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Moneyball posted:You want an update? 
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Sep 13, 2019 22:22
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canyoneer posted:
I wonder if there are other kinds of witches. Forest witch? Tundra witch? Tidal witch? Dune witch? Do they communicate with one another? Are there conventions? These are important topics that, sadly, will never be addressed. Curse the mods.
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Sep 13, 2019 22:26
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Griefor posted:These things are very much correlated though. Giving a whole country a decent standard of living means that there's just gonna be less room for disgustingly rich people to be disgustingly rich. But you're right that retirement/college/vacation doesn't hit that threshold, not even close. Worded it badly but people like to throw out, for example, 100k as guillotine territory because they themselves only make 30k and that's what I'm talking about. The problem isn't that 100k is very much comfortable and so guillotine, it's that 30k is very much not okay and they need to be brought up. Where that guillotine line starts is certainly debatable but some people (not necessarily here) want to start that line way too early. Cyrano4747 posted:I fully agree that a comfortable life shouldn’t be the domain of the rich. Financing an overseas vacation on a CC because you don't have money *IS* BWM and deserves to be laughed at. But it doesn't mean that being able to afford an overseas trip every once in a while is "luxuriant". I'm putting you squarely in the people I'm talking about above.
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Sep 13, 2019 22:27
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totalnewbie posted:Worded it badly but people like to throw out, for example, 100k as guillotine territory because they themselves only make 30k and that's what I'm talking about. The problem isn't that 100k is very much comfortable and so guillotine, it's that 30k is very much not okay and they need to be brought up. Where that guillotine line starts is certainly debatable but some people (not necessarily here) want to start that line way too early. A rising guillotine blade lifts all boats
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Sep 13, 2019 22:33
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totalnewbie posted:
Yeah, it is. I say this as someone who has spent more than his fair share of time abroad and recognizes how privileged I was to do that. Would it be great if everyone got to experience that? Yep. Is it normal? Nope. Most of the people in the US can’t afford it which takes it right out of some kind of normative “middle class.” The fact that it’s held up as an ideal, a marker to show you’ve made it, is perverse and encourages self destructive (in an economic sense) behavior.
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Sep 13, 2019 22:33
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Yeah, that's the point! They CAN'T afford it but they SHOULD be able to afford it. The fact that the "middle class" can't afford it now doesn't mean that not being able to afford an international trip is the definition of what "middle class" should be. How do we define what a real middle class person should be able to afford? Saving for retirement, for kids school, no debt, reasonable living conditions, access to transportation, etc. etc. I would include (how often, exactly where, how lavish, etc up for debate but) international vacations in there. Because people who work hard deserve to be able to have some loving fun every once in a while. edit: In other words, if you don't think an international vacation should be within grasp of the middle class (totally fine!), it should be because you objectively don't think that middle class people shouldn't be able to afford international vacations, not simply because they can't afford it now. That's the kind of mentality that I'm saying is counterproductive to progress. I think the kind of mentality that "middle class can't afford it now so that's the way it should be" is a bit of Stockholm syndrome because we are all hostages to the super wealthy who are only that way because they're sucking all the blood out of everyone else. totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 23:13
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totalnewbie posted:Yeah, that's the point! They CAN'T afford it but they SHOULD be able to afford it. The fact that the "middle class" can't afford it now doesn't mean that not being able to afford an international trip is the definition of what "middle class" should be. You have a list of normal poo poo that people should have access to , but cap it off with international vacations. LIke, I too wish we lived in an world where everyone could have all the material wealth that we could possibly bestow, but that's not the world we live in. gently caress, just think through the environmental impact if every person on the planet could have an international vacation every once in a while. Say, every ten years? We're holding up an amazingly high standard of living as "normal." If we lived in a Star Trek universe where we had full space utopia with lack of want for resources or problems with pollution that would be one thing, but in the world we have right now it's self destructive in the extreme. Both to the individual (who goes into all sorts of BWM bullshit to afford these things) and to the rest of us (who have to live with the negative externalities of every "middle class / not poor" person flying abroad every few years.) Even setting aide the environmental issue, the fact that this is being sold as what the middle class should be is a huge problem. It's advocating a consumerist lifestyle that is way beyond what most people can afford as "normal." It sets expectations of what a "normal" life are that simply can't be met. New smart phone every year? Bullshit expectation. Vacation abroad every couple of years? Bullshit expectation. New car every 3-4 years? Bullshit expectation. Only wear a shirt on average 7 times before tossing it in favor of something new? Bullshit expectation. Huge expensive wedding that is a significant chunk of your yearly income? Bullshit expectation. All of these are ideas that exist only to sell poo poo, to create a consumer society that fuels the profits of an incredibly wealthy elite. This is incredibly destructive, and if you want to limit it to strictly BWM thread issues, it's very much so for the people who are conditioned into believing that these are just normal things that everyone should be doing. gently caress, "keeping up with the Jonses" has been a BWM trope since the goddamned 50s for a reason.
