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Guinness posted:The total lack of self-awareness that companies have been treating applicants like subhuman garbage and holding back on raises and promotions for current employees for years and now the market forces have turned the result is just delicious.
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Sep 11, 2019 04:08
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Completely agree. It is not that middle management is not aware or does not care. So often the hands are just tied.
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Sep 11, 2019 04:11
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I figured I'd post about my recent job hunting and negotiation experience since it had good outcomes! I was originally working in a company in the midwest making $52k. I was unhappy and was convinced it was the worst company I'd ever work at. I interviewed at a small company for a high level position supervisor position. They decided to NOT offer me the supervisor position but I still took a position because it was a cool city and I would make more. Overall I was paid $55k, due to low state taxes and whatnot it was actually a pretty good paycheck. I chose not to negotiate salary because it was decent, the city was cool, and I got them to cover relo costs (4k, a number I sorely regret) My first week I was there 2 people quit because I was slotted to become the supervisor and they felt passed over. I quickly learned that their MO was to offer someone a lower position than what they interviewed for then "promote" them later, with no pay increase (I wanted 65k+ for the supervisor title). I was perfectly fine with this because I wanted the title because it would jump start my career by 5 years. I had however ran afoul of the owners by demanding that we purchase equipment necessary to do our job so this quickly soured them on the promotion route. I was there for less than 10 months before I started interviewing again because of the owners complete lack of integrity in all regards. FYI this place would lowball women and cut off negotiations instantly if countered. I interviewed for a position in Boulder, CO with a higher title. Initially I was extremely worried about the cost of living and the average wage. The average for my position at the higher title was $75k. I determined my minimum to be 72k because that would pay for cost of living plus a decent bit more. Interview went great, I was offered a job less than a week later. When the HR called me to tell me. I was ecstatic about the offer. They offered me $88k outright. They offered no relo, but I said that was vital. They came up to 5k pretax. I said that the average cost of moving is $10k post tax (14k pretax) and we settled on 10k pretax pretty quickly. This turned out to be exactly adequate for my circumstances. I took the job without further negotiations. I think I did right here, my colleague with 20 yrs of experience vs my 5 yrs only got them to give him 91k. We are at the same level, hired at exactly the same time. I did not negotiate salary twice, a possible mortal sin in this thread. I however did get a 70% raise in less than 12 months. I also never gave them my numbers. If I had, I'd be making 16k less! Overall my lessons learned: change jobs JUST enough to not be classified as a job hopper. Never give numbers or ranges, and always negotiate something, salary or benefits. I also learned, it's sucks to leave a bad job and find out that your new job is WAY worse. The grass may not be greener on the other side! Please excuse any grammar or spelling mistakes as this was done from Boulder on a phone! TheSpartacus fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Sep 11, 2019 |
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Sep 11, 2019 14:04
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TheSpartacus posted:
Congrats! But for the love of god, if you are forced to give a number do not give your minimum!
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Sep 11, 2019 14:08
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bamhand posted:Congrats! But for the love of god, if you are forced to give a number do not give your minimum! Absolutely true. I would never and have never gave my minimum out. It's always a number I've discussed with my wife that I know before I even apply to jobs. I always just say I want to be paid appropriately for my skillset.
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Sep 11, 2019 14:16
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What city were you in before? Midwest City to Denver area is a huge COL adjustment. I made the move in 2011 and went from 58 -> 75 and would say it was generally an even swap. Rents and housing have gone crazy since then. You should be good on 88k be things can get pretty pricey, especially in Boulder. Congrats on the new job.
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Sep 11, 2019 14:41
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Ultimate Mango posted:What kind of amazes me is the total shift in stigma regarding job hopping. Used to be you were looked at in bad light for changing jobs even every two years. Stability and longevity was an admired trait. Now it seems like people who don’t move are dinosaurs. Yeah, the stigma definitely hasn't changed from the employer side. From the employee side there is less concern about it because it happens more often, but it is still definitely something that employers look at when considering candidates. Finding good employees is expensive, and it sucks to waste the time effort and money to repeat months later. That's why you have to pay employees you want to keep.
