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Right. Warhammer draws from all of those wells (mythology, generic fantasy, making up it's own stuff) and at it's core the setting is based around armies mashing into each other. It makes it hard to imagine another fantasy setting being as successful or interesting.
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Sep 19, 2019 20:29
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Arcsquad12 posted:Again, tell me what would differentiate a mythological total war from Warhammer apart from the art style? What would a Greek mythology Minotaur do that a beastman Minotaur doesn't already do? Well, for one thing, there is only one mythological Minotaur, not entire armies full of them. The only hydra is the Lernean Hydra, which is semi-divine (the child of Typhon and Echidna, both Titans). Most mythological monsters are unique entities, not generic creatures you can breed more of, and they're mostly divine, semi-divine, or caused by divine curses. They also generally are not controlled by anyone, they're more forces of nature. And, again, mythological heroes are a lot less powerful than Warhammer heroes. Odysseus can't outfight a unit of Spartan soldiers or go mano-a-mano with the Hydra, and he can't call down lightning and fire from the sky to destroy armies. Honestly, it's easier to say how the games would be the same than how they would be different. They would both be running some form of Total War engine. That's about where the similarities end.
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Sep 19, 2019 20:45
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I was hoping for more of a broader Bronze Age game, but can't really complain about a game called Troy being focused on the Trojan War.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:04
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I feel like Warhammer as "generic fantasy" is really only applicable to british people born within a certain time frame. Warhammer is Warhammer, it is not at all generic. Like I'm a citizen of France and of the USA, and do you really think any of my family dream of Malekith or Louen when they imagine "my home, but fantasy version?" Do you think that Bretonnia is what would emerge if you asked 80s nerds from France to make a parody of France? Do you think the elves would be the same if it was americans from 2019 ripping off Tolkien?
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Sep 19, 2019 21:06
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I was hoping for more fantasy because I'd like to go to war as the Amazons, since that's not happening in Warhammer. Though with their approach I doubt it will happen here. The female bandit leader in 3K is nice, but I want my all woman faction drat it. 
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Sep 19, 2019 21:20
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You guys are right, they should give up on regular fantasy and start working on Warhammer 40k.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:43
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Dramicus posted:You guys are right, they should give up on regular fantasy and start working on Warhammer 40k. You know they have to be thinking about it. Probably wise of them to exhaust everything they can sell for Fantasy first though.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:38
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Captain Beans posted:You know they have to be thinking about it. Probably wise of them to exhaust everything they can sell for Fantasy first though. By regular fantasy, I meant generic fantasy that isn't Warhammer. I know 40k is probably never going to happen, but with how successful WHFB was, I'd bet there's a good chance we might see an Age of Sigmar game after TW:WH3. They would be able to re-use 90% of the stuff they made for Total War Warhammer, and add just a couple new factions and have an entirely new game to sell. They could also do pretty much whatever the gently caress they wanted with the map, considering how Age of Sigmar takes place on an ever-shifting plane of existence. It could even be the first time we might see a random campaign map generator for a Total War game.
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Sep 20, 2019 00:27
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Considering Age of Sigmar was made to be more like 40k, it’s more likely we’ll just get 40k. And that’s to say, very unlikely.
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Sep 20, 2019 01:55
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Considering Age of Sigmar was made to be more like 40k, it’s more likely we’ll just get 40k. And that’s to say, very unlikely. It's more like 40k in the sense that there are space marines. But it's still mostly guys bashing each other with sharp objects. 40k would be pretty complex to do well considering it's trying to emulate modern warfare to a certain extent.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:05
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I don't think it's really possible to do a Total War game in an era without mass formations. I mean, there are plenty of wargames set in the modern era, but with the gameplay changes you'd need to make, it wouldn't be a TW game any more. Not to mention, TW games all have the conceit of two armies meeting in a field and have a decisive engagement on a single day, rather than continuous front-lines and long campaigns.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:22
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Arcsquad12 posted:The issue with making another fantasy game is that you need to ask the question: what makes this fantasy total war game worth playing when Warhammer already exists? The thing that Total Warhammer could really do with is a map the modders could edit - although there hasn't been one of those since Medieval 2 as far as I'm aware. And to agree, Warhammer is the only fantasy setting that I'm aware of that's based round large unit military action. Also with a more than 30 year history with dozens of authors contributing, in some ways it's richer, and more varied than anything that could have been created by a single author. I don't remotely mean to imply that the Warhammer authors are better than JRRT or GRRM and they certainly don't tell better stories - but when it comes to variety quantity really does have a quality all of its own and even someone like Matt Ward adds something to the richness of the setting. To be something to rival Warhammer it would have to be something mythological with large wars and that had developed over centuries (which means that Age of Mythology might work - but no modern fantasy setting would). As for the Trojan War cycle not having much in the way of monsters - possibly, but Homer also has the Odyssey attributed to him as a direct continuation. With cyclops, sirens, Circe, et al.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:29
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There actually is another setting that I can think of that also has large military action be a part of it's core: Glorantha, which started out as a tabletop wargame (not a models game, a board game) and has a lot of very odd roots shared with warhammer (the beastmen were originally made in order to re-purpose models they made for glorantha). Although a glorantha total war would be very, very strange. It even goes into how the nature of the world affects military formations and large-scale warfare and some of the things would make for... interesting scenarios. Like always having to cart around a group of nine exceedingly old people who do nothing directly but if harmed cause your entire army to instantly collapse. Or the moon cycle, which directly powers the advance of the lunar army and it's magic and is in canon actually spread forward by a building that would directly translate to total war as a buildable temple.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:58
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There's always Warmachine / Hordes 
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Sep 20, 2019 05:33
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ca's gonna need to go bonkers with unit design in the Trojan war game or else it's gonna be hoplites rubbing against each other for 150 turns
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Sep 20, 2019 05:59
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I don't get the "saga" thing. The Greece campaign map looks pretty big, and presumably it will have a decent sized list of units and factions. Why isn't it a "main" total war game?
