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Khorne posted:Tab also allows unparalleled accuracy in targeting. Especially when things are stacked. I think you've accurately identified why I read a lot of takes that don't care for tab targeting.
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Sep 16, 2019 16:32
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Toshimo posted:I think you've accurately identified why I read a lot of takes that don't care for tab targeting. I mean, if your going to use hit detection, I can actully put my tanks in front, healers and dps in back, open up flanking etc. I would be even more open if you use hit detection + stop at first hit (using a ray system I guess). If I fire 3 arrows it should hit 3 targets with tab targeting only giving me the direction of the center. Use the same rules for casters, give me defensive moves for rain like effects (shields up?). Ultimately this would give us the opportunity for a lot more tactics and better PVP encounters since you could use a range of hard and soft counters to what the other guy is doing.
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Sep 16, 2019 16:49
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Yeah, tab target is a big old shitbag precisely because of the accuracy. There's no input required, you just spam your attacks and that's that. I used to play a lot of DDO and my friend put it pretty nicely when he said "i saw an arrow flying at me through the door, so i moved over. the wizard behind me ate it and died lmao"
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Sep 16, 2019 17:03
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Truga posted:Yeah, tab target is a big old shitbag precisely because of the accuracy. There's no input required, you just spam your attacks and that's that. Those things don't feel related.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:16
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Truga posted:Yeah, tab target is a big old shitbag precisely because of the accuracy. There's no input required, you just spam your attacks and that's that. There's tab targeting systems where you don't automatically face your opponent so manual input is still required. Isn't that how FFXIV works? Been a little while since I've played. Toshimo posted:I get it. You don't like it. But it's very popular and a lot of people do. It's not the thing keeping a good MMO from getting made, though. It'd be nice if we could discuss this like reasonable adults, but good luck.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:22
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They're very related. If you want the accuracy of "targeting something in a big group will hit exactly that target", you lose the ability to dodge poo poo, for projectiles to switch targets, etc, because projectile will fly straight through other people and/or walls if the person moved behind a wall to achieve that.Zaphod42 posted:There's tab targeting systems where you don't automatically face your opponent so manual input is still required. Isn't that how FFXIV works? Been a little while since I've played.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:23
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Truga posted:They're very related. If you want the accuracy of "targeting something in a big group will hit exactly that target", you lose the ability to dodge poo poo, for projectiles to switch targets, etc, because projectile will fly straight through other people and/or walls if the person moved behind a wall to achieve that. Those are true of how EQ and WOW did tab targeting, but are not required. That's what PyRosflam just described. You could have tab targeting to pick who to aim at, but still have a projectile or ground target or whatever that can then be dodged or impact another person on the way to the one you aimed at. You can easily design tab targeting systems to work either way. A tab target system could still take into account people moving behind walls. Its code; code can do whatever you tell it to do. Personally, I am desperate for more MMOs that don't have tab-target combat; but I also don't think its the worst necessarily.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:26
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Yeah GW2 kinda goes halfway like that, in the end it plays *exactly* like tab targeting for pve. Pvp is slightly different if you play non-melee, but still mostly feels like tab-target poo poo. e: to clarify, long range feels exactly like tab target game, melee usually play pretty well in gw2.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:27
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This is a bit random but I will say one thing I think mmos need more of is mobility options. WoW's Demon Hunter wings feel loving amazing and its hard to go back to other classes once you've gotten used to having a double-jump and glide ability all the time. Other classes just feel... lame. Less fun. In SWTOR, I played a marauder which had an ability that was a dash strike, like an intercept move. When you hit it, it would charge you straight at your opponent in a flash to strike them. You could activate it in mid-air. So it became my whole thing to just watch the cooldown on that dash move, and every single time it was up, I would find some large ledge and fling myself off it, then hit the dash button in mid-air to go flying across the map, landing saber-first on my enemy. poo poo just feels good, and fun. So why is stuff like that so extremely rare? And you can do things like that in either tab-target combat or non. WoW and SWTOR are both tab target. But Destiny is FPS combat and also has cool moves that send you flying through the air like that. More games need superman flying moves and poo poo. E: And DCUO lets you fly or gives you super speed and it just feels cool as hell to fly around the level like superman and swoop down to save someone. But then WoW gave players flying and took it away because they don't like people skipping things 
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Sep 16, 2019 |
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Sep 16, 2019 17:39
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Archeage was very mobile.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:41
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Chomp8645 posted:Archeage was very mobile. One of few MMOs I never tried  looking at a video, it looks like FFXIV on steroids. Which is kinda what we were discussing, yeah.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:43
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Zaphod42 posted:poo poo just feels good, and fun. So why is stuff like that so extremely rare? Because programming combat on the z-axis is cumbersome and expensive.