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Sep 13, 2019 23:28
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Cyrano4747 posted:The larger issue is that what most people think of as a “middle class” lifestyle is decidedly upper class, or at least very upper middle class. Like, taking a vacation that involves an airplane twice a year wasn’t a middle class norm for a long time. You're objectively right, but I think that middle class is more of a subjective feeling about where you stand in relation to others. Once something becomes "normal" it becomes something the "middle class" should be able to do. It's interesting. I know a lot of people who take at least one international trip a year, which is really cool, but they also grumble about barely getting by, and it's like man, you just flew to loving Spain a month ago...it's alright, you're doing fine. Airline travel is just one very specific example and I'm not trying to sound like a boomer, but I also find it interesting that our perception of what "middle class" should entail climbs over time.
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Sep 13, 2019 23:36
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Sep 13, 2019 23:41
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You make a good point about environmental effects, etc.Cyrano4747 posted:It's advocating a consumerist lifestyle that is way beyond what most people can afford as "normal." It sets expectations of what a "normal" life are that simply can't be met. Again, you are focused completely on what "normal" people currently, in a system we know is broken, can and cannot afford. quote:New smart phone every year? Bullshit expectation. Sure, there is an upper limit to what kind of spending constitutes "normal" and "middle class". I agree that new phone, new car, etc. don't fall into that. But I disagree that international travel necessarily falls into that same category. Externalities aside, going overseas is not all that different from going even across the US (if you fly). You can get flights to Japan from Portland for 500 round trip. You can get flights to Europe from NYC for less. A flight across the US is almost as much and even if you drive to Disneyland, you're guaranteed to spend some thousands of dollars for your family. But when you're in Japan or Europe, you could stay in hostels, eat cheap food, and go do cheap stuff for a week and you've come out ahead of whoever went to Disney. Or, you could take a first class flight to a private beach villa in Tahiti. I mean, these are all "international travel" right? Of course there's a (blurry) line between what's reasonable and what's absurd, but that has to do with how much money you're spending, not that it's "international". I just said "international" to clearly distinguish it from "go to the nearest actual city for a long weekend". As for consumerism fueling the wealthy elite, that's why we want to limit the ability of the incredibly wealthy elite to be incredibly wealthy in the first place. There is no reason this consumer society could not fuel profits for society. quote:This is incredibly destructive, and if you want to limit it to strictly BWM thread issues, it's very much so for the people who are conditioned into believing that these are just normal things that everyone should be doing. Yes, people living beyond their means is stupid and is destructive but this will be a problem regardless of how high up we bring everyone. People are financially self-destructive not because they see other people take vacations and just want to do it, they're financially self-destructive because they want to do it and do not recognize that they do not have the means to do so.
