|
So has this been posted yet? It's good and seems especially appropriate after reading the last few pages of this thread. Laurie Penny on gaming's #MeToo and the tyranny of male fragility.
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 11:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 22:32 |
|
|
RazzleDazzleHour posted:The stigma around DnD is incredibly well-know and hard to argue against. Literally the point of my post is that it wasn't gatekeeping that was keeping diversity from tabletop, it was the stigma. I know the group I played with would have loved it if a girl wanted to play with us - instead I got bullied so hard I changed schools. I like the fact that more people have gotten into tabletop and DnD and all of the related content that's come with it. And yes, you're right that it's weird to single out women for being perpetrators of the stigma when men were equally responsible for perpetrating the stereotypes of the hobby, but it's a necessary distinction to make when you're inherently talking about the idea of gatekeeping against women specifically, which was the whole point of the original question - why didn't early RPGs catch on with women? What men think of DnD isn't nearly as important to that question, so yeah, of course I'm going to focus on the views of women. The reason early tabletop RPGs didn’t catch on with women as much as they did with men isn’t because women were/are inherently anti-nerd or whatever, it’s because any niche culture that’s made up mostly of men has always been incredibly hostile to accepting women into their midst, whether it’s early rpgs, finance, STEM fields, etc. etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 19:39
|
|
|
The artwork from back when I played didn't help: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 21:05
|
|
|
Boob window chainmail on naked skin. That makes me wince for so many reasons. Ouch.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 21:07
|
|
|
Curse of the Azure Boobs
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 21:12
|
|
|
One of my very favorite Cerebus comics, speaking of creators who went awful, was when Red Sophia whipped off her top and said to Cerebus, "What do you think of THESE?" He replied "I think they'd probably heal if you stopped wearing that bikini."
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 21:26
|
|
|
Very early TSR tried to push D&D as a family friendly boxed product sold on Toys R Us shelves and it survived for a long time until Wizards bought them and it went for a more hardcore angle in the aughts. Now D&D is probably played by a split majority of men and women thanks in large part to indie designers' influence on the market. And I wonder if anyone has done a deep dive on how video games evolved. Up until the NES video games were advertised as the centerpiece of the living room. With the NES it kind of transformed into something the cool boy played in a dark 80s wood panel room. Before video games had a noticeable community people interacted with, what was it that caused an ousting of women from marketing practically overnight?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 21:28
|
|
|
Somebody posted this Polygon article about exactly that. https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed The TL;DR basically being the video game crash of the 80s left Nintendo as the only player still standing and they marketed their consoles mainly as toys for boys and as people moved back into the market they followed suit.
Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Sep 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 23:01
|
|
|
In other news, I'm glad that I missed that free copy of West Of Loathing a buddy was giving away: https://old.reddit.com/r/kol/comments/d0cq9s/allegations_of_misconduct_by_asymmetric_members/
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 23:43
|
|
|
It came out a few pages back, but yeah, really shameful behaviour from Zack, who was a developer I genuinely liked  Kevin... I dunno. I can tell myself I would have done the brave thing if my boss, best friend and landlord had hurt his wife in front of me, but I'm very glad I've never been in that situation where you find out if you're a coward or not.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
Jesus christ, the KOL folks too? This industry is a loving cesspit
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:06
|
|
|
I swear to god, if the Star Control or XCOM creators get outed, I will officially hit the perma- threshold.
StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Sep 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:13
|
|
|
Word choice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:14
|
|
|
Good Soldier Svejk posted:Jesus christ, the KOL folks too? This industry is a loving cesspit If there's a takeaway here I think it's less that the games industry is uniquely bad and more that it's the same amount of bad as pretty much everything else, if that makes sense. It's just that recently there's been enough momentum to start throwing back the curtains that have been concealing this poo poo from public scrutiny in all sorts of fields, whether it's movies, the tech industry, games, media, etc. I totally get the sentiment though, it feels like you can't swing a dead cat without hitting "oh yeah the guy who worked on this goofy game about stick figure cowboys was a rapist." Two weeks before the Alex Holokwa thing broke I was telling friends to go play Night in the Woods, and however you feel about the separation of art and artist it's kind of hard not to feel pretty lovely in the aftermath of something like that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:40
|
|
|
God knows I don't think very highly of it. There is no such thing as an artist who separates themselves from their art. The only thing that makes video games different in that regard is that they're basically all designed by committee, so the influence any one single developer had on the content and messages of their game is by nature more limited than that of a screenwriter or book author.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:44
|
|
|
StratGoatCom posted:I swear to god, if the Star Control or XCOM creators get outed, I will officially hit the perma-
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:God knows I don't think very highly of it. There is no such thing as an artist who separates themselves from their art. The only thing that makes video games different in that regard is that they're basically all designed by committee, so the influence any one single developer had on the content and messages of their game is by nature more limited than that of a screenwriter or book author. Yeah I'm not really a fan of the argument myself but like you said, games are often a product of committee, and additionally in a lot of cases it's not like people know in advance "oh yeah this game is made in part by a lovely person." Like I wouldn't ever tell somebody they have to never play Night in the Woods ever again or something or that all their fond memories of it are irrevocably tainted, or even that they shouldn't buy it now that this info is out there, that's all stuff they'll have to decide for themselves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:51
|
|
|
It's basically what saves the medium for me. There are enough people working on the average game for long enough that at least one of them will, through the sheer law of averages, be more likely to be a dirtbag than any individual author you've read. Movie productions certainly suffer from the same problem and often have their reputations tainted by the actions of a single bad egg to the same degree - but when hundreds of people are involved with the production of a major project, you can't really hold the entire thing responsible for it. That's just not realistic anymore.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 00:56
|
|
|
Charlie Bobson posted:i have a small dick and cant seem to grow any facial hair past my chin and i'm insecure about it. like im pretty sure those words are intended to denigrate dudes rather than transwomen. Great job invalidating trans masculine people even more in your attempt to justify using insults that hurt them though. As far as the "girls were mean to nerd guys" thing. I don't know a single girl/person seen as a girl who wasn't pushed away by guys when they tried to join in on their nerdy hobbies. All while they complained about how no girls wanted to join their groups. They always meant the "cool" girls and the "hot" girls didn't want to play. All while ridiculing the nerd girls who actually wanted to play D&D or Magic or Super Mario.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:00
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:It's basically what saves the medium for me. There are enough people working on the average game for long enough that at least one of them will, through the sheer law of averages, be more likely to be a dirtbag than any individual author you've read. Movie productions certainly suffer from the same problem and often have their reputations tainted by the actions of a single bad egg to the same degree - but when hundreds of people are involved with the production of a major project, you can't really hold the entire thing responsible for it. That's just not realistic anymore. In the case of Night in the Woods, Alec was either the second- or third-most-important person to the game's development (I'm not personally aware how much work Bethany did on the game, only that she helped write it). His music is constantly present in the foreground, and in the background it's his code driving the game. That's going to detract from the experience for a lot of people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:03
|
|
|
Yeah, me neither. That kind of thing really tends to be considered as deserving of attention in direct proportion to how important the scumbag was to the actual work - which, in all honesty, is perfectly justified. And I was speaking generally, not about Night In The Woods specifically. It certainly taints the work, but it does so less in my perception because the rest of the team was also visibly shocked and even cancelled a project so they wouldn't have to work with him anymore. That goes a distance to put them in my good books. I do not think well of guilt by association.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:05
|
|
|
If you want to be morbid about it, Alec isn't exactly going to be benefiting from NITW sales anymore either, which is one of the reasons people avoid buying things abusers were involved in. Maybe some money goes to his family, but from the sounds of it were among his victims, and of course Scott and Bethany were too and they also get their cut. So supporting an abuser isn't a factor anymore for that particular game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:10
|
|
|
I'm surprised it's just been tiny indie devs so far, honestly. I can think of a lot of AA people who are absolute scumbags that i'm sure have lots of this poo poo waiting in the wings.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:16
|
|
|
Roland Jones posted:If you want to be morbid about it, Alec isn't exactly going to be benefiting from NITW sales anymore either, which is one of the reasons people avoid buying things abusers were involved in. Maybe some money goes to his family, but from the sounds of it were among his victims, and of course Scott and Bethany were too and they also get their cut. So supporting an abuser isn't a factor anymore for that particular game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:16
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:I'm surprised it's just been tiny indie devs so far, honestly. I can think of a lot of AA people who are absolute scumbags that i'm sure have lots of this poo poo waiting in the wings. Plus, the household name type guys tend to have their quirks be well-known already. I mean, everyone knows that Hideo Kojima is weird about women and has a toilet fetish.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:26
