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Cloud is also still one of the most fleshed out and interesting FF protagonists. FF7 in general has really strong character writing, even outside of the main cast. It’s a very well done game.
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Sep 14, 2019 12:45
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"I'm going to see my mother." (happily skips out of the room) The orphanage twist in FF8 is silly and, after thinking about it, doesn't even really change anything, but having just played this part last night I think the next segment might actually be more ridiculous. So you go into battle with Galbadia Garden, with Squall taking the mic and invariably prioritising protecting the hot dogs, as the remaster gets you ready for action by playing the midi version of the soundtrack for some reason (lol). Rinoa, the silly goose, ends up being a literal cliffhanger off the side of the Garden. Squall is quite clearly concerned about her, but he rightly points out that he's responsible for everyone and everything within the Garden, including the lives of numerous young children. Nonetheless your squad chews you out for this, because Rinoa is "one of them" (as opposed to all the other Garden students and staff?); Irvine in particular says he doesn't care how you feel, you should be out rescuing Rinoa. Squall, apparently the only competent and reasonable person left in the entire world, asks one of his squad to help Rinoa. "Leave it to me!" they say, with gusto. Five minutes later they come back to you saying "Welp, couldn't do anything, soz." Rinoa is only saved when Squall comes by on a handy jetpack holding a cord, Rinoa having apparently held on to the side of the cliff for about fifteen minutes. We take the time to have a random romantic interlude before starting the disc's final dungeon. After fighting Edea for a second time, Rinoa mysteriously falls unconscious. Squall picks now of all moments to become completely infatuated with her. You go to Edea's house to visit the now-rehabbed sorceress, and to have the plot for the remaining half of the game explained to you. This whole time Squall is thinking of Rinoa, visibly lost in his own little world, but your party members then get on your back for caring TOO MUCH about Rinoa. "We care about Rinoa too, you know!" one of them says. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE WANT FROM ME. On the upside, Cid then pipes in with a poorly timed "Did Rinoa die???", like he's a twelve year-old on Reddit. Squall responds with a hilariously emphatic "NO!". I took longer than I should have getting to this point because I was battling the random and plus rules to get the only rare cards I needed from Trabia and Centra. Then I got greedy and tried to grind a certain enemy in the fourth Laguna sequence for 300 flares and meteors, only to keep dying. I'll make do with the meteors, surely I can get the flares later and still break the game???
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Sep 14, 2019 12:54
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You know, it surprises me that in 8 where levels really make a difference, there is no GF ability that makes it so you don’t gain exp.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:26
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There's the Encounter-None ability from Diablos, and boss fights don't give any XP, but yeah no clear-cut "EXP-None" ability is... Odd.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:32
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Petrified/carded enemies don't give exp so I guess you could junction break to status attack or something if you really cared about that stuff
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Sep 14, 2019 13:35
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Hedgehog Pie posted:The orphanage twist in FF8 is silly and, after thinking about it, doesn't even really change anything, but having just played this part last night I think the next segment might actually be more ridiculous. Squall is right to try and isolate himself from these morons.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:35
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There's already two ways around that, anyway. So long as you don't do any damage (which is how exp is determined, or you get exp if you do any damage at all before removing the enemies, something like that) Card and Break give you no exp at all, even if they count as enemy death. I think Card might negate it entirely, and Break needs to be done with no damage at all, but I might be mistaken about that. ETA: Beaten. Card is the go to No Experience, as it only doesn't work on human enemies. And by the time you run into unavoidable human enemies who aren't bosses, you should have Break.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:37
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Besides card and break you can also get a GF active ability that screws with monsters level to get the different loot tables and draw tables if you are low level and want high or are high level and want low.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:38
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Yeah but a exp none would be great for at least keeping Squall from getting to over leveled. In my current run he is about lv 50 and then the next highest is lv 30. Yes I know I can KO him to keep him from earning exp but then that is also my current primary damage dealer out of the fight.
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Sep 14, 2019 13:54
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mateo360 posted:Yeah but a exp none would be great for at least keeping Squall from getting to over leveled. In my current run he is about lv 50 and then the next highest is lv 30. Yes I know I can KO him to keep him from earning exp but then that is also my current primary damage dealer out of the fight. solution: get zell to critical health, give him str-j, destroy everything
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Sep 14, 2019 13:59
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Mega64 posted:Squall is right to try and isolate himself from these morons. As a kid I found squall to be abrasive and unlikable As an adult who has to deal with idiot coworkers 50 hours a week, the more I read about ff8 the more I think squall might be the most relatable ff character in the series
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Sep 14, 2019 14:07
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Yeah I never really got the Squall hate. He seemed the most logical to me, if insecure. Half-way through the game he just becomes an idiot like everybody else. CHARACTER GROWTH
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Sep 14, 2019 14:13
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Squall is a 17 year old kid who has been raised as a child soldier, and is responding to abandonment trauma by putting up a wall around himself, and trying to drive people away. Can't be hurt by people leaving you, if they never get close to begin with. He makes sense from that perspective. A lot of hate for characters like Squall, and Tidus, seem to forget they're teenagers. Teenagers in hosed up situations, and who have led kind of hosed up lives.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:16
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Characters that aren't confident or sure of themselves is a big turn-off in media no matter the circumstances, for a majority of people. To them, games is purely escapism and seeing not a bad rear end is taking away from that.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:26
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At least Squall grows and develops throughout FF8. Does anyone else really do so in that game besides Seifer and maybe Rinoa?
