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Kesper North posted:"War. Huh! What is it good for?" Fred Colon, I think. "Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?" Definitely Nobby Nobbs
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Sep 6, 2019 20:03
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Kesper North posted:"War. Huh! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing." Fred Colon, I think. I'm reading Jingo again, for probably the 3rd time, and I realized that I can't remember a single thing about it. It's like I'm reading it again for the first time. This is both nice and dismaying. Nice because I get to experience a 'new' Pratchett book again, but dismaying because there's probably a reason that it didn't stick out the first two time.
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Sep 7, 2019 13:02
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Jingo is a bit like Reaper Man - great main plot (Vimes), weak secondary plot (Fred/Nobby/Patrician). The bits where Vimes has got the wrong personal disorganiser are amazing.
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Sep 7, 2019 13:31
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Sanford posted:Jingo is a bit like Reaper Man - great main plot (Vimes), weak secondary plot (Fred/Nobby/Patrician). The bits where Vimes has got the wrong personal disorganiser are amazing. And very coldly moving, at least in one spot
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Sep 7, 2019 21:28
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Stroth posted:"Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?" Definitely Nobby Nobbs That was a REALLY GOOD bit of dialogue. Also very Pratchett. Nothing is ever clear and simple.
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Sep 7, 2019 23:16
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Jingo is definitely one of Terry's that I didn't get until later in life. I was too young to have paid attention to any rhetoric about like ...I guess Desert Storm or anything around then until basically pre Afganistan invasion chest thumping and then it was like "ooooooh". Though to be fair I was 10 when Jingo was published. Edit: actually my first exposure to any Desert Storm stuff culturally was Stormin Norman in whichever Johnny book he was in. I guess in Ireland we had bigger fish to fry in 91. But uh again I was only 5ish Shoehead fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Sep 8, 2019 |
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Sep 8, 2019 00:42
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iajanus posted:And very coldly moving, at least in one spot Yes I know what you mean and it’s basically the best page in the book. Things to do today.
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Sep 8, 2019 12:06
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Sanford posted:Yes I know what you mean and it’s basically the best page in the book. Things to do today. gently caress that stirred it up again for me.
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Sep 8, 2019 14:43
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Two things I implore anyone who liked Jingo even slightly to be aware of; the first, at the risk of being slightly up my own arse, is something I did a while ago about what I get out of the extended Fred/Nobby/Patrician sequences, which quite a few people say they can't see the point of:quote:First, we get to see see Nobby and Colon out of their element as the ultimate foreigners (and, in Nobby's case, men) abroad, blundering through a foreign country with typical English (and male) sensitivity, and then growing as people by the end of it ("let's go to the Bunch of Grapes instead...") But the Gulli, Gulli and Beti sequence is about far more than Nobby not doing a belly dance and Fred pretending to be a stupid fat idiot. The other is an absolutely fantastic thing that someone wrote on Usenet back when it were all fields round here, and got a hearty thumbs up from Pterry; it's an analysis of what the hell Vetinari's actually playing at, which can be hard to get and which I certainly missed the first few times through. quote:One of the things that's always troubled me about J is the way Vetinari acts so out of character, dropping the helm of A-M and charging off on what is more than likely to be a wild goose chase (and one which, on the "real" leg of the trousers of time, turns out to be a failure, with A-M invaded). But then this discussion of the war got me wondering if it made any difference to my interpretation of Vetinari's behaviour if I assumed that he knew from the beginning of the book that Klatch was determined to invade. And it turns out it does. vvv I'm going to do a little Usenet mining and see what pops out. vvv Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Sep 8, 2019 |
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Sep 8, 2019 18:06
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Trin Tragula posted:...The other is an absolutely fantastic thing that someone wrote on Usenet back when it were all fields round here, and got a hearty thumbs up from Pterry; it's an analysis of what the hell Vetinari's actually playing at, which can be hard to get and which I certainly missed the first few times through. Thanks for linking that essay, because it really snaps into focus that part of the book which slightly bewildered me the first time. Are there any other intepretations like this for the other books people could rec?
