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ILL Machina posted:Yea, the resource scarcity is more interesting than everyone having items that give you gold for random reasons and free regen in the jungle. They seem aware enough of the issue to try and remedy it by implementing a Support MMR system, so hopefully the next big patch takes similar strides except in-game
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Sep 18, 2019 05:07
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My best guess is a hat or something.
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Sep 18, 2019 05:32
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My pie in the sky is to remove the false choices of courier and 1 ward and just autosupply those. They cut into a good 20ish% of the only gold that support will see for ten minutes. I genuinely liked the auto upgrade change, seems like the auto purchase isn't much further of a stretch. But then again they've made other shop changes semi-recently and maybe it does need to be something less in-game so supports don't just have two minutes of slightly more strength from a circlet or one extra tango or whatever.
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Sep 18, 2019 09:08
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Glory to Italia!
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One weird inconsistency is that they don't let you buy more than one courier anymore, but someone still has to buy it in the first place. I really cant figure out why they even changed that, was bottle crowing really that strong, or were they just embarrassed that the auto deliver hotkey always grabbed the first courier and not the first idle courier?
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Sep 18, 2019 10:14
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Larry Parrish posted:One weird inconsistency is that they don't let you buy more than one courier anymore, but someone still has to buy it in the first place. I really cant figure out why they even changed that, was bottle crowing really that strong, or were they just embarrassed that the auto deliver hotkey always grabbed the first courier and not the first idle courier? *Looks at the billion nerfs to bottle crowing over the years* "We might never know for sure". I think Valve just felt like courier micro wasn't fun or interesting and nipped it in the bud and I can't really disagree.
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Sep 18, 2019 10:37
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Courier should just be auto supplied, no team ever has a benefit from not buying it especially since the cost reduction, it should never not be bought, there's no strategy there so just give it to each team, the only time it's a factor is if people are being pissy about support and refusing to buy starting items.
jarlywarly fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 12:31
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But then how will they sell courier hats if the game just randomly chooses the skin from 1 of the 5 teammates?
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Sep 18, 2019 12:32
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Sab669 posted:But then how will they sell courier hats if the game just randomly chooses the skin from 1 of the 5 teammates? most expensive courier set wins...
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Sep 18, 2019 12:41
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Cuntellectual posted:I mean, I main 4 and 5 and I don't agree with that.  (I don't play league so I snipped that part out)jarlywarly posted:Courier should just be auto supplied, no team ever has a benefit from not buying it especially since the cost reduction, it should never not be bought, there's no strategy there so just give it to each team, the only time it's a factor is if people are being pissy about support and refusing to buy starting items. I don't even disagree much, but the same argument could be made for wards, dust, TP scrolls and so on.
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Sep 18, 2019 14:47
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Xarn posted:I don't even disagree much, but the same argument could be made for wards, dust, TP scrolls and so on. The difference is that you only buy 1 courier. You buy lots of those consumables, though.
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Sep 18, 2019 14:49
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I personally don't think spending money on couriers or wards and whatnot matter that much in terms of wanting to play support. It's just a matter of being able to control the outcome of the game. A 5 pos can destroy multiple lanes and dominate the first 15 minutes of a game but it often it just means a small tower and gold advantage for your side. If you give a core free farm and stack multiple camps for him and the dude still jumps into 4 people without a bkb 20 minutes in then you feel just insanely useless. Maybe the changes to the role mmr helps that a bit hopefully.
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Sep 18, 2019 15:19
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Xarn posted:
Not really, they are all strategic game affecting items you buy multiple times based on circumstance instead of buying other items eg forgoing boots for early wards, dust for anti invis over getting a force staff. Courier is a bought item you are never not going to buy. Someone could come up with a meta that forgoes these items for others which is essentially the carry/support "meta" which is basically just programmed into the balance now.