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Sep 16, 2019 18:03
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knox posted:Did anyone play Everquest Online Adventures on PS2? Castle Lightwolf gang. I was in awe as a young teenager of the super loser friends from SOCOM1 that I played with who reached level 50 first. Seeing the WoW Classic first max level being watched by 350k reminded me about it. I really wanted to play this game. There are attempts to bring it back but I don't think that will ever happen.
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Sep 16, 2019 18:48
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I wish all the Korean made MMOs would start actually putting security first instead of a "everyone has a KSSN anyway so we can just ban them" afterthought, then adding on multiple badly made anticheats that set off Windows Defender because they're trying to patch system files, disable code signing, install a rootkit, and send PII data overseas in plain text. I don't think there's a single one of them that hasn't had people in godmode flying around at high speed day 1.
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Sep 16, 2019 19:27
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retpocileh posted:I see this sentiment expressed a lot, I don’t fully agree. I feel like nearly all opinions of this nature are heavily tinted by nostalgia. I also have good memories of exploring in games from when I was in college and high school, but it likely wouldn't be possible to recreate the same sort of thing (in any way that endured beyond a few weeks or so) now. And even if someone still could enjoy that type of game, it wouldn't become big in the same way WoW originally did.
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Sep 16, 2019 20:50
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Chomp8645 posted:Archeage was very mobile. Black Desert too. Worse ships but better horse combat.
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Sep 16, 2019 21:39
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Zaphod42 posted:This is a bit random but I will say one thing I think mmos need more of is mobility options. Warfraammeeee
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Sep 16, 2019 23:13
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like nearly all opinions of this nature are heavily tinted by nostalgia. I also have good memories of exploring in games from when I was in college and high school, but it likely wouldn't be possible to recreate the same sort of thing (in any way that endured beyond a few weeks or so) now. What about dark souls?? Enjoying being lost isn't all nostalgia.
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Sep 16, 2019 23:21
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Zaphod42 posted:This is a bit random but I will say one thing I think mmos need more of is mobility options. I used to play an enchanter in Shadowbane and those bad boys could float above a group fight and identify, so I'd pull, avoid all damage, then ransack the loot before anyone else could see what it was 
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Sep 17, 2019 06:02
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Larry Parrish posted:really what I want is just an open world pvp game that's somewhat persistent. like I played tons of HellMOO back in the day. fights generally came down to who had stomach to grind, but that was because every fight evolved into a big brawl betweens corps and who had more of a gear stash since it was full loot pvp. i want someone to make a graphical mmo that gives me the rush of breaking into someones apartment with my friends and fighting off ten players + the NPC cops while we steal everything of value To be honest, having played Hellmoo to death, I wouldn't even say grinding was that important in the game. Something like vanilla WoW feels way more grindy and asinine about levels in comparison. In Hellmoo, if you really know what you're doing, you can spend a few afternoons on a character to get its fists skill up to 15, then grab a jawbreaker and some tire armor and you now have a very legitimate chance to take on one of the king spergs on the server. It just required you to have the knowledge required how to do these things, and maybe some friends to help you on your way. In a way, Hellmoo does a very good job at promoting teamwork and communication, and there's a lot of "mentoring" that goes on when you play it. I think the concept of economic warfare is interesting in Hellmoo as well. Since all gear drops on death, there is no gameplay of slowly increasing your numbers through your gear until you're totally untouchable. Instead, even the most well geared dude can still die to some funny gimmick poo poo like a clusternuke or being dropped out of a plane, or just from being hammered to death by 3 naked guys. It follows that you aren't really comparing gear or numbers, you're really comparing bank accounts and tactics. Knowing when to attack, bringing the right gear against the right opponent, grouping up and so on. Hellmoo doesn't really do it perfectly though. I think replacing gear is often a little too difficult, especially as a new player, and I absolutely loathe the concept of being able to break into other people's apartments to steal all their poo poo while they're asleep in real life. But with slightly better balancing, it could be a really good system. Xun posted:Warfraammeeee Warframe has always been vaguely interesting to me but personally I'd really like that persistent open world to run around in. It doesn't even need to be a dedicated