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Sep 13, 2019 23:47
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paternity suitor posted:You're objectively right, but I think that middle class is more of a subjective feeling about where you stand in relation to others. Once something becomes "normal" it becomes something the "middle class" should be able to do. It's interesting. I know a lot of people who take at least one international trip a year, which is really cool, but they also grumble about barely getting by, and it's like man, you just flew to loving Spain a month ago...it's alright, you're doing fine. Airline travel is just one very specific example and I'm not trying to sound like a boomer, but I also find it interesting that our perception of what "middle class" should entail climbs over time. As society progresses, what's normal should necessarily change. Sure, in the early 20th century, a refrigerator might rightly be considered a luxury but it's surely no longer a luxury. I mean, look, even the idea of a middle class is fairly recent (by chance, I wrote a paper on this topic in college. It was awful.). It used to be that there were just normal (i.e. loving poor) people and the uber wealthy. But some time through the 1500-1600s, this group of merchant class people started to emerge and they weren't anywhere near the lords and ladies, but they were also clearly not paupers. So clearly, it's possible to wholesale pull up entire groups of people to new living standards. I think there's nothing that says that we can't continue this process to raise everyone's standards so that even the "lower class" of the future enjoys the same living standards as today's "middle class". Of course you're right that it's all subjective and so the expectations of a real "middle class" would be higher than it is today, but then if the people in the "lower class" aren't struggling to survive and are ensured financial safety after retirement, don't have their children gated from education due to lack of finances, and can take some international vacationsetc., then maybe it's no longer so important to be "middle class". I also imagine that the "upper class" and "elites" of this future also would not be as far from everyone else as they are today. We don't have to keep the histogram the same shape it is today. totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 23:54
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Sep 14, 2019 00:05
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Sep 14, 2019 00:17
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paternity suitor posted:You're objectively right, but I think that middle class is more of a subjective feeling about where you stand in relation to others. Once something becomes "normal" it becomes something the "middle class" should be able to do. It's interesting. I know a lot of people who take at least one international trip a year, which is really cool, but they also grumble about barely getting by, and it's like man, you just flew to loving Spain a month ago...it's alright, you're doing fine. Airline travel is just one very specific example and I'm not trying to sound like a boomer, but I also find it interesting that our perception of what "middle class" should entail climbs over time. Yeah a lot of things, like (air) travel, consumer products, and food are cheaper now than they have ever been in the US. Still net-net, non-rich Americans are probably worse off now when compared to the past since housing, healthcare, & education costs have gone up. A lot of posters in the political subforums often don't know or conveniently forget the first sentence of my post, though, when they write their posts on this subject. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 14, 2019 00:35
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OK so I'm not going to even come close to making the claim that big vacations are a right. But consider this: Max 401(k): $19,000/ea per year College savings: A good $800/mo per kid for 18 years (given tuition trends, and yes I've done the math) Day care: most places around $2,500/mo for 2 kids For a family of 4, that's nearly $90k/year. Granted that's not for a lifetime, but you cannot possibly convince me that 150% of this nation's median household income should cover these 3 basic things. And also don't forget this is if you have the privilege of being able to contribute to a 401(k). BWM aside, something is hosed up here, and it ain't people taking a jet overseas once a decade.
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Sep 14, 2019 01:16
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Sep 14, 2019 01:16
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Lowness 72 fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 14, 2019 01:22
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Derail bird is watching u My idiot cousin impulse bought several hives of bees. As I'm a first year beekeeper his wife asked for advice and help, which I was happy to oblige by demonstrating an inspection. Dear god he was horribly uninformed. He was told the hives have mites - quite likely, as Varroa Destructor mites are really common and if not managed can take over a hive - but then described a bunch of big black beetles. If he'd done literally any research at all, he'd know that those are probably Small Hive Beetle, a nuisance but not usually dangerous unless something else is already weakening the hive. Mites look like little red freckles on the bees, SHB look like... well, beetles about half the size of a bee. There's no mistaking them, and if the previous beekeeper told him they were mites then that does not inspire confidence. It would be like being a farmer and mistaking cows and dogs. He then spent the entire time I was doing my inspection, trying to show him how to care for the bees and keep them alive and healthy, to ask how to get all the honey out, why couldn't he take all the honey, why isn't all the hive honey, why do they need baby bees, can't he just take all the honey? He didn't want to hear that he might need to wait into next year depending not what his inspection reveals, and oh yeah he actually has to do regular inspections and register his hive with the state. :commisar: He also let slip that he only wrapped up one of the hives before loading it in his truck and driving away, and a bunch of bees were desperately chasing the hive at night. He probably killed that hive from his incompetence. If he's lucky they can rebuild before winter, but if he tries to harvest at all...  Guy bought something worth probably close to $2000 or more in hives and bees and he's going to burn it all to the ground with his idiocy unless his much smarter wife takes the lead.
