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The caveats on these divination spells can be interesting to work with if you're running one investigative session for a change of pace. Or when you have an investigation component to a fighty adventure they seem like a good way to have players blow spell slots on non-combat stuff. However, trying to write around them every single time would just be a giant headache. If the campaign has a mystery focus I'd say it's the right call to ban them.
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Sep 15, 2019 09:10
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Gharbad the Weak posted:TooMuchAbstraction was the one who knew it was a Pop-O-Matic, not me. I'd be a better human if I understood wtf you're referring to their but I liked your Amazon analogy post mainly. At the risk of your reference flying even further over my head I noticed TooMuchAbstraction didn't post on page 195 but that's ok too, it's all good. e: oh you mean this! ee: ok which of you is this? clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 09:40
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A ban seems heavy-handed and uncreative, though, and I don't think it really takes magical protection to get around a Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead spell. Maybe I'm just not thinking about this creatively enough, but I have a hard time seeing what Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead accomplishes that's so unattainable by mundane means. Zone of Truth requires the subject to speak in logical truths, but it's not a Zone of Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth, Or So Help Me Gods. A cryptic rear end in a top hat might answer in "I might know, or I might not," which is technically always true and also completely useless; a tough gangster might reply "I'd really appreciate it if you buzzed off and sucked a lemon," which is also a completely useless non-answer. It's fine for getting straight answers out of low-level flunkies that are too scared or too underpaid to stick their necks out for their bosses, but in that case a ball-peen hammer is almost as good anyways. Speak to Dead is about as useful, I think. A murder victim that was poisoned or struck from the back probably couldn't tell you a lot more than what you could figure out from investigating the scene and interviewing the people around them, and they obviously wouldn't have any exclusive information on their killer. If I really wanted to run a mystery game, I guess I'd consider using Zone of Truth in an interrogation as a check in their favor, alongside ability checks, good roleplaying, and anything else that seems interesting, and the subject will spill the beans once the party scores a predetermined number of "hits."Logistically, I'd probably set it up like an escape room, where the hints strongly encourage a fairly direct and linear progression from one stage to the next, and give the players the freedom of deciding how to get each set of hints. But realistically I really wouldn't try to do too complex a mystery in D&D, knowing both the limits of the system and the dispositions of the people I play with. All these information-gathering spells are great as a way to reward players for picking and using utility spells, and it seems unfair to punish the player for playing the game as it was written. Practically speaking, I see them as a way of expediting the forensics process, which is great if the players either don't want to or don't know how to roleplay CSI: Elf Game for a couple hours.
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Sep 15, 2019 09:58
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Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight.
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Sep 15, 2019 12:43
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Midig posted:Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight. I assume you want Animate Dead, which has no hard cap, so it mostly just depends on how many 3rd-level spell slots the necromancer is willing to dedicate. Note that it's 4x as effective at keeping existing undead going than at raising new ones. That said, I wouldn't worry about hewing closely to the rules on this for a boss encounter. Throw as many in there as you like. If by some strange chance someone notices that the necromancer has more buddies than they "should" be able to, you can just claim that they've spent years studying this one spell and are better at it than dilettante adventurers could ever be.
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Sep 15, 2019 16:01
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Midig posted:Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight. I'd just be concerned about the Hero Zombie, he's an rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 15, 2019 16:21
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tildes posted:Do you mean does not? It sounds like it can but doesn’t have to from that. Sorry yeah "does not."
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Sep 15, 2019 17:15
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lightrook posted:A ban seems heavy-handed and uncreative, though, and I don't think it really takes magical protection to get around a Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead spell. Maybe I'm just not thinking about this creatively enough, but I have a hard time seeing what Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead accomplishes that's so unattainable by mundane means. You've got this like almost completely right, though I'd say the whole "It's truthful that I may know the answer to this" type stuff is basically a squishy ban instead of a real one. Players are likely to prefer an actual ban, since then they don't feel like they wasted their resources. Plus the last thing you want to do is get your players going on crafting weasel-proof syntax, that's boring in the main.
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Sep 15, 2019 17:33
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Midig posted:Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight. Danse Macabre allows you to quickly get some dead bodies off the ground for an hour.
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Sep 15, 2019 17:33
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You can work around the wishy washy "I may know this, or I may not!" stuff in combination with a spell like Suggestion or Command, with the right order. Might be worth considering those if you're trying to prevent a group from getting info. That does mean they're spending two leveled spells and requiring two failed saves, though, so at that point, you should probably just throw them a bone.
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Sep 15, 2019 18:20
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There's no need to ban Zone of Truth; it's easy as poo poo to lie by omission which the spell in no way prevents. Similarly with Speak With Dead, the RAW description says "Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive, and the corpse is under no compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy." As a DM you can work with that to still control the pacing of your story without just telling the players "no I don't like that so you can't do it."