MMORPG server, just stream people into my game randomly like Absolver does. I've also heard that Warframe is a little bit bad about its F2P mechanics. Ytlaya posted:I feel like nearly all opinions of this nature are heavily tinted by nostalgia. I also have good memories of exploring in games from when I was in college and high school, but it likely wouldn't be possible to recreate the same sort of thing (in any way that endured beyond a few weeks or so) now. Zaphod42 posted:What about dark souls?? Enjoying being lost isn't all nostalgia. I think the main difference is that Dark Souls is largely singleplayer and MMORPGs aren't. There is a very good incentive to optimize the gently caress out of your experience in MMORPGs. The faster you get to max level, the better. Being ganked by higher level players constantly in WoW Classic acts as a pretty good incentive to stop loving around and just get XP, for example. Minorkos fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 11:29
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Couldn’t you make yourself fully immune to offline break ins using a simple door bar? (HellMOO)
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Sep 17, 2019 14:43
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Minorkos posted:Warframe has always been vaguely interesting to me but personally I'd really like that persistent open world to run around in. It doesn't even need to be a dedicated MMORPG server, just stream people into my game randomly like Absolver does. I've also heard that Warframe is a little bit bad about its F2P mechanics. warframe is extremely good about f2p mechanics. the only thing you need to buy is frame/weapon slots, and if you wait for -75% sale 20 bucks will be enough to afford slots for like 80% weapons/frames, which is like 200 hours of playing before you'll spend all that. Truga fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 14:50
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Truga posted:warframe is extremely good about f2p mechanics. the only thing you need to buy is frame/weapon slots, and if you have for -75% sale 20 bucks will be enough to afford slots for like 80% weapons/frames, which is like 200 hours of playing before you'll spend all that. not gonna lie the last TennoCon stream I was VERY surprised by the numbers of viewers it had, I didnt know Warframe was still that popular
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Sep 17, 2019 14:57
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warframe is one of the most fun up-to-4 player games you can play right now imo. the main gameplay loop is basically "go faster. no, nonononono, faster", and everything around it is there just to support that goal. weapons and skills are deadly, as are (high level) enemies, so it ends up being a game built around killing poo poo before it can hit you. also, as long as you're flying through the air or sliding or doing other acrobatics, the enemies have very bad accuracy, so your main defense is speed, too. also, since the weapons aren't procgen like borderlands, there's some real out there poo poo in there. my personal favourites are: a shotgun that shoots filings from a spinning metal wheel instead of having a clip with ammo, which cuts enemies into little chunks. also, a single reload is good for up to 245 shots depending on how hard you're holding the trigger lmao a pistol that shoots big waves of radiation that disintegrate enemies a big, rocket powered hammer that can launch enemies into space
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Sep 17, 2019 15:18
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are there any recommendations for something like wurm online but with less wurm online developer team?
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Sep 17, 2019 19:02
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Truga posted:warframe is extremely good about f2p mechanics. the only thing you need to buy is frame/weapon slots, and if you wait for -75% sale 20 bucks will be enough to afford slots for like 80% weapons/frames, which is like 200 hours of playing before you'll spend all that. Also the paid currency is tradeable and on PC it's piss easy to make enough to buy a full set of slots in like...an hour+trade time if you're unlucky with drops.
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Sep 17, 2019 21:23
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Minorkos posted:To be honest, having played Hellmoo to death, I wouldn't even say grinding was that important in the game. Something like vanilla WoW feels way more grindy and asinine about levels in comparison. In Hellmoo, if you really know what you're doing, you can spend a few afternoons on a character to get its fists skill up to 15, then grab a jawbreaker and some tire armor and you now have a very legitimate chance to take on one of the king spergs on the server. It just required you to have the knowledge required how to do these things, and maybe some friends to help you on your way. In a way, Hellmoo does a very good job at promoting teamwork and communication, and there's a lot of "mentoring" that goes on when you play it. I was one of the reroll addicts which is why I mention grind, but yeah, that's why I loved HellMOO so much. The actual PVE game was insanely easy, unless you didn't have friends, which kind of forced everyone into 3-4 big groups that then spent all their time politicking and fighting. I havent played another PVP game that gives you that same rush of desperately trying to kill someone, loot them, and run home before their friends teleport in to gently caress you up.