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Sep 14, 2019 14:34
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Mega64 posted:At least Squall grows and develops throughout FF8. Does anyone else really do so in that game besides Seifer and maybe Rinoa? squall dies offscreen and is replaced with his identical twin who has a completely different personality, it's not really organic character growth
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Sep 14, 2019 14:37
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cock hero flux posted:squall dies offscreen and is replaced with his identical twin who has a completely different personality, it's not really organic character growth Ah yes, Tales of Abyss
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Sep 14, 2019 14:38
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cock hero flux posted:squall dies offscreen and is replaced with his identical twin who has a completely different personality, it's not really organic character growth Really, does any FF have organic character growth, though? All the stories are pretty basic and/or dumb in a lot of ways. Including the characters sometimes. VIII/Squall isn't exactly unique there.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:39
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I would count Vivi but he's not organic.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:40
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I think Tidus in particular is affected by an element of cultural dissonance. Western players are probably expecting his parental neglect to be presented in much darker and more explicit terms, whilst, from what I've read, it's much easier to see Jecht as a complete rear end in a top hat from a Japanese perspective, given their different takes on family values. I can see non-Japanese players being a little bit disappointed that they didn't go "far enough" with it as it were. Of course, the voice acting probably doesn't do him any favours outside of Japan either. I've read that big article about FFX's voice acting and I appreciate that they tried hard under difficult circumstances, but he does nonetheless come across as a bit irritating at times.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:44
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The protagonist with the most organic growth is Luso.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:46
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i thought steiner had pretty good development my ffcc self insert also experienced prominent growth, in their muscles
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Sep 14, 2019 14:50
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Really, does any FF have organic character growth, though? yeah, a lot of them have character growth. it's not exactly super deep or nuanced or even well-executed, but there is character growth in the other games. squall is different in that they decided what they wanted him to be like at the start of the game and at the end of the game, but never actually decided how he should get there. He never displayed any intermediate states. there's just a point where squall 1 is abruptly replaced with squall 2. like if you want to look at an example of hamfisted character growth in FF I feel like the best example is Wakka Learns Why Racism Is Bad, where even if it's not well done you can very clearly mark out Wakka's character growth. you can go "this is peak racism where the al bhed keep trying to kidnap yuna, then this is where he has his faith shaken, and this is where he sees Home blow up and he feels bad about it but is still pretty loving racist about the whole thing, here's where he finds out Yuna's half-Al bhed, etc. etc.", and you could probably edit a Racismometer over all of his scenes and watch it gradually decrease. that's character growth at the level you expect out of FF. squall doesn't have that, he just hotswaps personalities when the game decides he probably should have grown by now.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:51
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i don't like tidus because he's a soccer player and all the soccer players at my high school were tremendous douchebags
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Sep 14, 2019 14:52
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I think Tidus in particular is affected by an element of cultural dissonance. Western players are probably expecting his parental neglect to be presented in much darker and more explicit terms, whilst, from what I've read, it's much easier to see Jecht as a complete rear end in a top hat from a Japanese perspective, given their different takes on family values. I can see non-Japanese players being a little bit disappointed that they didn't go "far enough" with it as it were. I think this is probably my favorite thing about X's voice acting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIh6sXRM_yQ Especially since he spells it out in the end for people who still don't get it.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:57
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I think Tidus in particular is affected by an element of cultural dissonance. Western players are probably expecting his parental neglect to be presented in much darker and more explicit terms, whilst, from what I've read, it's much easier to see Jecht as a complete rear end in a top hat from a Japanese perspective, given their different takes on family values. I can see non-Japanese players being a little bit disappointed that they didn't go "far enough" with it as it were. tidus is actually a very realistically written character when you consider that he was the son of a very famous and wealthy person in a modern society, had neglectful but not quite abusive parents, and then became a famous professional athlete who was showered with endless praise and attention but always with the caveat of "but not quite as good as your dad, though". the fact that he comes out of it as selfish, entitled, emotionally immature and with a huge superiority complex about his dad is exactly what you would expect. the main problem is that people hate playing as him because he is a huge prick, and while he does have character growth where he gradually stops being a huge prick it does take the ENTIRE GAME to get there, and even then he's still a bit of a douche
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Sep 14, 2019 14:57
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these problems were mostly likely exacerbated by the fact that we were, what, 10-15 years old when we first saw the characters i remember that videogamerecaps site from the heyday of the internet where renaming Tidus "Tightass" was a genuine knee-slapper
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Sep 14, 2019 15:03
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i dont like tidus because his pants are too stupid even for mecock hero flux posted:while he does have character growth where he gradually stops being a huge prick it does take the ENTIRE GAME to get there, and even then he's still a bit of a douche i know it's not what they mean to convey but "i hate you dad" is... well it's not the best line to preface your climactic final battle with but that did give us the eternal exchange  i hate you dad!!! i know
