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Phanatic posted:Which is really ironic because most often being a spy for a foreign power pays poo poo. The historical examples that always get cited involve people up to their eyeballs in debt. It’s one of those things where when you’re a month away from your life imploding a low rent life preserver gets appealing.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:03
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Warbadger posted:It rarely pays enough to clear out major debts and all. We're talking like $2k or a couple hundred bucks for dudes making 6 figures and poo poo. They often aren't aware it's a government asking - just some nice person who wants to pay them a nice bonus to copy & paste some documents. Cyrano4747 posted:The historical examples that always get cited involve people up to their eyeballs in debt. It’s one of those things where when you’re a month away from your life imploding a low rent life preserver gets appealing. What Cyrano said, this isn't about having enough to clear your debts, it's about finding the guy who is in such a bad position he's not in a position to turn down free money.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:09
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It’s also why blackmail is also frequently a factor.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:13
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Warbadger posted:Yes, and many do because they are very ready to get the gently caress out of that system. But the CCP basically equates ethnically Chinese = always nationally Chinese and tries to drill ethno-nationalism into people pretty hard. They're well known for weirding out random 3rd+ generation ethnic Chinese citizens of other countries who have jobs in industry/technology/government with the good old "you're Chinese, thus you should spy on the outlander foreigners your family has lived among for the last 50-100 years" shtick. A cheap way to get cooperation that you can just spam and move on to more sensible methods if it doesn't work I always saw the financial screening criteria as a way to screen out the poors from intelligence positions, but maybe I'm being too cynical I do remember those American spies for the USSR in the cold war leaking poo poo, I think the naval yeoman and that CIA double agent were all about the money
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Sep 15, 2019 02:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Lol, the first is almost always said before it becomes the latter. Let me put out a different way. The first statement is just a fact. I hope it doesn't lead to anything worse, but it is what it is. Phanatic posted:Which is really ironic because most often being a spy for a foreign power pays poo poo. Once you hand over that first secret, they can always low-ball the victim and say "Take or leave it. And if you leave it we'll just call the FBI for you." Which is usually a bluff, but few desperate people worried about prison time see it that way.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:21
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Don Gato posted:What Cyrano said, this isn't about having enough to clear your debts, it's about finding the guy who is in such a bad position he's not in a position to turn down free money. It can be. It's often just about finding someone who doesn't see the harm/doesn't care, is greedy, and can be won over with a bit of cash and a kind word. Governments usually do a better job of explaining the potential harm and all that than private sector, which might explain why it's so rampant there. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 02:22
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Nebakenezzer posted:I always saw the financial screening criteria as a way to screen out the poors from intelligence positions, but maybe I'm being too cynical You are in fact wrong. Most intelligence positions are on the GS pay schedule, in the DC area. People leave work from spooky three letter agencies and head for their second jobs, especially in their early career at GS7 or whatever. I'm not even kidding.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:26
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Nebakenezzer posted:A cheap way to get cooperation that you can just spam and move on to more sensible methods if it doesn't work Walker was a CWO who retired, then recruited/press ganged his brother and son to spy as well. Ames actually got agents straight up killed, and he and Hanssen were spying for the Russians at the same time and compromising ongoing mole hunts, including their own.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:27
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Warbadger posted:I am gonna go out on a limb and say that no, ethno-nationalism is in fact very bad even if it does include some small perks for a favored ethnicity. It isn't ethno-nationalism. That's you jumping to the most negative interpretation of it instead of looking at the fact that there is nuance to it. It's not about a "small" per to a "favoured ethnicity" we're talking about people, and the right of people to have a home. There are over 10 million stateless persons in the world, they all deserve a homeland.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:31
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Captain von Trapp posted:You are in fact wrong. Most intelligence positions are on the GS pay schedule, in the DC area. People leave work from spooky three letter agencies and head for their second jobs, especially in their early career at GS7 or whatever. I'm not even kidding. There’s also a huge contractor contingent in the clearance jobs community. Same deal, though.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:32
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The biggest tell - in my opinion - for the pervasiveness of Chinese spying is that there was basically no protest from academics following a US government investigation into Chinese grad-student spy. Anyone would expect that the predominantly politically-liberal academia would strenuously protest anything which hinted at ethnic profiling. But, apart from one lone protest letter which had no follow-up, there was no protest. Based on that, it seems like nearly every major lab with a large Chinese grad student presence has had some security breach.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:32
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Sperglord posted:Based on that, it seems like nearly every major lab with a large Chinese grad student presence has had some security breach. "Gee, y'know...we *would* do a lot more to secure our poo poo, but these grad students...their tuition checks always clear and...what're ya gonna do?" 