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Sep 15, 2019 18:23
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Midig posted:Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight. There's more magic in the world than in the sourcebooks. If you want a villain to do cool and thematic stuff, go for it. There's plenty of in universe explanations for this. They could've struck a deal with a hag, found some ancient tome, spent years perfecting their own magic, etc.
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Sep 15, 2019 19:31
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mango sentinel posted:I'm not talking about bullying players, I'm talking about actually interegrating the patron into the character's story so it's not just a vestigial limb from a dip. I'm not gonna have a Patron show up for a Pal/Lock and demand they start murdering babies but there's still gonna be interplay between serving two masters. Just like someone with a 2 level Rogue dip is likely to have something from their street urchin days become relevant even if they're currently a cleric. It would probably be good if any of the things you mentioned were in any way mechanical, giving multiclassing real meaning, instead of what it is now, just a theoretical narrative band-aid over the game's only real space for meaningful character design and optimization.
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Sep 15, 2019 19:38
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Sodomy Hussein posted:It would probably be good if any of the things you mentioned were in any way mechanical, giving multiclassing real meaning, instead of what it is now, just a theoretical narrative band-aid over the game's only real space for meaningful character design and optimization. This just reads like absolute nonsense to justify not liking multiclassing. You don't have to use multiclassing rules, or can make up your own mechanics if you truly believe narrative is meaningless in a Role Playing Game.
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Sep 15, 2019 19:56
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I'm pretty sure you're misreading the intent of the post.
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Sep 15, 2019 19:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:I'm pretty sure you're misreading the intent of the post. I could be, since it reads like nonsense word salad.
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Sep 15, 2019 20:40
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Y'all know that it's possible to disagree with or fail to understand someone without immediately leaping to insulting them, right?
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Sep 15, 2019 20:54
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Y'all know that it's possible to disagree with or fail to understand someone without immediately leaping to insulting them, right? Take it to the 4E thread, grognard
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Sep 15, 2019 20:55
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theironjef posted:You've got this like almost completely right, though I'd say the whole "It's truthful that I may know the answer to this" type stuff is basically a squishy ban instead of a real one. Players are likely to prefer an actual ban, since then they don't feel like they wasted their resources. Plus the last thing you want to do is get your players going on crafting weasel-proof syntax, that's boring in the main. I wouldn't say it's a waste, you know every word is true. That's certainly better than wasting time investigating outright lies. It's a tool, not an out of the box solution.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:10
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I wouldn't say it's a waste, you know every word is true. That's certainly better than wasting time investigating outright lies. It's a tool, not an out of the box solution. Yay, you can tell your target's weaselly too-smart for the target half-answers aren't outright lies. The only thing that teaches you is that your useless spell is at least doing the exact kind of useless it was supposed to. I'm not saying that Zone of Truth should be some sort of iron interrogation never fail technique (I think the spell is stupid and should either be banned or just say "This spell gives you advantage on Investigate or whatever checks"), but having the target react with some 12th level mind chess runs counter to storytelling unless you happened to be investigating some sort of counter-intelligence brain genius, and you run the risk of turning it into just a sort of new puzzle generator inside an existing puzzle. At a certain point you might as well just throw down a crossword and have the players solve that if your game is built around player puzzle-solving capability instead of character puzzle-solving capability. theironjef fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 22:23
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lightrook posted:A ban seems heavy-handed and uncreative, though, and I don't think it really takes magical protection to get around a Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead spell. Maybe I'm just not thinking about this creatively enough, but I have a hard time seeing what Zone of Truth or Speak to Dead accomplishes that's so unattainable by mundane means. Obligatory "or just run your fantasy mystery campaign in a system that doesn't actively work against it".
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Sep 15, 2019 22:33
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I still think only not working against cult members is legitimate. If you can catch them in a lie then you know they are a cultist. If someone starts admitting everything they did from childhood on, you may find out they’re not a great person but at least you’ll know they’re not a cultist. Insight checks would help a lot with this too. Pass an initial insight check before the questions start: “Most people show at least a little apprehension when they’re about to be interrogated under truth compulsion but this guy seems unusually calm.” Passing an insight check during questioning: “You feel that something is not right. This guy is sitting right in the middle of the zone of truth but you can’t shake the feeling that he is lying to you.” nelson fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 23:10
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Working against players with their own powers is dumb. If a player takes a power like Zone of Truth or Speak With Dead, they've decided Knowing Things is an idea they're invested in, especially when it actually matters. Telling a player with the interrogation powers (powers that compete with other, jucier things for space, by the way) that they don't work during the session's only interrogation scene is kind of bullshit. "Don't work" in this case includes, "technically works but actually you learn nothing useful." Knowing who or what murdered the NPC and kicking off the whole campaign doesn't need to short circuit anything; "an elf with one eye" can lead to more investigations, not less, and you can even pepper descriptions with dire warnings of what's to come.