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Sep 17, 2019 22:55
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I said come in! posted:I really wanted to play this game. There are attempts to bring it back but I don't think that will ever happen. It had such a small tightknit community, moreso than most small tightknit MMO communities due to being I guess the 2nd console MMO after PSO? and having to have the network adapter + the keyboard + whatever else. And the servers been shutdown for so long I don't know how it'd be brought back. But yeah watching some youtube videos gave me crazy nostalgia I definitely spent a shitload of hours in my young teens on that game. Super enjoyable but they needed more people creating stuff to do for sure, for endgame aspect.
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Sep 17, 2019 23:17
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Can they just give Guild Wars a rerelease with better graphics and new content That'd be nice
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Sep 19, 2019 03:52
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To me, a MMO describes a game with a persistent online world you can interact with others in that you can drop in and out of, a game where you join up with a few other people at a time before going back into your hub just feels like a game lobby browser with graphics, which sorta dampers the massive multiplayer online description to me
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Sep 20, 2019 01:25
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PyRosflam posted:lel physics based combat in mmopeger Gee this thread be spinnin' round and around Also +1 to Warframe not a real mmo. It's a lobby-based game with public match making and an online auction-house. It is really no more of an MMO than diablo or PoE is. SweetBro fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 04:08
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:To me, a MMO describes a game with a persistent online world you can interact with others in that you can drop in and out of, a game where you join up with a few other people at a time before going back into your hub just feels like a game lobby browser with graphics, which sorta dampers the massive multiplayer online description to me Agree, although I think you can blur the lines pretty heavily. What if that game where you meet up with a few people, you could bump into a few more people, and over time those "more people" would get swapped out for others? That pretty quickly becomes indistinguishable from the totally huge persistent online world. And it also would allow for developers to have more control over populations of areas. Lots of WoW's zone design is totally hamstrung by the fact that they need to spread out 100 players so nobody's stepping on each others' toes. If you could load a party of 5 people into a zone with 3 other parties of 5 people, but over time you dynamically swap out those 3 parties with dozens of others, it'd feel just like a big huge persistent MMO but you'd avoid almost all of the issues of MMOs. You could also better control matchmaking for things like world pvp. That's the potential for games like Destiny or Division, but so far they've REALLY failed to capture that gameplay model, and so in practice they're much closer to Guild Wars 1 and basically "hub game plus co-op" like you're saying. And that's NOT an MMO. But, I really think if they just did a bit more, it could convincingly feel like an MMO after all. But they're not remotely there yet.
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Sep 20, 2019 06:56
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Yeah, HellMOO!!!!
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Sep 20, 2019 09:25
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:To me, a MMO describes a game with a persistent online world you can interact with others in that you can drop in and out of, a game where you join up with a few other people at a time before going back into your hub just feels like a game lobby browser with graphics, which sorta dampers the massive multiplayer online description to me Yeah I was disappointed with Vindictus too. Nice combat otherwise I guess.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:01
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Zaphod42 posted:Agree, although I think you can blur the lines pretty heavily. What if that game where you meet up with a few people, you could bump into a few more people, and over time those "more people" would get swapped out for others? That pretty quickly becomes indistinguishable from the totally huge persistent online world. This is basically what Elite did, and for most small group cases it's okay. Elite's problem is that it doesn't make sure your friends are all in the same instance, which completely fucks up a lot of co-op experiences - but that's a separate story, so long as you avoid dropping friends or instance by group rather than player it's good for stuff where a single group of 5-10 runs into other groups. Stuff where a full guild is PvPing another guild would be a problem, but then there's nothing that says PvP has to be a part of every game, and it might be good to have a hard limit on how many individuals can be in an instance. EVE's fleet fights both before and after TiDi implementation are great examples of how unlimited players on-field can just become unfun. Like you said, there definitely is market space for a party-instanced, globally-persistent world. We're just in one of those ruts where nobody's sure if it'd be profitable yet.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:44
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Good Dumplings posted:EVE's fleet fights both before and after TiDi implementation are great examples of how unlimited players on-field can just become unfun. on the other hand, planetside
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Sep 20, 2019 22:33