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Sep 8, 2019 18:21
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I just wanted to say reading the Guards series reinvigorated my desire to read like nothing ever has. I maybe read a new book two or three times a year, but this year alone I've read nearly 20 books, most of which are Discworld novels. It was Sam Vimes, honestly. I've never related to a character more in my entire life. I didn't think I could. I've had to kick alcohol, and a very similar line of work where I have to wrestle with the same lowlifes and internal demons. I have the unconditional love and support of a woman who I think by all measurements is far too good for me. I'm having to learn how to give up my desire to chase bad guys for the sake of it, because now that someone cares about me it doesn't seem fair. I don't know how Pratchett did it. I don't know how he captured it all so accurately. Just a few months ago I had to pull a guy off his wife who he was beating and I could feel what Pratchett called "the beast", I had red visions of me kicking that man in the head until he stopped moving. I wanted to hurt him and in the moment I didn't care if it killed him. I didn't do that of course, but I hated myself for feeling that way at all. I thought I was a monster. I still think I might be. Sam Vimes has shown me that even if I am a monster, I can live my life like a good monster. The whole bit with the Summoning Dark? Beating, and turning it into what Vimes called "The Guarding Dark". Sorry for the weird rambling post, just felt like sharing.
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Sep 8, 2019 20:25
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You're not rambling. You're making perfect sense. That struggle to turn the sum of our rage into a worthy guardian? That's in everyone. That's all of us. We are all monsters and we are all wonders. We are the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape. How we face that challenge depends on where fate takes us, and where we put ourselves. Some of us face it more starkly and painfully than others; life is mortally unfair. But what you describe - You're no more of a monster than I am. Or Pratchett, because clearly he understood these things. I learned to see this truth in myself from reading the same books, at an age when I really needed to. I think he gave the right approach to Vimes, too: Welcome the dark, speak to it, let it inform but not control or define you. You define it. And read to your kids. (On time.)
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Sep 8, 2019 22:17
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The amazing thing about Jingo to me is how it seems like such a clear parody/reference to real world events but then you see it came out before the whole “war in iraq” thing happened.
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Sep 10, 2019 09:48
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Iraq wasn't exactly the first ever rodeo for anyone involved.
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Sep 10, 2019 10:56
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tooterfish posted:Iraq wasn't exactly the first ever rodeo for anyone involved. It's like with Sherlock Holmes, almost regardless of what time you set that story in it will always make sense that Watson is an Afghanistan vet.
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Sep 10, 2019 15:11
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Well gently caress me, The Watch finally starts filming this month. Richard Dormer as Vimes, a non-binary person as Cheery Littlebottom and Carcer, which means they're doing Night Watch as a large part of the first season.
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Sep 11, 2019 15:32
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I'm still feeling a little uneasy about the whole thing. Like I'm almost definitely sure it's going to be modern day-set with the occasional troll and golem wandering around.  
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Sep 11, 2019 15:41
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I mean that is basically what Terry was working towards. I'll be happy if it nails the general tone and ideas of Discworld, doesn't even need to stick to the book plots or their order that closely. ... it does still need to be Discworld. Like, it'd be okay and interesting to get a visual interpretation of Discworld that's not as medieval as people think when they hear "fantasy", I'm even fine with some fairly radical reinterpretation, at the very least that would all help to make the setting more palatable to newcomers especially when the cosmology has so little impact on the Watch plots (notable exception: Fifth Elephant), but yeah I am gonna draw a fat red line at it being set in Ankh-Morpork on Discworld as opposed to London With Trolls.
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Sep 11, 2019 15:51
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Bit worried by how young the actres they've picked for Sybil is. She's meant to be a matronly type in (I'm guesing) her 40s. Casting her as a black woman I am 100% behind though, if only because it'll piss off racists. And Discworld as written is pretty overwhwlmingly white (barring Jingo, I can't remember that many non-white ankh morpork based characters in the watch series wt least) Rest of the casting looks pretty decent though tbh
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Sep 11, 2019 16:17
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They’re filming in South Africa, but I feel like I’d be happier if it was Croatia or Prague or something. Wherever they filmed the BBC Musketeers show.
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Sep 11, 2019 16:17
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Camrath posted:Bit worried by how young the actres they've picked for Sybil is. She's meant to be a matronly type in (I'm guesing) her 40s. Casting her as a black woman I am 100% behind though, if only because it'll piss off racists. And Discworld as written is pretty overwhwlmingly white (barring Jingo, I can't remember that many non-white ankh morpork based characters in the watch series wt least) I was a bit worried about how young Sybil is as well, but Angua looks pretty fitting, as does Carrot. And I'm trying to remember as it's been a while since my last reread, did he ever actually say what race people were? I mean, trolls he described as types of rock which would have different colors, but the rest I don't remember him saying anything at all. Maybe I just missed it. During an interview he said who his perfect casting for Vimes was, but that that was his opinion only. You saw the characters as you wanted to see them, he just described the type of person they were and maybe stuff like hair cuts and height. The rest was left to the reader, which worked perfectly I thought.