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Sep 11, 2019 14:44
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spwrozek posted:What city were you in before? Midwest City to Denver area is a huge COL adjustment. I made the move in 2011 and went from 58 -> 75 and would say it was generally an even swap. Rents and housing have gone crazy since then. You should be good on 88k be things can get pretty pricey, especially in Boulder. Congrats on the new job. Springfield Il. I live 20 miles from boulder, so I dont get hit with the ridiculous COL. My wife makes 30% more too so its definitely not been a like for like swap for us. We are actually financially healthy for the first time!
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Sep 11, 2019 14:53
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Zauper posted:Yeah, the stigma definitely hasn't changed from the employer side. From the employee side there is less concern about it because it happens more often, but it is still definitely something that employers look at when considering candidates. A recruiter once (I assume accidentally) sent me the internal requirements for a job. One of those spam low quality email blasts. It was illuminating: It was a 6 month contract position and they required applicants to have no less than 2 years year average tenure in their previous 5 jobs. So, you don't qualify for that position... If you take that position. This is also in tech where it's hard enough to find good people. I can only assume the tenure thing was tacked on by some clueless HR manager or something.
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Sep 11, 2019 16:37
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TheSpartacus posted:Springfield Il. I live 20 miles from boulder, so I dont get hit with the ridiculous COL. My wife makes 30% more too so its definitely not been a like for like swap for us. We are actually financially healthy for the first time! Awesome. I want sure if you were in process or not. Congrats to you both and welcome to the neighborhood.
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Sep 11, 2019 18:35
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Inept posted:They're completely aware. It's just an attempt to guilt a portion of the population that may feel guilty for leaving. Hell, it still happens frequently in this thread. It's just more worker manipulation. I'm interested in where you think this happens in this thread. I've seen people say that you have to be careful about job hopping perception wise, but I don't think I've ever seen a "you should feel guilty for getting a better arrangement for renting your labor"
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Sep 11, 2019 21:01
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I thought he meant people in this thread still regularly express feeling guilty/uncomfortable/hesitant about jumping to a new employer that actually wants to pay them market rate, but maybe I read it wrong. We do occasionally see someone post "should I stay at my present employer that's made vague references to maybe looking into giving me a raise at some indeterminate future time or should I take this other job that pays 20% more?" and it quickly becomes apparent the OP decided to stay before he ever made the post. Most people are terrified of the unknown, executives ruthlessly exploit them for it, .mp4 at 11 Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Sep 11, 2019 |
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Sep 11, 2019 21:03
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Eric the Mauve posted:I thought he meant people in this thread still express feeling guilty/uncomfortable/hesitant about jumping to a new employer that actually wants to pay them market rate, but maybe I read it wrong. oh. yeah, cultural indoctrination is a hell of a drug
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Sep 11, 2019 21:04
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I wish there were more options for my job prospects in my area but drat I don’t wanna move so I stay while knowing I get paid less. Trade off I suppose. I do scan the industry info for companies that would look good though. Gotta keep sharp.
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Sep 11, 2019 21:17
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What is this threads view on employer contribution to benefits (or employee’s cost) as a part of total comp? My last 3 jobs were all with small ish companies, and coming to a larger firm the difference is staggering. I think new employer is putting in at least $20k per year more into my benefits staggering. Both better benefits and significantly less employee contribution. Also, are you ‘required’ to list all previous positions when applying for employment? I have done some consulting to fill gaps between jobs, but I wouldn’t list that in my history. I also wouldn’t list anything I did for a few months and bailed. The gaps are easier to explain than the short stints with other odd jobs...
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Sep 12, 2019 00:15
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It's why in this thread we always say compare total compensation, not just base salary. It's also a good "weasel word" when getting pressured for target numbers. A lot of benefits and extra comp structures are worth more than their nominal value in salary.