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Sep 15, 2019 02:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:It isn't ethno-nationalism. That's you jumping to the most negative interpretation of it instead of looking at the fact that there is nuance to it. It's not about a "small" per to a "favoured ethnicity" we're talking about people, and the right of people to have a home. There are over 10 million stateless persons in the world, they all deserve a homeland. It's ethno-nationalism when the 3rd generation Canadian citizen (ethnically Chinese) person with a good job is being approached to steal poo poo from his work because he's of Chinese descent and thus should be loyal to China. It's also ethno-nationalism when a million+ minorities end up in concentration camps and subject to ethnic cleansing on their own traditional lands because the ethno-nationalist government comprised of the ethnic majority fears that these strange people might try to have their own homeland after generations of mistreatment. Stateless persons is a problem but the solution isn't ethno-nationalism and it has little to do with this discussion.
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Sep 15, 2019 02:42
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You're talking like a literally insane person and just making entirely irrelevant non-sequitors.Warbadger posted:It's ethno-nationalism when the 3rd generation Canadian citizen (ethnically Chinese) person with a good job is being approached to steal poo poo from his work because he's of Chinese descent and thus should be loyal to China. You're an idiot, this would happen regardless of whether China had a policy where you could apply for Chinese citizenship as long as your grandparents had it. (That policy would still be a good and humanitarian policy! Regardless of which country had it!) Edit to add that technically China doesn't even have this policy under Chinese law: https://www.thoughtco.com/chinese-citizenship-explained-688071 quote:China does not allow dual citizenship, as stated in Article 3.... quote:It's also ethno-nationalism when a million+ minorities end up in concentration camps and subject to ethnic cleansing on their own traditional lands because the ethno-nationalist government comprised of the ethnic majority fears that these strange people might try to have their own homeland after generations of mistreatment. Also completely irrelevant, this is Godwin's Law With Chinese Characteristics in action. America has thousands of people in camps without this policy. quote:Stateless persons is a problem but the solution isn't ethno-nationalism and it has little to do with this discussion. You have said little to do with this discussion. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 02:53
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You quoted my post about China approaching ethnically Chinese people for espionage reasons due to their ethnicity with a response about how it's actually a good thing because <stateless people>, so I'm gonna say you're full of poo poo. Nobody was talking about stateless people and the specific part of Chinese policy I was discussing in the post you quoted to insert stateless people into the discussion (appealing for loyalty to the nation based on ethnicity) is pretty clearly tied into ethno-nationalism. It's also absolute horseshit to call Godwin's law when we are right now discussing China at a point in time when China is doing the exact thing I am accusing China of doing. Like it wasn't Godwinning when somebody printed a 1945 newspaper article criticising Nazis for putting jews into concentration camps you idiot. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 03:06
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Warbadger posted:You quoted my post about China approaching ethnically Chinese people for espionage reasons due to their ethnicity with a response about how it's actually a good thing because <stateless people>, so I'm gonna say you're full of poo poo. I never said this. I said that in theory having a country where your family originated from where you could apply for citizenship could be good. You jumped off the deep end in response. Because you lose all sanity whenever China is brought up. quote:Nobody was talking about stateless people and the specific part of Chinese policy I was discussing in the post you quoted to insert stateless people into the discussion (appealing for loyalty to the nation based on ethnicity) is pretty clearly tied into ethno-nationalism. It's horseshit for you to jump to mentioning concentration camps as being somehow intractably linked to jus sanguinis.
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Sep 15, 2019 03:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I never said this. I said that in theory having a country where your family originated from where you could apply for citizenship could be good. You jumped off the deep end in response. Because you lose all sanity whenever China is brought up. So, what exactly did stateless people or jus sanguinis have to do with my post you quoted? Nobody except you is talking about these things. If you meant the bit about Ethnicity X = Nationality X, then yeah, that's ethno-nationalism and there are better solutions to statelessness than ethno-nationalism. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 04:18
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Doctor Grape Ape posted:Where do I sign up to be part of this Drone Defense Force? Trust me, you really don’t want that job. Also, who knows? Unmanned aerial system defense is in a policy responsibility nightmare hellzone because it’s such a tricky, nuanced thing and bridges the grey area between force protection and air defense (the mission, not the US Army branch) and so there is no great framework or group for running drone defense. Unrelated: one day the mere mention of China won’t make this thread lose its poo poo about Chinese people but today is apparently not that day. The lesson of WW2 was not how great of an idea racial profiling was.