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Sep 20, 2019 08:31
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Saga projects tend to be a bit more limited in terms of budget and scope (Thrones didn't get DLC, for instance; Fall of the Samurai had all its DLC bundled with the base game). The more focused aspect of Saga titles so far has also meant less unique rosters and/or less variety in cultural groups. I'd assume most factions in Troy will be greek and I wouldn't hold out for non-blood DLC.
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Sep 20, 2019 08:50
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Zurai posted:Generic fantasy doesn't have orcs who grow from spores or steam tanks. And those are just old world. With the same logic, generic fantasy doesn't end with heroes coming back home after defeating an evil overlord and finding their home corrupted by robber barons and industrialization. But it's the end of Lord of the Rings, the ur example of the genre. Warhammer may have some deep lore but it went out of its way to include every fantasy trope under the sun. Non-generic fantasy mostly uses its own ideas instead of repurposing Elves, Dwarves, and Dragons. In that regard, it's very similar to the Might & Magic world. M&M has artificial sci-fi worlds, robots, and blasters but at the same time, it includes every fantasy creature there is. Heroes games were popular when they were kitchen sink fantasy (up until Heroes 6 or maybe Heroes 5 expansions) so that in your mind you could play as if it's LotR or Conan or whatever else fantasy world. ilitarist fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 10:20
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Again I will push for Glorantha because it's pretty much the only setting I can think of with a base for interesting, varied rosters for factions. Their most "normal" one would probably be Sartar, who has celtic/german style militia with spears backed up by lightning-throwing heroes, slingers whose stones explode like grenades, a substantial number of troops that can actually fly and raincallers that can call down storms that cause people to melt, among other things. Then you have the more out-there ones like the Lunar empire, who have a professional core of a sort of roman-persian-assyrian style heavy infantry with a professional college of magic and a strong arm of absolutely horrific chaos monstrosities, their most commonly used one being a gigantic bat covered in eyes that has to eat people every day or it will go berserk. They use it to keep order in the provinces. Even something like the obligatory cavalry faction would be interesting, as grazelanders or pentians can make their horses jump like gazelles or fight like lions. Seriously, imagine facing cavalry that charges your line, only to jump over it and strike you from the flank and back instead. Cavalry shenanigans would be amazing with the praxians, who are exclusively mounted, riding every kind of beast except for horses. You have antelope riders, bison riders, even unicorn and rhinoceros riders, not to mention Morokanth, which are sapient tapirs that herd devolved humans, which carry them around on litters. It's pretty much the only thing I can think of for matching warhammer in terms of sheer shenanigans in it's warfare.
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Sep 20, 2019 12:06
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ilitarist posted:With the same logic, generic fantasy doesn't end with heroes coming back home after defeating an evil overlord and finding their home corrupted by robber barons and industrialization. But it's the end of Lord of the Rings, the ur example of the genre. I like Tolkien too but Warhammer is very obviously Warhammer. It isn't "kitchen sink fantasy" and has very distinct and obvious flavour to anyone who isn't a british nerd who grew up in the 80s and 90s. And hell, robber barons in the sense of industrialists are distinctly american and Tolkien was 100% absolutely not writing about them.