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Sep 12, 2019 00:41
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Xguard86 posted:A recruiter once (I assume accidentally) sent me the internal requirements for a job. One of those spam low quality email blasts. It was illuminating: That's crazy and dumb. But we will discuss whether we think an employee is a rapid flight risk when hiring. Lots of short tenure and frankly you're not worth the cost to train. I much prefer aggressively giving raises and promoting folks that do a great job to keep them over having to train new people.
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Sep 12, 2019 01:11
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Ultimate Mango posted:What is this threads view on employer contribution to benefits (or employee’s cost) as a part of total comp? It is very important to consider. My company does a yearly document for us that lists all our comp. So salary, PTO, bonus, health Care, etc. Above my car salary and PTO the company puts in about $50k. Cool to see how it is changed as well in the last 8 years.
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Sep 12, 2019 02:11
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What all do I need to consider if I switch over to contract work? 31 years old in PA for health insurance, single. A recruiter hit me up with a one year contract and the hourly rate is.... wow. Also it’s a year long. My long term goal has been to eventually contract on my own and eventually start my own consulting firm. Was planning on waiting a few more years until I really jumped in but if it falls into my lap like this then why not?
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Sep 12, 2019 02:28
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Rex-Goliath posted:What all do I need to consider if I switch over to contract work? 31 years old in PA for health insurance, single. A recruiter hit me up with a one year contract and the hourly rate is.... wow. Also it’s a year long. You will have to do your own taxes and pay your own health insurance costs, to start. Go from there and then factor in how much work it is to sell to clients for consulting and see if it's worth it
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Sep 12, 2019 03:31
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Rex-Goliath posted:What all do I need to consider if I switch over to contract work? 31 years old in PA for health insurance, single. A recruiter hit me up with a one year contract and the hourly rate is.... wow. Also it’s a year long. Generally you will want to be a minimum of 3x your hourly pay as an employee. Without knowing anything else about your situation.
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Sep 12, 2019 04:07
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spwrozek posted:It is very important to consider. My company does a yearly document for us that lists all our comp. So salary, PTO, bonus, health Care, etc. Above my car salary and PTO the company puts in about $50k. Cool to see how it is changed as well in the last 8 years. That’s really cool. In my two plus decades in the workforce I don’t think any employer of mine has broken out all of everything like that. And I’ve worked at places with 3,000 to over 150,000 employees (and also less than ten). Definitely the smaller places or ones who use something like Trinet have made the employees pay more. The best was a large German company who even gave US employees European style benefits and coverage. My new gig is a close second and dang it’s nice.
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Sep 12, 2019 04:49
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Yeah, I've always wondered what a state or federal benefits package is worth in terms of dollars, and what the break-point is to move from private to public. I know the calculations differ for everyone individually and for each region, but I'm imagining ranking these options: 1) $50/hour for a 1-year contract as a consultant 2) 70k salary in a corporation, average health insurance/benefits/401k with tiny match 3) 50k salary working for the gov, which includes full health insurance and defined compensation/pension plan (after a full career or whatever) Seems pretty even to me. I suppose it depends on where you are in your life and how much you want to commit to a place/job. The contract rate is pretty nice, and it would be cool to move to the city.... but no, I think I'll buy a house on a cul-de-sac and work for the city planning department until I die. Unless my brother-in-law at WidgetCorp can put in a good word to the hiring manager...
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Sep 12, 2019 05:53
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What’s the best way to value stock grants from a startup? I had thought everyone moved to RSU’s for the deferred tax liability, but here we are. I mostly understand how to value the scratchers in a vacuum (pretend they’re on fire). But that treatment models the tax liability as a total loss. Not sure if that’s fair.
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Sep 12, 2019 08:35
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Betazoid posted:The team I transferred to is going to be PISSED It's not like a DIB employer couldn't have paid you market rate. Their fault.
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Sep 12, 2019 11:04
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Eric the Mauve posted:Most people are terrified of the unknown, executives ruthlessly exploit them for it, .mp4 at 11 Flip side of the coin, I recently got one hell of a good promotion threatening to leave with multiple offers in hand; if you have weird skills and your bosses don't know who else they'd get certain answers from, you can exploit their fear.