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Sep 15, 2019 04:37
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China the country (meaning the CCP) sucks tremendous rear end. Chinese people are just people and therefore they suck rear end as well, but in the way that all people everywhere suck rear end.
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Sep 15, 2019 04:42
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Warbadger posted:So, what exactly did stateless people or jus sanguinis have to do with my post you quoted? Nobody except you is talking about these things. Where exactly in my original post did you see "ethno-nationalism"? Again, you're the one that went off on a weird irrelevant rant about the evils of China in response to a perfectly innocent aside. My OP: quote:The flipside of this though it's good to have a place you can always call home when things get legally weird in other countries. Many places due to how they give or take away citizenship means in many places around the world it's possible to be born there, not considered a citizen, or a citizen in your parent's country either; and having a country hypothetically go, "If you got at least any blood in you from here, you're one of us, forever, for now and always." Can be good. Which even isn't what China actually even does, I am just pointing out the use case of, "3rd generations removed still being eligible to claim citizenship" can be positive. FruitNYogurtParfait posted:China the country (meaning the CCP) sucks tremendous rear end. Chinese people are just people and therefore they suck rear end as well, but in the way that all people everywhere suck rear end. This post makes no attempt at making sense.
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Sep 15, 2019 04:51
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mlmp08 posted:and so there is no great framework or group for running drone defense.  i can see it now. Civil air drone militias like at the border lighting off belt fed usas12s everytime they see a bird or a leaf in the wind (poor Wash) thinking its a illegal drone. Using the same reason to exist of "well shiiit the gubmint wudnt doing enuff bought it"Edit: time for salvo and SPIW to make a comeback
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Sep 15, 2019 04:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:Where exactly in my original post did you see "ethno-nationalism"? Again, you're the one that went off on a weird irrelevant rant about the evils of China in response to a perfectly innocent aside. Let me rephrase, this argument is dumb as poo poo shut the gently caress up about it
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Sep 15, 2019 04:53
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:Let me rephrase, this argument is dumb as poo poo shut the gently caress up about it Couldn't you have phrased that in a way that wasn't racist? I dunno.
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Sep 15, 2019 04:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:Couldn't you have phrased that in a way that wasn't racist? I dunno. It wasn’t racist and this argument is dumb as poo poo. Let it go.
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Sep 15, 2019 05:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:Couldn't you have phrased that in a way that wasn't racist? I dunno. It was in absolutely no way racist, you can't read.
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Sep 15, 2019 05:12
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Warbadger posted:I am gonna go out on a limb and say that no, ethno-nationalism is in fact very bad even if it does include some small perks for a favored ethnicity. It's not ethno-nationalism to say that other people might have some loyalty to their place of origin, it's just common sense. And it's absolutely reasonable to consider it a counterintelligence risk.
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Sep 15, 2019 06:25
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Hauldren Collider posted:It's not ethno-nationalism to say that other people might have some loyalty to their place of origin, it's just common sense. And it's absolutely reasonable to consider it a counterintelligence risk. A third generation immigrant's place of origin isn't the place their great grandparents immigrated from. Assuming somebody should show loyalty to your government that they've never been a subject of or your society that they've never lived in simply because they share your ethnicity is a byproduct of ethno-nationalism. Anyways, this argument has gone on long enough and doesn't really matter. Edit: I was talking about the 3+ generation folks because that's the part that makes the Chinese approach really weird, especially for the people on the receiving end. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 07:08
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Warbadger posted:A third generation immigrant's place of origin isn't the place their great grandparents immigrated from. Assuming somebody should show loyalty to your government that they've never been a subject of or your society that they've never been a part of simply because they share your ethnicity is a byproduct of ethno-nationalism. Unfortunately for us the PRC is extraordinarily ethno-nationalist. But I am not talking about 3rd generation. I'm talking first generation. I may have misread your post however and if that is the case I apologize.