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Sep 18, 2019 15:27
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Larry Parrish posted:One weird inconsistency is that they don't let you buy more than one courier anymore, but someone still has to buy it in the first place. I really cant figure out why they even changed that, was bottle crowing really that strong, or were they just embarrassed that the auto deliver hotkey always grabbed the first courier and not the first idle courier? It was because particularly committed feeders would buy 50 couriers and march them at the enemy, which would result in them receiving 10 billion gold. Of course what you can do now is just buy the courier, sell it right before the end of the strategy phase and rebuy it in game so it ends up in your inventory, then go hide it in the woods or give it to the other team so your team can never have a courier. That's a lot funnier because it takes your team like 25 minutes to figure out what's going on and they'll be screaming at your 5 about not having a courier the whole time, and if no one sees you do it they won't report you.
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Sep 18, 2019 17:54
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Sab669 posted:But then how will they sell courier hats if the game just randomly chooses the skin from 1 of the 5 teammates? Maybe it's a strategy time vote? For a minute it would change into whoever-called-it-last's
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Sep 18, 2019 21:17
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cock hero flux posted:Of course what you can do now is just buy the courier, sell it right before the end of the strategy phase and rebuy it in game so it ends up in your inventory, then go hide it in the woods or give it to the other team so your team can never have a courier. That's a lot funnier because it takes your team like 25 minutes to figure out what's going on and they'll be screaming at your 5 about not having a courier the whole time, and if no one sees you do it they won't report you. Don't know why I never thought of this... TEAM: "wtf where's crow?" ME: "wow yah wtf, must be a bug" Then again, you have to buy it twice and they'll probably catch on and you'll be the only real suspect.
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Sep 18, 2019 21:23
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I would say make it so each person sees the courier as whatever one they have equipped but then they can't make other players feel jealous when they see a really cool one Also yeah League has wards be essentially free and auto-supplied on a cooldown and that's 100% the way to do it. Make observers free and cooldown-based but you have to actually walk back to base to get them and the courier can't ship them out.Sentries stay the same. I think this would make for some really interesting strategic decisions that haven't been done before, in terms of deciding who is able to go get wards and when and where they'll put them
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Sep 19, 2019 03:02
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Making supports waste their time walking to or from the base sounds terrible.
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Sep 19, 2019 03:18
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ILL Machina posted:Don't know why I never thought of this... funniest outcome I had was from giving the courier to the Luna on the other team. At like 25 minutes, after my teammates figured it out and complained about it in all chat for 15 minutes, Luna told them to come to the top rune spot for "hostage negotiations". Turns out the enemy Techies had a fuckload of green mines waiting there, and he got a triple kill when they showed up. It was the most worth it Low Prio I've ever gotten.
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Sep 19, 2019 03:30
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Sab669 posted:But then how will they sell courier hats if the game just randomly chooses the skin from 1 of the 5 teammates? For a while they had it so that the courier would switch to the skin of whoever was getting items delivered, which owned.