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Sep 12, 2019 11:11
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leper khan posted:What’s the best way to value stock grants from a startup? I had thought everyone moved to RSU’s for the deferred tax liability, but here we are. Options and RSUs can be (often should be) the same from a tax liability standpoint. Fundamentally, the issue is that an option has a strike price, below which it isn't worth exercising (so the option has no value). The RSU either has an upfront liability attached to it (need to pay taxes on it when you receive it) or if it has a performance measure of only exercising when the company goes public or is acquired, well, then you pay full income tax on the RSU and sell it. So in this case, RSU has no upfront liability, and you pay income tax on exercise. With options, you have two choices -- you can choose not to exercise the option until the liquidity event (in which case you pay the exercise price + full income tax on the gains if you sell the stock) or you can choose to exercise earlier (in which case you pay the exercise price up front) and get cap gains treatment on the liquidity event. For most startups, the exercise price is going to be low. The 409A assessment factors in the illiquidity of the stock in the pricing of the options. I joined the company I'm at right after a round that valued the stock at say $1 per share. My options were priced, after the 409A, at $0.1. So theoretically they are already in the money, before anything happens. I'm not exercising them -- there are good reasons not to want to pump money into your employer -- but for me, that cost is not really a big loss. The big advantage RSUs have is that they are always 'in the money' -- if the value of my employer went down to $0.05, then I can't exercise my shares and make a profit, but someone with an RSU walks out with 5 cents per share worth of value. The disadvantage is the inflexible tax treatment. If I know we're looking to get acquired, I can exercise now and get preferential tax treatment that more than makes up for the cost of the exercise at acquisition, while with an RSU you're always paying income tax rates. If your RSUs vest continuously rather than on a liquidity event, then you do have tax liability before you can sell, and you need to factor that in -- functionally the equivalent of choosing to exercise the options.
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Sep 12, 2019 12:38
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Potato Salad posted:Flip side of the coin, I recently got one hell of a good promotion threatening to leave with multiple offers in hand; if you have weird skills and your bosses don't know who else they'd get certain answers from, you can exploit their fear. Spoilers - you should still leave. Now you have a better title and pay to negotiate with. A big promotion likely means you went from way underpaid to just regular underpaid. I'd at least havea crack at another interview.
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Sep 12, 2019 13:06
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Also having just demonstrated yourself to be both difficultly replaceable and a flight risk, you are now a risk to the company. If you aren't still interviewing you're a fool. When your skills are replicated internally you're now replaceable. If you aren't still cheaper than your internal replica, you're hosed.
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Sep 12, 2019 13:44
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Also having just demonstrated yourself to be both difficultly replaceable and a flight risk, you are now a risk to the company.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:39
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Asimov posted:Yeah, I've always wondered what a state or federal benefits package is worth in terms of dollars, and what the break-point is to move from private to public. I know the calculations differ for everyone individually and for each region, but I'm imagining ranking these options: The contract job in question is a terrible option in fact
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Sep 12, 2019 14:40
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Yeah ~$100K a year as a contractor is way worse than $70K a year as a FTE. It's at best marginal compared to $50K+excellent benefits as a FTE.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:42
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^Unless you're talking about being on a W2 through a staffing agency as a "contractor". The benefits aren't as good as they are for FTEs but the pay is the same since they handle all that extra tax poo poo. (I know you're talking about contractors on 1099, but some people don't seem to realize there's a difference between the two).