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Sep 14, 2019 01:36
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Sep 14, 2019 01:43
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I had an idiot neighbor growing up who was the definition of "keeping up with the Jones's", and bought a $7,000 purebred Golden Retriever puppy but couldn't even house train it. After a couple months and telling everyone in the neighborhood multiple times that he paid $7,000 for a puppy that shits and pisses all over his house, he got rid of it (hopefully to a better home). That guy was a huge piece of poo poo for so many reasons. My brother left a fairly expensive toy over at the guys house while he was playing with his son, then the guy denied that it was left there. We later found out from his wife that one of the Jones's showed up to his house and he pretended that it was his and gave it away to their son. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 14, 2019 01:48
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SpartanIvy posted:I had an idiot neighbor growing up who was the definition of "keeping up with the Jones's", and bought a $7,000 purebred Golden Retriever puppy but couldn't even house train it. After a couple months and telling everyone in the neighborhood multiple times that he paid $7,000 for a puppy that shits and pisses all over his house, he got rid of it (hopefully to a better home). My sister's in-laws are like that. The wife is ok if ditzy and weirdly competitive/sensitive about her 4yo son's size (they're both obese, so i get it) but her husband is an enormous piece of poo poo. He seems to subsist entirely on car accident fraud, disability from said fraud, and get-rich-quick schemes. He quit his job dealing at the local casino because "he didn't want to work anymore." That was it. He has no other qualifications and has a young son. He bought a bunch of sandblasting equipment to "start a business". Turns out you have to do work for that to happen, so it languished in the garage until he finally sold it. He's done this multiple times, buying a bunch of dumb poo poo off craigslist while dreaming big then selling it at a huge loss later. He made spending money over the summer selling carpenter bee traps - literally a piece of plywood with a mason jar attached. His next genius plan was to hire someone to do that minimal amount of work but not, like, pay them for it or anything. I think possibly by paying them in his pain medication, because nothing else makes sense. My sister and her husband tried helping them out on occasion, giving them a window A/C unit when theirs went out or letting them have some other stuff... and he went and sold it on Craigslist and kept the cash. He saw nothing wrong with this. They don't give him anything any more, and he occasionally complains because "that's not how you treat family". He's definitely one of those fuckers that takes donated goods then tries to sell them online later, then dumps them somewhere if they don't sell. Lest you think I'm elitist or prejudicial with these folks; I mentioned obesity because they have lots of health problems and they're frequently tight up for money because of it. She has occasionally dabbled in essential oils, despite being a nurse. I mention fraud because he's bragged as much in my hearing, not to mention his not wanting to work comment. He spends tons of money on his motorcycle and other toys that require physical fitness meanwhile his wife is worried if they can make their house payments. He spent a ton of (what is effectively his wife's) money on some Power Wheels, we suspect just to keep up with my sister and her husband. They're both engineers and with concordant salaries in a LCOL area and also GWM. I don't think he's actually stolen anything from my in-laws yet (not counting his selling donations), but I have no doubt he'd come up with a clever justification for it.
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Sep 14, 2019 02:39
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SpartanIvy posted:I had an idiot neighbor growing up who was the definition of "keeping up with the Jones's", and bought a $7,000 purebred Golden Retriever puppy but couldn't even house train it. After a couple months and telling everyone in the neighborhood multiple times that he paid $7,000 for a puppy that shits and pisses all over his house, he got rid of it (hopefully to a better home).