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Sep 19, 2019 05:17
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I'm still fairly new, but wards/sentries seem fine. Buying them is an economic choice, which has pros and cons. The courier should be free; you've got to buy it, and not buying it puts you at a enormous disadvantage until you buy it for 50g. I don't think an extra branch, clarity, whatever would even impact the game that much. I find late game a little frustrating on support. Either you're close enough to cast spells and you explode when a pos1-2 even looks at you, or you're playing far back and you can't really be effectual. I understand that's part of positioning, but disruptor, lich and crystal maiden feel particularly weak if your game is going to 45m+. Particularly against anyone with a gap closer. The skins problem can be solved by just letting the hard support pick the skin from their own collection, or maybe from anyone on the team. Or rotating based on who called the courier. Also, FruitNYogurtParfait, I'm 1300 now, so you can @ me, but be nice 
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Sep 19, 2019 05:30
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:I would say make it so each person sees the courier as whatever one they have equipped but then they can't make other players feel jealous when they see a really cool one I actually still get people regularly complimenting me for my Amaterasu courier and it validates my existence :mmsmith: RazzleDazzleHour posted:Make observers free and cooldown-based but you have to actually walk back to base to get them and the courier can't ship them out.Sentries stay the same. I think this would make for some really interesting strategic decisions that haven't been done before, in terms of deciding who is able to go get wards and when and where they'll put them Consider that good supports semi regularly suicide to towers to reduce the time they waste walking back to base, and that that is the point where their time is least valuable, and reconsider that. cock hero flux posted:funniest outcome I had was from giving the courier to the Luna on the other team. At like 25 minutes, after my teammates figured it out and complained about it in all chat for 15 minutes, Luna told them to come to the top rune spot for "hostage negotiations". Turns out the enemy Techies had a fuckload of green mines waiting there, and he got a triple kill when they showed up. It was the most worth it Low Prio I've ever gotten. You spent more than 25 minutes doing this? Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 05:58
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DisgracelandUSA posted:disruptor, lich and crystal maiden feel particularly weak if your game is going to 45m+. Particularly against anyone with a gap closer. If it feels weak then it's probably because you didn't do enough in the mid/early game. Lich and disruptor aren't very good supports in this meta, but CM can be very good and very cool at all stages of the game providing you can keep up aggression on the offlaner during laning and frosting big creeps in the jungle when he's missing. I kinda wanna try a diffusal with the 250 attack speed talent with her sometime.
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Sep 19, 2019 06:08
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Cuntellectual posted:
in terms of actual effort it literally took 10 seconds, I meant 25 minutes after the game started
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Sep 19, 2019 06:10
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Lady Galaga posted:If it feels weak then it's probably because you didn't do enough in the mid/early game. Lich and disruptor aren't very good supports in this meta, but CM can be very good and very cool at all stages of the game providing you can keep up aggression on the offlaner during laning and frosting big creeps in the jungle when he's missing. I kinda wanna try a diffusal with the 250 attack speed talent with her sometime. Yeah, I definitely like crystal maiden after 25 games with her, and I even won a game by going attack speed + desolator when we didn't have a tower taker. But if the game is close, you just get instantly blown up by everything from earth shaker to anti mage of you don't glimmer cape / force staff in time or they have detection or another gap closer, etc. I also like rubick a lot, but he's hard to play and everyone always expects supports to pick before there are any good abilities to steal.
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Sep 19, 2019 07:03
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smh if you dont got moogle wards and okami courier
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Sep 19, 2019 07:15
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The game dota 2 is hot garbage unless you're playing with competent people who only seem to reside in the top 5 percent as the skill level is just so drat high. Playing carry means watching your support leech xp, ruin lane equilibrium or feed the offlane while playing support is an exercise in frustration as all your hard efforts get pissed up the wall in the mid game as you watch your one position bf jugg hit neutrals and take all the safe farm on the map that the mid needed when they get kicked out of lane at 7 mins in from roamers. It doesn't mean you can't have fun in dota but I feel like even if all consumables were free and mm was perfect and whatever other complaints come up it still wouldn't fix the fact that this game is so heavily reliant on 4 other people and if they're bad you're gonna have a bad time.
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Sep 19, 2019 10:43
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EE is an rear end in a top hat turbo sperg but I remember him saying if he wasnt able to play competitively or in the top 1 percent of players he'd probably quit and play a game far more fun than dota and I think he's totally on the right track
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Sep 19, 2019 10:45
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Lady Galaga posted:If it feels weak then it's probably because you didn't do enough in the mid/early game. Lich and disruptor aren't very good supports in this meta, but CM can be very good and very cool at all stages of the game providing you can keep up aggression on the offlaner during laning and frosting big creeps in the jungle when he's missing. I kinda wanna try a diffusal with the 250 attack speed talent with her sometime. I main supported with Lich for a while, he feels real bad at the moment, you just do nothing after 10 mins. Most of my games are with a 4 stack at around Legend/Divine mark and I've switched to Ogre or Shaman now. I think they need to rethink the skills they gave him when they removed sacrifice.