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Sep 12, 2019 16:35
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Bit of a unique situation here, but I’m looking for some goon advice. I’ve been working for a multinational corporation for 5 years now. I’d joined from a top MBA program and was brought on as part of a global executive fast track program which has seen me work across 3 countries in 3 different functions in that time. Salary is very competitive, albeit structured a bit differently: it’s net net, so they take care of taxes and I pocket the same amount regardless of the country / tax structure I work in. On top of that, housing has been covered - a huge benefit. I’m reaching the end of the rotational part of this program and my host country wants to transition me into an FTE with them (same role - this is fairly normal). However, the offer they have made feels very low all things considered. The initial offer puts my base salary about 5% lower than my current salary due to the way exchange rates have fluctuated on the last 18 months. It kills the housing allowance perk, and has a week less vacation to comply with local policy. In my eyes that’s unacceptable - while I expected to give up the housing allowance, I was hoping for some kind of salary bump to compensate. Definitely not less, even if the proposed salary is in line with the band level I’m at. I also think in calculating a proposed salary they weren’t aware of the net net salary piece - it was offered to me as a “substantial salary increase” (it isn’t when compared gross to gross). They’ve invested significant money and resources in my development over the last few years, and I’ve made personal sacrifices in return. Results and performance reviews have been strong. I feel like I have some leverage here, but wanted some advice on how to proceed and hear if anyone had been through a similar situation. Obviously I will negotiate and explore outside options, but what happens if we can’t reach an agreement? Is refusing an internal offer considered the same as quitting, or would severance be required? How would you position the request - asking for a higher base or for example requesting a housing allowance extension? I’m likely to move roles in April of next year - tbd if laterally but I have been approached about another internal promotion. All help much appreciated.
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Sep 12, 2019 17:49
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Cart posted:Bit of a unique situation here, but I’m looking for some goon advice. Kidding aside, what's your BATNA? How are other people in the rotational program treated?
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Sep 12, 2019 18:33
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m0therfux0r posted:^Unless you're talking about being on a W2 through a staffing agency as a "contractor". The benefits aren't as good as they are for FTEs but the pay is the same since they handle all that extra tax poo poo. I used to work as a contractor/consultant through a firm, so I was a W2 employee but working in a billable hours model. Our comp and benefits were better than most of our clients (big corporations) offered their FTEs. The contracting world is big and varied so it's hard to give one size fits all advice. But ya, big big difference between freelance/1099 contracting and full-time agency/consultancy contracting. $50/hr 1099 contracting is pretty rough. It might sound like a lot but there are so many hidden costs. There's a reason for the general rule of thumb of 3x W2 to 1099, especially as freelance. A "guaranteed" long term contract might be okay closer to 2x but mehhh.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:40
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Dik Hz posted:How good can your top MBA program be if you're asking goons on the internet how to negotiate? Haha, negotiating new jobs has never been an issue! Essentially re-negotiating the position I’m already in is a new one though... Working on the BATNA - I expect its go back on the job hunt, which I’ll be doing regardless in case things go south.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:52
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You didn't answer his other very pertinent question: how does this compare to the offers other people in the same program end up receiving? Are they just lowballing you or is this SOP? It sounds like your answer to "What's your BATNA?" is "I don't know" and your answer to "How does your offer compare to the offers others in similar positions to yours get?" is "I don't know." That's not a good place to be. If you have, like, a week to decide between this offer and unemployment then you have little choice but to take it (after trying to negotiate, but let's face it they're going to say the offer is firm and you're going to fold) and then job hunt. Unless you are firmly convinced they are lowballing you and you can quickly find a similar role with better compensation.
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Sep 12, 2019 19:35
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I'm back - have an in person interview with a company where I applied to and had a phone interview for the job at a Level III, but when they followed it up with the email for the in-person they put it as a Level I. For reference they had identical openings at Levels I, II, and III, just with different years of experience. The bullshit never stops... E: In rereading my original long post I realized I'm being way too passive and letting this slide - my gut tells me to email HR and just ask why the level was dropped directly. Crazyweasel fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 20:12
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"I am only interested in the Level III position. Please confirm that this is still the position you are interviewing me for. If not, I am not interested and wish you best of luck in the future." Don't let anyone bait-and-switch you. Ever. And don't ask why. Just tell them, diplomatically if you must, to gently caress off.
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Sep 12, 2019 20:18
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