get screwed.
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Sep 4, 2019 19:10
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I mean no one decides if they're happy with their pay in a vacuum. So I'm under the impression that as a consultant, and with my particular company, my pay is generally higher than what most other people in a similar industry role receives. So if I'm to move out of consulting maybe I'm wondering if I should be happy with minimal or even no pay increase. Or if I should try to spend more effort shopping around and get more money. It's not logical but in the end a person is going to be a happier if they know their salary is in the 90th percentile and the 20th percentile for their industry even if the actual number is the same. Plus if you're getting an offer that you know is at the 90th percentile then you know that you likely can't find a better one. It's silly to pick some personal number that works for you without paying attention to what's an appropriate salary for the job you're applying for. So my question is essentially, is there enough of a difference in consulting vs industry salaries that I shouldn't be expecting to make much more than I am now?
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Sep 4, 2019 19:33
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it's very hard to know that in a vacuum. it depends on your role and level at your consulting firm, the type of consulting you do, etc. i know that if i were to move in to industry (outside of a very senior position) from my senior leadership position at a small consulting firm that i would take a paycut but i've also benchmarked that poo poo extensively
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Sep 4, 2019 22:17
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bamhand posted:I mean no one decides if they're happy with their pay in a vacuum. So I'm under the impression that as a consultant, and with my particular company, my pay is generally higher than what most other people in a similar industry role receives. So if I'm to move out of consulting maybe I'm wondering if I should be happy with minimal or even no pay increase. Or if I should try to spend more effort shopping around and get more money. The answer is yes. A guy I hired went from 130K in Madison to 120K in Denver. He went from Being gone from home 5-8 days a month and working 55-60 hours to almost zero yearly travel and 40 hours a week. Consulting -> Industry. I think I pay him 132K right now (2 ish years later). It is up to you but in my example he is making more per hour worked and quality of life is hard to beat with his wife and now 2 kids. I had another guy who wouldn't make the same compromise coming from consulting. He took another consulting gig and works 60 hours a week, making 15K more a year. For him it wasn't worth it. E: This is considering you moving laterally for basically the same position (that was the case in both my examples). spwrozek fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 02:53
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bamhand posted:So my question is essentially, is there enough of a difference in consulting vs industry salaries that I shouldn't be expecting to make much more than I am now? Are you sure you're applying and looking at salary data for the right roles? Depending on the nature of the consulting, it's not necessarily a lateral move to be an individual contributor in the same field. You might be able to spin your consulting experience to land a more senior design/decision making role, plus consulting generally exposes you to more new things in a given time period than standard industry roles. Then again many consultants are unqualified idiots and sometimes it's an uphill climb to convince people you're not one of them.
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Sep 5, 2019 03:11
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I have my own negotiation question. A recruiter came to me with a position that interested me, and insisted on a number before submitting, stating that the client company requires it. I rolled my eyes and argued for a bit, but since I'm already highly paid and not actively looking, I threw out a number about 18% above my current salary and on the high end of the curve for the type of role, especially considering it's remote. Generally when I don't name a number, the offers come in much lower so I thought I'd try anchoring high and see what happens. Recruiter checked with the company and they said what I named is doable and I was submitted. Interviews all went great, and I received an email offer for less than the initial number I named (only about 7% over my current salary, though they do not know what I currently make). The recruiter confirmed that the number I named was discussed with the company and that he was a bit surprise their offer was that much lower. Obviously I'll counter, but what's my move here? I assume I respond with the same number I named previously and settle somewhere in the middle? Or do they think I want to settle at the number I named and are playing the dumb game and starting lower? That would be weird and it would be awkward to name a higher number than what I said before (though I did name my first number knowing very little about the position). At the end of the day I'd actually be happy with their initial offer because I'm getting burnt out at my current place. Both my current job and this new role are remote, so there's no moving cost or risk, and almost every aspect of the new place is better.
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Sep 6, 2019 16:45
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Erwin posted:I have my own negotiation question. A recruiter came to me with a position that interested me, and insisted on a number before submitting, stating that the client company requires it. I rolled my eyes and argued for a bit, but since I'm already highly paid and not actively looking, I threw out a number about 18% above my current salary and on the high end of the curve for the type of role, especially considering it's remote. Generally when I don't name a number, the offers come in much lower so I thought I'd try anchoring high and see what happens. Recruiter checked with the company and they said what I named is doable and I was submitted. I'd counter with your first number, emphasizing you are firm on compensation. Anything lower weakens your position.