Fur20 fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 14, 2019 15:04
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Tidus is good. I don't think he's that much of a prick though. Like he can be annoying and dumb and a little entitled but he's an alright guy, he thinks of others and tries to help people.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:04
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Oxxidation posted:these problems were mostly likely exacerbated by the fact that we were, what, 10-15 years old when we first saw the characters Meg Ryan
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Sep 14, 2019 15:05
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Tidus is good. I don't think he's that much of a prick though. Like he can be annoying and dumb and a little entitled but he's an alright guy, he thinks of others and tries to help people. Right, he's an entitled dickhead at times, but one of his first actions in Besaid is pretty much going "gently caress your rules, someone might be in trouble and we need to help them!" when everyone else is just sitting around wringing their hands.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:07
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The White Dragon posted:i dont like tidus because his pants are too stupid even for me i like that jecht also has an entire game of character growth but tidus doesn't realize it til basically that talk
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Sep 14, 2019 15:15
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Still sad we'll never get the adventures of jecht braska and auron
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Sep 14, 2019 15:19
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My teen self: "Wow Jecht is an rear end in a top hat" My 30 year old self: when my 4 year old throws a tantrum saying "you are stupid daddy"
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Sep 14, 2019 15:22
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Right, he's an entitled dickhead at times, but one of his first actions in Besaid is pretty much going "gently caress your rules, someone might be in trouble and we need to help them!" when everyone else is just sitting around wringing their hands. yeah but you have to look at what that actually means. Tidus knows literally nothing about the cloister of trials other than he's not allowed to go in there. He knows very little about Spira, but he is aware that it's largely ruled by a theocracy that takes these things Very Seriously. He knows that the summoner has bodyguards with them, and he knows that they've been down there long enough that Wakka's a little worried about them. Tidus, a guy who has been on this planet for approximately 8 hours at this point and spent most of them napping, and whose skills mostly consist of "kicking a ball" and "hitting on girls", and who first picked up a sword yesterday and proceeded to instantly fall down, and has absolutely no idea what is happening, immediately decides that he knows more about this situation than anyone else, and that only he can fix it, and gently caress your rules, gently caress god, I'm going in. These are the actions of an incredibly arrogant, incredibly stupid man. As it turns out, him committing superblasphemy was completely unwarranted, everything was fine, the cloister of trials is a largely harmless puzzle room. He gets forgiven because what he did was so unbelievably stupid that when he mutters something about having brain damage everyone instantly believes him. While it bears some resemblance to standard Hero Behaviour the context of this whole thing does not actually have Tidus come out looking like a Hero. He's just someone who thinks the rules don't apply to him, and who always wants to be special and the centre of attention. honestly the whole "sin's toxin" thing is my favourite detail about FFX because after Tidus realizes that acting like he has brain damage makes people excuse all the dumb poo poo he does, watch how often and how quickly he trots it out. Like the instant he realizes he's committed yet another Unforgivable Crime he instantly just goes "uuuuh, sin toxin, I got too close to the thing" and then just waits for people to go "Oh, okay, that explains why you're such a loving idiot".
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Sep 14, 2019 15:22
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I get that you don't like Tidus, and we'll probably never agree, but I just don't think he's inherently a bad person. Even pulling that stupid stunt, his motivation was he thought someone was in trouble, and everyone else wasn't doing anything to help. He doesn't know what's going on, and no one seems about to offer an explanation. You can excuse most of them. But once Auron is around for good? He knows Tidus has no drat clue, and lets him continue blundering his way into situations because of that. Tidus is a big doofus, and sure he likes attention, but I think at heart he's a good kid, in a bad situation, that no one is giving him any real help with, especially the one who actually could.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:35
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Tidius is just rather dumb even when trying to help out. I think Tidus role as a total outsider to Spira is used pretty interestingly in some ways. Because yeah Spira needs some fresh perspectives and a lot of his observations are pretty on the money, but also his general distance from the culture and how he never totally engages with it means he makes some pretty severe yet well-intentioned mistakes. Not really barging into a cloister and getting people to shake their heads but more completely failing to recognise that Yuna is going to die and everyone has solemnly accepted this fact while he's been acting like everything is totally cool.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:38
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Yeah, that's the point where I can't excuse any of the other characters keeping him in the dark, besides Yuna who believes him right off the bat. It's really clear he has no idea what the end game of the Summoner's journey is. And they just keep letting him say unintentionally insensitive things like a dope, instead of taking his rear end aside and going "Hey...about that". That was a dick move on their parts.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:40
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I get that you don't like Tidus, See, I never said that. I like Tidus as a character, and I think he becomes more likable as a person over the course of the game. I think he starts the game as a prick, and was written that way on purpose because that's what makes sense for someone with his background. A big part of his character arc is realizing how self-centred he's been, and how inconsiderate of other people that had lead him to be. I don't think he's a bad person but I don't think you can dispute that Tidus, at the beginning, is someone who would be exhausting to be around for any length of time.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:44
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Like, I dunno I kinda get it. It's a really messed up situation that nobody wants to talk about, so they don't. And that's the culture.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:46
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