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Sep 19, 2019 11:47
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Lich is extremely strong in the laning phase with the new frost armor and an aggressive melee lane partner, but drops of pretty hard after that. Crystal maiden on the other hand is my go-to support bae. Max aura to trick your team mates into thinking you're a hard support, then buy as few wards as possible as you build bkb/blink/aghs. Jump into the middle of every team fight and show everyone your rear end in a top hat. I've turned games around with clutch CM ults from uphill cliffs, trees, or otherwise advantageous positions. I guess you can build actual support items too, theoretically.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:51
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Brown Boots / Bracer / Wand or you're doing it wrong.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:40
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Bracers got nerfed like four patches in a row and are still super good, basilius is also kinda nuts for the price.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:22
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Arzachel posted:Bracers got nerfed like four patches in a row and are still super good, basilius is also kinda nuts for the price. a tale as old as time
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Sep 19, 2019 22:42
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The problem with support is laning is too easy now. Between shrines, shekels, free TPs, and comeback gold, it feels like there’s low impact for zoning and ganking in the early game. Especially against the offlane. I don’t think the solution is to remove all of those, as shrines and runes add interesting things to do on the map. Tone down bonus resources from ending kill streaks, and get rid of every single gold or XP gain talent is what I’m trying to say.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:44
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all i want for Christmas is for rubick to have that worthless fade bolt damage reduction talent removed and replaced with a gpm one. Playing position 4/5 rubick without a blink or aghs just suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks
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Sep 20, 2019 03:56
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Why would you ever need a gpm talent as rubick
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Sep 20, 2019 04:11
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causticBeet posted:The problem with support is laning is too easy now. Between shrines, shekels, free TPs, and comeback gold, it feels like there’s low impact for zoning and ganking in the early game. Especially against the offlane. Yeah if you lane amazingly but let the other side jungle all of mid game instead of snowballing on kills then the early game is basically pointless
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Sep 20, 2019 04:18
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causticBeet posted:The problem with support is laning is too easy now. Between shrines, shekels, free TPs, and comeback gold, it feels like there’s low impact for zoning and ganking in the early game. Especially against the offlane. 9/10 of my games are won/lost in the laning phase because one team has a support actually supporting and the other team has their support running around leeching exp then abandoning the lane he leeched from and ruining everyone's lane. The game is almost all about what the supports are doing. Or if some idiot picks Alchemist or CK. Those heroes are so dumb.
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Sep 20, 2019 04:43
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causticBeet posted:The problem with support is laning is too easy now. Between shrines, shekels, free TPs, and comeback gold, it feels like there’s low impact for zoning and ganking in the early game. Especially against the offlane. I think this is actually the opposite problem and hard carry is now the absolute hardest role to play because offlaners are so loving strong and huge that if you don't know how to play comeback or pick a bad hero you're gonna lose the game for your team. Think about the first game of TI where the offlane Ogre Magi totally rolled over their lane and made it so that a draft a million times worse was able to almost win until the Liquid, who were 1000% a better team than Alliance, were able to pull off a comeback at the 60 minute mark. Imagine if you replace their safelaner with some random pubbie and how he would have gotten mad he died three times and sold all his items at the six minute mark this is why I said support sucks now - the 4 role rules because you pick a zoning hero and just fight all game, but the person whose job it is to never get gold or EXP is basically just a babysitter who can't babysit against the other team's 3/4 who are way stronger than you
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Sep 20, 2019 04:44
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On the other hand, Warlock is a pretty fantastic 5 right now.
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Sep 20, 2019 05:37
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Cuntellectual posted:On the other hand, Warlock is a pretty fantastic 5 right now. I love warlock but if I drop rocks and my team can't capitalize, I don't even know what to do with my life. Like God, what did I do to deserve this. What's everyone's warlock build? Rush Midas? Rush aghs? Pure support? JollyPubJerk posted:
Funny story, my friend, who I play most of my games with, has been having decent success as p5 CK in babbbby 3k mmr bracket.
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Sep 20, 2019 06:16
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