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:I'm surprised it's just been tiny indie devs so far, honestly. I can think of a lot of AA people who are absolute scumbags that i'm sure have lots of this poo poo waiting in the wings. Jeremy Soule has been accused, and has promptly filed a cease and desist because of course. Which studio was it that there've been multiple gaming-industry articles about what shitholes they are for women?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Jeremy Soule has been accused, and has promptly filed a cease and desist because of course. Which studio was it that there've been multiple gaming-industry articles about what shitholes they are for women? Riot has definitely had some. https://kotaku.com/current-and-former-employees-sue-riot-games-for-gender-1830262786 HMS Beagle fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Sep 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:28
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:I'm surprised it's just been tiny indie devs so far, honestly. I can think of a lot of AA people who are absolute scumbags that i'm sure have lots of this poo poo waiting in the wings. Arsenic Lupin posted:Jeremy Soule has been accused, and has promptly filed a cease and desist because of course. Which studio was it that there've been multiple gaming-industry articles about what shitholes they are for women? Riot Games, the studio that makes League of Legends, is the one you're thinking of in particular, which has had a chronic problem with sexual harassment to the point that it's resulted in lawsuits and walkouts. Konami also has a reputation for being extremely lovely to its employees though I can't recall if there's anything particularly sex-pesty about their actions. Randy Pitchford has assaulted voice actors and embezzled money, and it was rumored that he had a flash drive with some skeezy poo poo on it but I dunno if anything ever came of that so it might legit just be rumors in that particular case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:32
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Randy Pitchford has assaulted voice actors and embezzled money, and it was rumored that he had a flash drive with some skeezy poo poo on it but I dunno if anything ever came of that so it might legit just be rumors in that particular case. He confirmed the USB drive had pornography on it, but claims it was "barely legal" (which is pretty skeezy for its own reasons), not children.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:44
|
|
|
"Pretty skeezy" and "literally a child molester" are far enough apart from each other that they shouldn't even be implied to be equivalent, though. Just saying.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:47
|
|
|
Less Fat Luke posted:The artwork from back when I played didn't help: Discussions of the Tome of Magic led to me writing up Nolzur's Marvelous Glue Pot. Azure Bonds... oh, boy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:48
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:"Pretty skeezy" and "literally a child molester" are far enough apart from each other that they shouldn't even be implied to be equivalent, though. Just saying. Oh, for sure. But the pornography industry has a ton of issues, especially in the "barely legal" category, so going "I, the over 40 year old man, wasn't looking at children. I was looking at people that were just barely legally adults." is....still preeeeetty gross.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:51
|
|
|
Edit: Don’t forget that, when asked, he didn’t deny the skeezy barely legal porn on the drive, rather he said he had it because it was porn wizardry.Elephant Parade posted:The knowledge that the game's music was composed by an abuser will still affect the people who listen to it, which is likely going to negatively impact their experience with Night in the Woods. It’s true. I’ve found myself unable to enjoy Morrowind anymore because of the bad taste the Jeremy Soule situation has left on his music, and I’ve played that game almost yearly since Highschool. In the case of NitW, I haven’t played it yet, but knowing what I do, I think I would be hard pressed not to have the abuse on my mind were I to play it. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Sep 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 01:51
|
|
|
al-azad posted:And I wonder if anyone has done a deep dive on how video games evolved. Many people have. quote:Up until the NES video games were advertised as the centerpiece of the living room. With the NES it kind of transformed into something the cool boy played in a dark 80s wood panel room. Before video games had a noticeable community people interacted with, what was it that caused an ousting of women from marketing practically overnight? The home video game—really, Atari—crash of 1983 made it unattractive for 1985 Nintendo to market FamiCom in the United States the same way they did in Japan, where it was sold as the centerpiece of the living room (“Family Computer”). When they decided to sell it in the US they called it an “entertainment system,” included a number of accessories like the robot, and marketed it as a toy. And while it doesn’t have to be, toy marketing in the US is heavily gendered. That’s basically it. It was a hit, so others followed their lead when entering the US market and started on the expected marketing/advertising one-upmanship.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 02:06
|
|
|
AngryRobotsInc posted:Oh, for sure.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 02:09
|
|
|
I'm just going to crow a little about how badly Vic got owned in court and how all the morons stanning for him turned out to completely full of poo poo. Including, somehow, a goon on the first page of this thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 03:08
|
|
|
Also Gone Home was good, the more recent generation of walking sims like that, Edith Finch, Ethan Carter, Soma, Tacoma, were far more enjoyable than the earlier generation of such games like Dear Esther. I'm pretty sure Dear Esther didn't have an insane backlash against it though, back then gamers were trying to prove that the medium could match against Ebert's assertion that games weren't art.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 03:17
|
|
|
If Dear Esther had had a female narrator I bet it would have. I do remember a bit of ‘ not a game’ scorn. It’s one of my favourite games
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 03:22
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:If there's a takeaway here I think it's less that the games industry is uniquely bad and more that it's the same amount of bad as pretty much everything else, if that makes sense. I always want to point out that there's plenty of hotel managers and non profit directors etc without enough name recognition to get named on social media and anything to be done about it, especially if the people who name them have reasons to fear recourse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 03:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 22:32 |
|
|
dear esther started as a half life 2 mod way before walking sims were even a thing, it slipped under the radar partly because it was low-profile to begin with and partly because no one really knew what to make of it i fell in love with it at first sight
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 03:58
|
|