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Sep 6, 2019 16:54
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:I'd counter with your first number, emphasizing you are firm on compensation. Anything lower weakens your position. Precisely right. FYI they probably do know your current salary if it’s in the US. There are third party companies that operate on a subscription+fee model, collecting salary data (and a lot of other data) and delivering a report on your career history when requested by a prospective employer. Most big companies use it. There was an effortpost about this a year or two ago that I can’t quickly find, but there have been articles about it too. What they don’t know is that you’re unhappy in your current job. Whatever you do, don’t tip your hand on that.
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Sep 6, 2019 17:19
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They also don't know what other offers you have in hand. If one of them happens to be 40% more than you make right now, they still have to match it if they want to hire you.
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Sep 6, 2019 17:43
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Your scramble should be to improve your BATNA, such that 18% comes into line.
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Sep 6, 2019 19:13
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I think it's pretty bad faith to demand a number out the gate, not engage anyone who won't offer that info a priori, and then, having secured that substantial advantage already, try to lowball below that. Unless there's a number of other positive indicators here, these people are probably dicks and if you aren't working with them you're probably dodging a bullet. In my own situation right now, I'd tell them "No." and literally nothing else, not even a thank you for your time, because they just so flagrantly wasted mine.
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Sep 6, 2019 20:03
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I’m hoping for a double check of my possible strategy here. I was in a great position at my current employer until recently: have a great boss, enjoy the work, and the pay is great (especially for the area). However, my organization was just bought out by a larger one and I’m not sure how long until the cuts start, but don’t want to be caught flat footed. Also, the current IT leadership just installed last year is absolutely awful and the place is a mess and my role may be changing for the worse. And even though I had a nice promotion last year, I’ve also hit a wall in terms of possible career advancement in the next few years. It’s time to move on. Anyways, I’m aggressively looking/interviewing at places. I have a former colleague and friend at a large employer in a different industry but doing roughly the same work as I do now. He fast tracked my resume from the internal recruiter to his supervisors and put in a really good word for me. The position ranges are posted internally so he sent that my way. With that knowledge, my plan is to go through the interview process, hopefully wow them, and hold out on the salary discussion until the end. Then, with my advantage in knowing the range, anchor as high as possible. If the thread is in agreement with this strategy, I then need to figure out what’s a reasonable ask. Here’s a quick breakdown of the figures: Current salary: 120k with no bonus structure Potential employer salary range: Midpoint: 92k High End: 114k Avg Yearly Gainshare bonus of 18-28% (which I’m well aware isn’t guaranteed, but even with a tough year, there are a lot of improvements with this company: partial work from home, nearly double 401k match, LOTS of room for career advancement and skill building opportunities, etc.) I obviously want to come in as high as possible on the top of the range, but don’t want to sound unreasonable. Is asking for 120k a decent anchor? Thanks in advance!
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Sep 6, 2019 21:12
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Fireside Nut posted:I’m hoping for a double check of my possible strategy here. I was in a great position at my current employer until recently: have a great boss, enjoy the work, and the pay is great (especially for the area). However, my organization was just bought out by a larger one and I’m not sure how long until the cuts start, but don’t want to be caught flat footed. Also, the current IT leadership just installed last year is absolutely awful and the place is a mess and my role may be changing for the worse. And even though I had a nice promotion last year, I’ve also hit a wall in terms of possible career advancement in the next few years. It’s time to move on. "My current salary is 120 and I would require total compensation better than that to move along" is a compelling narrative. Don't give away that you're eager to jump ship.
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Sep 6, 2019 21:34
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:"My current salary is 120and I would require total compensation better than that to move along" is a compelling narrative. Don't give away that you're eager to jump ship. This is essentially what I tell any recruiter that contacts me on LinkedIn, except I don’t tell them my salary, I just tell them “I’ll need >$salary +20%”.
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Sep 6, 2019 21:53
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:"My current salary is 120 and I would require total compensation better than that to move along" is a compelling narrative. Don't give away that you're eager to jump ship. Thank you! So you’d recommend actually giving away my current salary as part of the anchor? After reading this thread for the last year or two I have hard coded the idea of never giving away your current compensation, but I could see how the asymmetry in knowledge could help in this specific case. And, yes, I plan to frame it as I’m excited about the company, team, opportunities to expand my skillset, etc. and not about what’s going on at my current place. Great reminder though!