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Sep 14, 2019 03:26
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purebred just means its extra dumb and more health problems. Buying a purebred for anything but dogs shows and breeding is very very stupid
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Sep 14, 2019 03:29
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Fauxtool posted:purebred just means its extra dumb and more health problems. Buying a purebred for anything but dogs shows and breeding is very very stupid Dog shows and breeding is also stupid tho?
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Sep 14, 2019 03:33
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gvibes posted:How do you loving pay $7k for a golden retriever? They are one of the the most common breeds in the country. Knowing this guy he probably got scammed by someone on Craigslist, or he was lying, or both. He was squarely in the "If I spend foolish amounts of money on things they'll think I'm rich" mindset. After he got divorced and moved out of our modest neighborhood, I heard he moved into some McMansion by himself.
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Sep 14, 2019 03:35
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Like the guy in a $900 suit is going to waste his time house training a $7000 dog, I mean COME ON!
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Sep 14, 2019 04:16
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DarkHorse posted:Guy bought something worth probably close to $2000 or more in hives and bees and he's going to burn it all to the ground with his idiocy unless his much smarter wife takes the lead. Someone please save the bees from him. Abduct them in the night and give them away to a good home(me please) where they will get lots of love.
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Sep 14, 2019 04:50
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SpelledBackwards posted:Like the guy in a $900 suit is going to waste his time house training a $7000 dog, I mean COME ON!
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Sep 14, 2019 06:05
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Time to cross post some Good With Money.
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Sep 14, 2019 06:26
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PurpleXVI posted:Someone please save the bees from him. Abduct them in the night and give them away to a good home(me please) where they will get lots of love. I mean, it's one hive of Bees, PurpleXVI. What could it cost? Ten dollars?
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Sep 14, 2019 06:37
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Oh god not the bees
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Sep 14, 2019 07:31
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Beads?
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Sep 14, 2019 08:52
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Ceiling fan posted:Time to cross post some Good With Money. What were they gonna do to that clown? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the $7,000 untrained golden retriever with uncared for pickup truck bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you? GWM/GWL: 
howdoesishotweb fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Sep 14, 2019 |
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Sep 14, 2019 12:36
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DarkHorse posted:He also let slip that he only wrapped up one of the hives before loading it in his truck and driving away, and a bunch of bees were desperately chasing the hive at night. This is the most incredible mental image.
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Sep 14, 2019 16:20
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How to let people know it's not just a truck, but Truck Equity
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Sep 14, 2019 16:40
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That guy has BTE
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Sep 14, 2019 20:12
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https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/d4dzul/120k_income_massive_debt_sinking_more_each_month/quote:EDIT 10:45am: I have been trying to keep up but have almost 400 unread responses and countless questions under posts. THANK YOU to everyone. Every idea, feedback, support, criticism, eye roll, shared stories....I can’t say how much it means to me. I know my family will get out of this one way or another! Spouse has a 4 year degree and $0 income with $100k in credit card/loan debt. Going to throw this out there, maybe they could get some moonlighting income given at this point both kids should be sleeping through the night and able to be semi-self sufficient during the day? Edit: I guess the younger kid is special needs, but there are still many hours of the day unaccounted for, and there is $0 in medical spending in there despite allegedly hitting their $5k out of pocket maximum for the year. Overall their budget has holes in it. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 17:11
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From the comments:quote:The issue is not your finances. The issue is your wife is a LEECH on your family. Your kids are not infants. They do not need a stay at home mother. JFC, what a lovely thing to say, though.
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Sep 15, 2019 17:42
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Involuntary Sparkle posted:From the comments: I'm sure that poster is a joy to be around
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Sep 15, 2019 17:45
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Debt: $231,000, min monthly payments $4,190 Got dang jimmy bobby sonnova
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Sep 15, 2019 17:52
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