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Sep 15, 2019 07:15
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Warbadger posted:If any government entity with significant resources is interested in you, just assume your phone will be compromised by the time you leave the airport. Phones are not very secure when it comes to that stuff - but if you keep your devices with you at all times at least you don't have to worry about physical devices being jammed in there so you can just wipe 'em when you leave (and not worry about them breaking the device in the process). Is just wiping enough these days? I imagine it depends on the vendor, and some will wipe the operating system but not the lower-level firmware, or maybe some of the firmware but not all. Also, I'm thinking that one day we'll get to the point (if we're not already) where everyone is "interesting", attempts are made to automatically hack everyone's phone as soon as they land, every hotel room is bugged, everything is recorded forever, and some algorithms try to find the interesting stuff between all the ordering room service and farting. Maybe no state has enough storage for this yet? I know that some call centers not only record all conversations (as they tell you) but they also generate transcripts via voice recognition, and I'm sure that storing every word spoken by every visiting foreigner couldn't take up that much disk (or tape?) space.
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Sep 15, 2019 10:30
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Stravag posted:
It’s more like everyone has kind of agreed that a big unmanned fixed-wing bomb dropper thing like an MQ-9 equivalent is an air defense problem, and generally they see a tiny handheld drone taking video as a base or unit defense problem, but that leaves a real unfun grey area. But there’s still the argument that flying in air equals air defense even if it’s low altitude, small, and short-ranged. It gets even more difficult if some base commander were to have a laser or jammer or something that only reliably downs a drone out to X range but will gently caress up avionics or whatever out to X+++ range.
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Sep 15, 2019 10:58
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Buttcoin purse posted:Is just wiping enough these days? I imagine it depends on the vendor, and some will wipe the operating system but not the lower-level firmware, or maybe some of the firmware but not all. If by wiping you mean overwriting every bit, its fine. Butttttttttt that's hard to guarantee with phone stuff. My recommendation is to just not take anything but strict burner laptop/phones with no connection to your normal daily life anywhere you have a concern they might steal your poo poo at the state level. Also just assume with all the poo poo that the PRC is doing(social credit, extreme amounts of face recognition, other assorted big brotherisms) that the scenario you presented is already the case there and plan accordingly if you're taking a trip there.
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Sep 15, 2019 12:52
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mlmp08 posted:It’s more like everyone has kind of agreed that a big unmanned fixed-wing bomb dropper thing like an MQ-9 equivalent is an air defense problem, and generally they see a tiny handheld drone taking video as a base or unit defense problem, but that leaves a real unfun grey area. But there’s still the argument that flying in air equals air defense even if it’s low altitude, small, and short-ranged. Page 1891, the cosmoline-est page. "Okay, we made the grenade drones crash but now all our F-35s are flying upside down." I still like my idea of slaving a turreted air defense vehicle (I'm thinking Avenger) to a shotgun stock. Bring back clay games to the military. "Incoming, incoming, incoming, PULL!"
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Sep 15, 2019 13:19
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So I'm reading about this drone strike, and I didn't realize the Houthi had actually been conducting a drone bombing campaign against the Saudis. Also:quote:UN investigators said the Houthis' new UAV-X drone, found in recent months during the Saudi-led coalition's war in Yemen, likely has a range of up to 1,500 kilometres. I've been trying to find some deets but so far no dice Though as the thread has known for a long time, the line between "drone" and "guided missile" is blurry at the best of times e: well this is a bit of a rabbit's hole: Hornet's Nest 
Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 13:26
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Do we know what was used in the Saudi refinery strike? Drone dropping ordnance, drone landing and blowing itself up etc.? e: whoops had this tab open for a bit and missed Neb's post
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Sep 15, 2019 13:31
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Here's a reputed picture of a UAV-X. Looks like it uses a two stroke air cooled motor?
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Sep 15, 2019 13:44
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The US is actually saying it was cruise missiles now. I thought it sounded crazy at first but apparently the Houthis have been chucking some around previously not just discount scuds or whatever they usually use.
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Sep 15, 2019 13:52
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So how did the Houthis deploy these open source cruise missile type drones to attack a target that was presumably defended in some way?
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Sep 15, 2019 16:05
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D'aw, that drone looks like it could fit a tiny pilot inside!  Arglebargle III posted:So how did the Houthis deploy these open source cruise missile type drones to attack a target that was presumably defended in some way? Saudi incompetence.
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Sep 15, 2019 16:12
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edit: nvm
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Sep 15, 2019 16:29
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Arglebargle III posted:So how did the Houthis deploy these open source cruise missile type drones to attack a target that was presumably defended in some way? How many air defense systems would you need to defend a refinery against low-altitude cruise missiles? I'd imagine it would be a non-trivial task for anyone. Now multiply those defense requirements by every major civil institution within 1500km of the warzone and the cost is absolutely prohibitive with current systems. I don't think anyone is ready for long-range precision munitions in the hands of literally anybody who wants to try.
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Sep 15, 2019 16:34
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