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Sep 15, 2019 23:18
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I didn't intend to imply that the DM needs to thwart Zone of Truth at every opportunity, just that it isn't a free pass to always get straight and clear answers. Practically, it should enhance the interrogation episode, without supplanting it entirely. I'd still expect the players to put some effort into browbeating out some answers, but I'd think the players would also value being able to corroborate someone's statements. In a hypothetical murder mystery, I'd still expect that the murdered nobleman would be helpful and forthcoming to the best of their limited ability, and their household staff to be as helpful to the investigation as possible, while still leaving room for the Mysterious Quest-Giver to keep their secrets. I meant to say that these are techniques the DM can use if the situation calls for it, not that they should need them all the time. But yeah, I agree that it's pretty frustrating to play with a DM that's adversarial for the sake of being adversarial, especially when the circumstances don't call for it.
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Sep 16, 2019 00:03
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neonchameleon posted:I couldn't agree more about these points. I'd also say that a good half of the 4e/5e edition war is between people who on the 4e side want D&D to focus on what you describe it doing well and on the 5e side who think that D&D should be a generic "default" RPG in which they want to run anything. They both tried to simplify while retaining the basic "legacy" feel of the D&D system. 5E has a flatter progression which makes even low CR monsters potentially dangerous; 4E has the minion mechanic. 4E balances out character abilities but had all these edge cases that they kept having to patch (Avenger multiclassing, for example), while 5E returns to the traditional "magic is better" approach that makes character effectiveness dependent upon the number and ease of short and long rests over the course of an adventure. 5E is closer to the "all I need to play is something to write on and something to write with, plus dice" approach while 4E's more complex character development options means you probably want to use an online character builder/tracker or have cards for all your At-will, encounter and daily powers. 4E takes more work to kitbash, so preferring 5E if you want a "default" system is reasonable (though something like FATE is much more flexible). As for Zone of Truth, depends on how good you are at thinking on your feet. It is remarkably easy to speak the absolute truth in an utterly misleading way. In a situation where the PCs have the absolute advantage and can force someone to answer, they'd answer anyway, right? So "Why should I answer your questions after you cast a spell on me without my permission?" is a reasonable response otherwise. If the PCs have somebody helpless, allowing Zone of Truth to work is probably a better option than rolling intimidation or allowing one of your players to demonstrate how long they've been waiting to torture an NPC. Crimes of passion wouldn't be too hard to solve in a D&D setting, but premeditated murder is a different story. Put a bag over the victim's head or kill them from behind so they don't see who murdered them, in case of Speak with Dead or a Raise Dead spell. Nondetection or a similar effect to dodge divination spells, be able to walk away from a Zone of Truth without answering ("I am offended that you don't trust me and refuse to speak with you further"). At higher levels you might need a god running interference for you or Commune is likely to expose you. Mind Blank is the ultimate defense at very high levels.
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Sep 16, 2019 01:28
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I'm running a game with an investigative element currently, and the way I handle speak with dead is usually to decide in advance that, if the PCs use the spell, the corpse can tell them one of a possible set of clues. And then on the night depending on how events are unfolding I pick whichever clue is most appropriate (maybe two if needed), and adjust the events slightly to account for any missing information. Same with Zone of Truth, don't approach it from the point of view of "how do I stop my PCs short circuiting things", instead think "what piece of information do I want to give a player who uses Zone of Truth?" and then even if the NPC starts giving deliberately obtuse answers or pleading the fifth after that (which you can easily justify with "[character] realises they've said too much and clams up"), the players still got a reward for use of their resources.
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Sep 16, 2019 02:08
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Midig posted:Ok, quick. What are the limitations and powers of a warlock that can summon some dozens of zombies? I would imagine that a necromancer could be quite powerful if they hoarded bodies somewhere. Are there strict limitations on the number of zombies they can resurrect or keep alive at one time? I want to give my paladin some time to shine and I hope this will be that moment. Party is all level 4, I would want the party to first fight his zombies, then the necromancer, but he resurrects some corpses during the fight. Your encounters can be whatever you want so don’t worry too much about spell limitations if you’re going for something specific. Maybe set a hard limit on how often it happens, or have a trigger for when it occurs and how it occurs. For instance, maybe in the middle of the fight they notice the necromancer starts chanting and his wand begins to glow with dark magic. Suddenly the zombies begin to stand back up and piece themselves together. Now the players know if they don’t stop the necromancer from using his wand or chanting he’ll make the zombies stand up again. I like to do this same thing with an element in the room that’s not on the main target’s body, so instead of a wand maybe a skull trapped in a steel cage begins to glow, giving the players two options: stop the necromancer or stop the skull.