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Sep 6, 2019 23:23
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Fireside Nut posted:Thank you! So you’d recommend actually giving away my current salary as part of the anchor? After reading this thread for the last year or two I have hard coded the idea of never giving away your current compensation, but I could see how the asymmetry in knowledge could help in this specific case. Get through the interviews first. Be awesome, make them want you, and make them make you an offer that will get you away from your current job, which you LOVE. Be a “not in play” player.
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Sep 7, 2019 05:00
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Fireside Nut posted:Thank you! So you’d recommend actually giving away my current salary as part of the anchor? After reading this thread for the last year or two I have hard coded the idea of never giving away your current compensation, but I could see how the asymmetry in knowledge could help in this specific case. Do not give your current salary. I would recommend saying nothing and if you do say a number you'd be happy with something like total comp + 20% as given above.
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Sep 7, 2019 06:41
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I see no reason to reveal your current salary or even your expectations. There is only risk, and the risk is your expectation are so high that they cut you off before realizing what a great and awesome person you are. A reasonable company, as you seem to think they are, wouldn’t walk away just because you declined to provide a number. When you finally do negotiate with them, I’d ask for more than your current salary. You shouldn’t believe that the provided range is accurate. In plenty of places a hiring manager can find their way around it. Or things could change (e.g. somebody else in the team submits their notice). When it comes down to it, I wonder if you should really settle for anything less than a raise. A job search, and the raise that typicallly accompanies it, comes about every few years. I don’t think you should let your perceived job insecurity make this a wasted opportunity.
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Sep 7, 2019 11:45
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Vegetable posted:When you finally do negotiate with them, I’d ask for more than your current salary. You shouldn’t believe that the provided range is accurate. In plenty of places a hiring manager can find their way around it. When companies have pay grades and it is published on the intranet usually you are stuck in them. In my experience I can't offer outside the band, I can't even give someone a raise if it pushes them outside the band. When you get to HR being that well setup it is hard to get them to budge at all. Every company is different of course though, just my experience.
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Sep 7, 2019 12:23
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I think it's pretty bad faith to demand a number out the gate, not engage anyone who won't offer that info a priori, and then, having secured that substantial advantage already, try to lowball below that.
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Sep 7, 2019 12:25
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Hi thread, I asked for a salary range early on in the interview process because it wasn't on the job listing. It's for a position at a nonprofit. Do I still have room to negotiate above that range? Or should I just push for the high end?
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Sep 7, 2019 20:31
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Doc Fission posted:Hi thread, I asked for a salary range early on in the interview process because it wasn't on the job listing. It's for a position at a nonprofit. Do I still have room to negotiate above that range? Or should I just push for the high end?
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Sep 8, 2019 15:27
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Doc Fission posted:Hi thread, I asked for a salary range early on in the interview process because it wasn't on the job listing. It's for a position at a nonprofit. Do I still have room to negotiate above that range? Or should I just push for the high end? You can try to negotiate above their stated high end. But you should be asking yourself why you got to that point in the interview process when they told you that you were too expensive for them by telling you the top of their range early on in the process. Because they sure as hell will be asking you that as soon as you ask for more than their top end.
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Sep 9, 2019 17:24
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I love this thread so much. Success story: I've been in my role (let's say I'm an editor) for 3.5 years and am drat good at it. I made a play for my boss's job, was turned down, and basically topped out in my division. Time to look around... In my current role, I earn $61k, up from $55k when I started. I'm at the top of what I can earn in this role. I applied for a senior editor role that I was really interested in due to the perks (one weekly WFH day, 20-minute walk from home to work, great company reputation, fitness subsidy, client in my husband's field that I know a bit about). I didn't expect anything to happen right away, so I accepted a lateral to go to another team in my org because this other team has more promotion potential. Same salary of $61k, but better supervisor and more chances to promote up into project management at some point. I figured, even if I didn't get the senior editor job, I had to move on for my sanity. A week goes by and I get a phone screen and an on-site interview for the senior editor role. The (internal) recruiter asks for my target and I dodge, saying "the total compensation is what's important to me" etc. He tries to pin me to say a number but I won't, so he says "let's just say $80k for now. Does that sound okay?" I'm like sure, great. On Friday, I got the offer and it's $81k, meaning a 32.7% bump in salary. I'm going through background check to get my clearance and my start date is set for mid-October. I expect my clearance will go through pretty fast because it's a really low level and I held a clearance before. There are only two hitches to my story: The team I transferred to is going to be PISSED when I say "actually, sorry, I'm out of here." They're spending a lot of time on me right now for training. But honestly, if my company wanted to keep me, they'd have promoted me or given me a salary bump with the lateral. The other thing is that I'm going from 208 hours of PTO (26 days per year) to 144 hours (18 days per year). I think the salary, commute, etc will make it worth it, but it does suck. I pushed back and asked for 160 hours (20 days) and the recruiter said he couldn't make that happen. I'm still really happy with the salary and can't wait to start the new job! I'm giving the standard two week notice to my new team as soon as my clearance goes through and I get my firm start date.