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Sep 11, 2019 17:17
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There's a bit in Men At Arms where it says "in a world where dwarves and trolls walk the street, your neighbors skin colour isn't that much of a concern" (describing a certain day watch officer who would under those circumstances still aim racial slurs at humans), implying that there's a certain degree of racial heterogeneity in society, and there's a ton of stuff in Jingo like Colon mentioning "our race" and Nobby pointing out that he (Nobby) could conceivably pass for just about any type of human, as well as the whole of Jingo not really working if society as a whole isn't sufficiently homogenous-white enough to be pitched against the Klatchian portion. Plus bits and pieces here and there about Achatean citizens and Rincewind proudly calling himself a racist until he figured out it's not at all about speed competitions. Really the way Discworld is set up with its general analogues to real-world societies you can pretty much assume it's a reasonably mixed society but everyone who isn't explicitly called out as Klatchian, Achatean and so on is probably Morporkian, i.e. predominantly white/British, although of course left open enough that you can easily slot in your own ideas.
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Sep 11, 2019 18:26
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it’s made explicit in one of the witches books, the New Orleans one. at one poit it’s explicitly stated that nanny had never seen a black person before (iirc) although the point of the sequence is that she doesn’t even notice.
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Sep 11, 2019 18:35
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Sep 11, 2019 19:33
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They've cast Carcer, so maybe they're starting out with Night Watch (or other time related shenanigans) which could explain Sybil's age?
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Sep 11, 2019 20:52
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:They've cast Carcer, so maybe they're starting out with Night Watch (or other time related shenanigans) which could explain Sybil's age? That’s the general theory, yeah. Starting out with Night Watch rather than building up to it is weird though.
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Sep 11, 2019 21:30
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:They've cast Carcer, so maybe they're starting out with Night Watch (or other time related shenanigans) which could explain Sybil's age? From the press releases, it looks like they're taking bits from across the Watch books, including Night Watch. E.g.: we've got a newbie Carrot joining a disempowered Watch (Guards! Guards!), which has Angua and Cheery (who joined in Men at Arms), with Angua as Carrot's mentor. That said, there's distinct implications of messing with time as the main plot.
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Sep 11, 2019 21:37
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Changes are probably a good idea. Pratchett's take on people holds up, but a lot of his thoughts on policing have aged badly.
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Sep 11, 2019 21:47
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Rand Brittain posted:Changes are probably a good idea. They were never good, if by that you mean the coppers aren't scum.
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Sep 11, 2019 22:16
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That fella they picked for Carrot is Carrot if ever I saw him.
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Sep 11, 2019 22:25
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Custodes tui omnia nothi
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Sep 11, 2019 22:29
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Always wondered if Carrot should have a beard. The archetype of clean-cut policeman he represents certainly doesn't, but he's a dwarf.
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Sep 12, 2019 05:55
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My Lovely Horse posted:Always wondered if Carrot should have a beard. The archetype of clean-cut policeman he represents certainly doesn't, but he's a dwarf. i refuse to believe that carrot is capable of growing facial hair
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Sep 12, 2019 06:10
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Big Bad Beetleborg posted:They've cast Carcer, so maybe they're starting out with Night Watch (or other time related shenanigans) which could explain Sybil's age? Or they're planning on building Carcer up as a bad guy before going full Night Watch. NW was the first time we met the character, but Vimes knew him all too well.
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Sep 12, 2019 06:25
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Carrot is regularly considered to be a dwarf by other dwarves. He MUST have a beard.
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Sep 12, 2019 06:49
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Carrot’s is a beard of the spirit, which is difficult to capture in an image but becomes obvious as soon as you see him in person 
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Sep 12, 2019 06:53
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mllaneza posted:Or they're planning on building Carcer up as a bad guy before going full Night Watch. NW was the first time we met the character, but Vimes knew him all too well. "Adewunmi is the wounded and wronged Carcer Dun, out to hijack destiny itself, take control of the city and exact a terrible revenge on an unjust reality." Looks like they may be giving him a backstory where he's a watchman gone bad. Not Our Carcer, really - he wouldn't want revenge on an unjust anything, because he wouldn't believe that anything was unjust.
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Sep 12, 2019 08:09
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My Lovely Horse posted:Always wondered if Carrot should have a beard. The archetype of clean-cut policeman he represents certainly doesn't, but he's a dwarf. By that definition he also shouldn't be tall.
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Sep 12, 2019 13:30
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Alhazred posted:By that definition he also shouldn't be tall.
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Sep 12, 2019 13:39
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Jedit posted:"Adewunmi is the wounded and wronged Carcer Dun, out to hijack destiny itself, take control of the city and exact a terrible revenge on an unjust reality." That honestly doesn't sound all that great...
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Sep 12, 2019 13:47
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