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Sep 16, 2019 02:57
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Okay real talk, don't loving stop zone of truth forcing people to tell the truth. Ignore the lovely caveats that actually make the spell completely and utterly useless. Just let it work, same with speak with dead. This is a setting where even if you get a complete and accurate detailed description including the name and address of the killer and what the used to kill the person, it is almost useless for determining who the killer or criminal is. There are so many mind control and alter physical features spells and some of them are very low level for what they do that even getting the absolute truth from suspects and victims doesn't really give you a huge lead or break in the mystery.
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Sep 16, 2019 03:17
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Agreed, the best way for Zone of Truth to be used is for the truth to be a lie.
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Sep 16, 2019 04:01
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Give them one piece of useful information when they succeed at any investigative task. Finding the right person and ZoTing them counts. You do that, you get one useful piece of information. Or I mean just give them a shitload of info that's just some hooks strung together because mystery/investigation stories aren't over as soon as there's a witness or suspect who's telling the truth. You've got Snitchin' Steve (Big Luis' driver) by the collar and you ask him "Who killed Ronny the Rat?" "Gruv, the doorman at Rusty's Nail. He did it with the axe he won from Bert Kneecaps in Luis' poker game last Friday. Then he ran away up Dropnuts Street and nobody's seen him since. Last time he was on the lam he was staying with his mum's friend in Three Towers. You should check with your boss about this one before you get in deep poo poo".
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Sep 16, 2019 06:08
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The basic lesson is that in D&D a mystery should never just be "oh some dude killed another dude" because PCs don't really get involved in that mundane poo poo, it should always involve something like a mindflayer hive or a secret vampire preying on people or an evil cult or something else buckwild. Zone of Truth tells you "oh it sure was this guy who kidnapped the missing other guy" but it doesn't help out when you kick down his door to arrest him and instead find he's already been killed by the rakshasa he was working for, and now the local nobility is stopping your investigation because they're likewise under it's paw. But now you have that lead.
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Sep 16, 2019 06:14
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I'm going to DM for a small club. Am I right in that I need the PLayer's Guide, the DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual?
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Sep 16, 2019 10:05
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You don't need the DM's Guide but it helps. Also, digital resources are more convenient to use references when it comes to magic items and monster statblocks.
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Sep 16, 2019 10:08
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Conspiratiorist posted:You don't need the DM's Guide but it helps. Jesus, don't recommend someone skips out on one of the core rulebooks, even if half the advice on how to run the game is broken. Yes, you need a DMG. If that's a significant outlay you can't afford, you could look at running one of the older editions of D&D that are a bit simpler/don't require buying as many books to get started. Rules Cyclopedia is possibly the best version of D&D ever and has everything you need for years of play for a $40 hardcover: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic
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Sep 16, 2019 12:34
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Professor Shark posted:I'm going to DM for a small club. Am I right in that I need the PLayer's Guide, the DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual? Yes, this is what you'll want to get started. While supporting a local game store is great, Amazon typically has a pretty steep discount.
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Sep 16, 2019 12:40
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I use D&D Beyond for all my D&D books. It’s digital, comes with an awesome character builder, and lets you share books with people in the same campaign. FACEBOOK20 might give you a 20% discount. I don’t know if it’s still valid (it worked last month). Even if it doesn’t, there are usually coupon codes available so it’s worth searching the Internet for.
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Sep 16, 2019 14:30
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Any mystery that happens without magic can be solved trivially with magic. The problem isn't the magic being too strong, the problem is the mystery being too mundane. If you don't want a mystery to be trivial by fantastic means, you have to think outside the box and create a fantastic mystery.
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Sep 16, 2019 15:32
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Gonna echo the rest of the thread here, but when one of your characters has a hotline to Jesus and can ask him for help maybe don't expect "who knifed the abusive husband" to be a plot the players take seriously.
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Sep 16, 2019 15:40
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Professor Shark posted:I'm going to DM for a small club. Am I right in that I need the PLayer's Guide, the DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual? If you've played before and know how the game works, you can get by with a PHB. I know because I've DM'd a party of 8 complete beginners for a few months now with no resources but a PHB and the new DM screen that has some basic tables
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Sep 16, 2019 15:47
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Paladin: We will have the truth from you, curr! ZoT Victim: Your armour looks dumb and you talk like a prick. Rogue: Ha ha ZoT Victim: You look like a gimp fell through a cutlery store and the girl in the dressing gown smells like pot pourri the cat ate and threw up and ate and shat out and I don't know how you guys haven't noticed yet but the guy with the lute has the bone of all bones fo Bard: I CAST SILENCE
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Sep 16, 2019 16:21
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