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Sep 9, 2019 19:39
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Betazoid posted:The team I transferred to is going to be PISSED when I say "actually, sorry, I'm out of here." They're spending a lot of time on me right now for training. But honestly, if my company wanted to keep me, they'd have promoted me or given me a salary bump with the lateral. They'd have to invest this training in literally anyone, and they brought you in because they needed someone. You don't owe them anything, but they definitely need to pay enough money to keep up with the market. And the market just told them they'd been getting a 25% discount, which they should be happy about.
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Sep 9, 2019 21:32
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Also: who cares? Losing you is their problem. They had their chance. gently caress ‘em.
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Sep 9, 2019 21:44
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Eric the Mauve posted:Also: who cares? Losing you is their problem. They had their chance. gently caress ‘em.
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Sep 9, 2019 22:22
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Dik Hz posted:Yup, they can pay market rate for your talent or get hosed. Thread title kthx
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Sep 10, 2019 03:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:Also: who cares? Losing you is their problem. They had their chance. gently caress ‘em. This, so much. If they had done enough, you wouldn’t have been open to an approach.
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Sep 10, 2019 08:49
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I have started negotiations by putting a meeting on my bosses calendar. He already came by and told me he's never been asked to negotiate that way, people usually just come into his office and say they want more money. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
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Sep 10, 2019 10:01
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All the millennials who survived starting their career during the crisis and were told to be grateful to even have a job circa 2009 learned that being a labor mercenary is the only sane response in this capitalist hellscape and now that they have hit their peak performing years they have no qualms about job hopping when an org won't pay them their worth because it's the orgs that should be grateful to have them putting their skillsets to work for their benefit. Get hosed, bosses. Get paid, workers. And if you didn't learn that lesson because you were older/younger/some other reason, learn it now.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:36
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I've seen some pretty hilarious posts on LinkedIn and such from HR, recruiter, and business types that are whining about candidates being "unprofessional" for not being grateful for the opportunity to gobble their balls and having the audacity to not return their calls/emails or ghost them after a poo poo interview/offer - likely because they have better opportunities. Or having the gall to "be disloyal and job hop" to a better job after a year or two rather than "putting in their time" like a good little cog. The total lack of self-awareness that companies have been treating applicants like subhuman garbage and holding back on raises and promotions for current employees for years and now the market forces have turned the result is just delicious. Company loyalty is dead, and it's the companies that killed it with their unfettered greedy capitalism. Always look out for number one and go get what you want. Don't wait around for it because it's probably not coming. Even great companies fall victim to it. Stick around for as long as you keep getting good experience and fairly compensated (which may be a long time, in some cases!) but don't be afraid to look around and move to greener pastures when the time comes.
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Sep 11, 2019 01:19
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Turnquiet posted:All the millennials who survived starting their career during the crisis and were told to be grateful to even have a job circa 2009 learned that being a labor mercenary is the only sane response in this capitalist hellscape and now that they have hit their peak performing years they have no qualms about job hopping when an org won't pay them their worth because it's the orgs that should be grateful to have them putting their skillsets to work for their benefit. Get hosed, bosses. Get paid, workers. What kind of amazes me is the total shift in stigma regarding job hopping. Used to be you were looked at in bad light for changing jobs even every two years. Stability and longevity was an admired trait. Now it seems like people who don’t move are dinosaurs. This is coming as a dinosaur who has had two stints of a year or less over the past 5 or 6 years. And I kind of hope my new current gig lasts a nice long while.
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Sep 11, 2019 02:35
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Guinness posted:The total lack of self-awareness that companies have been treating applicants like subhuman garbage and holding back on raises and promotions for current employees for years and now the market forces have turned the result is just delicious. They're completely aware. It's just an attempt to guilt a portion of the population that may feel guilty for leaving. Hell, it still happens frequently in this thread. It's just more worker manipulation.
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Sep 11, 2019 02:36
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