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Re: tab targeting - Zelda, Dark Souls, EvE and Phantasy Star Online all have tab targeting, just bound to a different key. With bringing up HellMOO, I think one reason for the tab targeting implementation in MMOs is how MMOs, especially the EverQuest -> WoW segment of the family tree, grew from DikuMUD. Most MUDs didn't describe space precisely, but most MMOs have to because they represent things visually*. Maintaining the same core gameplay loop as a DikuMUD but with graphics requires some extra arbitration and that ends up being range. So why are we protecting the core gameplay loop of a DikuMUD? 1. It is economic in describing space. Multiple objects can occupy the same space and the gameplay loop still works which means you can have a game that functions without every client having to be in agreement with each other, only with the server. Measures to arbitrate conflicting reports** from clients affect the gameplay less. 2. The core gameplay loop is not mentally taxing, allowing a spectrum of playstyles. This is valuable for persistence, since players may want to play the game at different intensities over what is presumed to be large time frames. 3. The design is simple, allowing the content creators for zones and what-not to inject mechanical novelty regularly easily. Just as important, you can signal that information without even needing so much as a palette swap. You can tweak stats, utilize different types of actions, organize groupings, etc. to produce variety. You don't need to generate or animate more 3D assets like one does to create a new mario bad guy or what not. Maybe it's still around and I just don't know where, but I feel like there was an era where there was a lot more experimentation. 10-player MUDs testing new mechanics but doomed to failure, persistent NWN servers, and mods of all sorts of games. My intuition is that people are playing less with persistence these days and so new ideas take a full $100 million cycle and are being generated slowly and always with baggage. *exceptions: maybe not The Realm and some weird South East Asia MMOs with instanced Final Fantasy style fights? **by conflicting reports, a example would be player A and player B moving to occupy the same doorway at the same time on their end, the signal for which is received at different times by the server. The game has to decide which player to allow to occupy the spot and that's almost always unsatisfying for one of the players.
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Sep 22, 2019 15:23
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piL posted:Maybe it's still around and I just don't know where, but I feel like there was an era where there was a lot more experimentation. Experimentation has kinda been killed by the rise of AAA dev and the changed attitudes towards modding. I think bigger game studios are now focusing on making these huge projects with massive budgets, and they HAVE to tick a bunch of boxes so that they can make back their bloated marketing budget. I assume this is because the games industry is bigger now, meaning game studios can't just put out fun little games in the hopes that people buy them, because games like that are just going to get buried under the massive supply of other games coming out. That said, smaller games can still do well, but only if they happen to provide something no other games can provide. There's also the fact that the boomers funding AAA game dev studios tend to loathe modding as a concept. Obviously, if you let people make their own DLC then they wont spend money on shark cards or whatever. However, a good deal of insanely popular game ideas have ended up coming from modded games. Dota and later League originally came from WC3 modding. PUBG and later Fortnite originally came from ArmA modding (or you could argue that it came from Minecraft modding or whatever). Regardless, whenever someone wants to make something experimental that isn't a 2D pixel platformer or an ASCII roguelike, the best option is to mod an existing game. I think if game studios found a way to monetize modding tools in a respectable way, they could make a lot of money and allow actually good game ideas to come up every once in a while.
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Sep 22, 2019 15:58
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piL posted:Re: tab targeting - Zelda, Dark Souls, EvE and Phantasy Star Online all have tab targeting, just bound to a different key. i never parried so didn't target in any of the dark soulses (i used the other stick to move the camera while i positioned myself). i don't think anyone would have any issue with locking-on if you could also attack while not locked on and it did damage if it struck the enemy. in every MMO i've played you HAVE to lock on in order to cast a spell or attack an enemy. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 16:25
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piL posted:Re: tab targeting - Zelda, Dark Souls, EvE and Phantasy Star Online all have tab targeting, just bound to a different key. When people are complaining about tab targeting, its not the tab they're complaining about. What they really don't like is hotkey combat with everything on set Global Cooldowns. That's the model that EQ used that almost all MMOs use, because it was extremely latency tolerant. You take an action, and then there's some minimum of like 2-4 seconds where you can't act again. Its really turn-based combat with automatic turns set by ticks. Its much more of a strategy game than an action game. Its closer to Final Fantasy than it is to Diablo. Planetside 2 on the other hand has no such global cooldowns and is just a free action game with twitch skills mattering much more. That's what people are asking for in an MMO. Less cooldown hotkeys, more reaction combat. So no, Zelda and Dark Souls don't count. No GCD. PSO on the other hand basically is tab combat with GCD cooldowns, yes. PSO is basically WoW except you have to actually make contact with your melee attacks or they miss automatically. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 18:09
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