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Sep 20, 2019 12:13
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I would absolutely love glorantha total war, me and all the other five of us
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Sep 20, 2019 12:22
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I am very far from being British or American so I may be missing nuance, but to me, it looked like a story about Dickens evil industrialist invading pastoral fantasy land. And Warhammer's "dark" flavor isn't that unusual, it's just it takes note of plenty of other sources like Conan or maybe even Cthulhu Mythos. That's why it's a kitchen sink. It has everything from the checklist, just like Warcraft world, or Forgotten Realms or all that other franchises with deep lore, huge backstory and a great amount of work put into the process of making all of them familiar and indistinguishable from each other till you read a book or two. Edit: I probably should be clearer in what I mean by generic nature. I consider it generic if the art deliberately incorporates familiar tropes of the genre. It's still generic spy novel if it's about a suave spy in cold war using gadgets and winning over ladies even if it turns out that there are aliens manipulating USSR and USA. If we call something non-generic just because it has unusual and original elements than the only generic art piece would be the first one in the genre, and I mentioned LotR just to remind that it has a lot of what you wouldn't consider generic fantasy elements. ilitarist fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 12:25
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Hentai Jihadist posted:I would absolutely love glorantha total war, me and all the other five of us Same! It'd be amazing.
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Sep 20, 2019 12:36
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Hentai Jihadist posted:I would absolutely love glorantha total war, me and all the other five of us I’m down to lead Immortal Ironhoof and his legion of ducks to war 
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Sep 20, 2019 12:47
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I wish frigging six ages or whatever would come out on pc faster. I remember back when it launched on ios only (eww!) the release date was 2019 and that seemed like a longass wait back then. Now its nearly october!
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Sep 20, 2019 14:00
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Krazyface posted:I don't think it's really possible to do a Total War game in an era without mass formations. I mean, there are plenty of wargames set in the modern era, but with the gameplay changes you'd need to make, it wouldn't be a TW game any more. Not to mention, TW games all have the conceit of two armies meeting in a field and have a decisive engagement on a single day, rather than continuous front-lines and long campaigns. The people who should do 40k are Eugen studios but that’s a weird developer with terrible labour relations that always feels one bad day away from insolvency.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:10
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Beefeater1980 posted:The people who should do 40k are Eugen studios but that’s a weird developer with terrible labour relations that always feels one bad day away from insolvency. To be fair, this describes pretty much all the developers of 40k games.
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Sep 20, 2019 16:08
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Still mad at Relic for the nonsense that was Dawn of War 3. All of their other 40K games are great in their own way (DOW 1 and 2 are equally good for different reasons, fite me) but then they went in a weird as hell direction for Dow3 where they based all of their multiplayer maps on MOBA style lane maps, got rid of the mountain of game modes the first game had, and made it impossible to read the battlefield by throwing the particle effects into overdrive while also turning unit survivability to zero. And they only brought back ONE of the original voice actors, who was relegated to doing background voices.
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Sep 20, 2019 18:14
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Relic has gone in a weird direction for everything after DoW2, pretty much everything they have done has been a failure recently. Unfortunately I have almost zero faith in their ability to handle the next Age of Empires well. At this point, sad as it is, I almost want them to go under so that maybe another company (CA) might get a crack at 40k.
Dramicus fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 19:17
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I don't think total war or CA makes sense for a 40k game at all really. Id still buy it though
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Sep 20, 2019 19:28
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I think CA/TW makes sense for 40K only if they go for Apocalypse rules. What we're used to in terms of Tabletop or DoW was done best by, well, DoW. Scaling things up to Apocalypse at least starts to allow for the kinds of numbers TW tends to go with in terms of army size. Even then I'm not really sure CA could pull it off, it'd be waaay out of their comfort zone and they've been recycling code for like, what, about a dozen iterations so far? I seem to remember someone saying TWW's corruption mechanics were just reskinned religion code from previous games.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:22
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Dramicus posted:Relic has gone in a weird direction for everything after DoW2, pretty much everything they have done has been a failure recently. Unfortunately I have almost zero faith in their ability to handle the next Age of Empires well. At this point, sad as it is, I almost want them to go under so that maybe another company (CA) might get a crack at 40k. The team that made Homeworld went on to make Dawn of War, Dawn of War 2, Homeworld 2 and Company of Heroes. By the time Company of heroes 2 rolled out they had all mostly all left. It's always important to look at the names of who makes what. Game companies currently have a habit of working their employees to the bone and they eventually gently caress off to perceived greener pastures until the cycle repeats.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:23
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I though people generally thought positively of CoH2? Or at least of Ardennes Assault?
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Sep 20, 2019 20:38
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They enjoyed Ardennes Assault but they were really critical of the base game for having a ludicrous depiction of the Soviets and only having two playable factions. Also it was buggy.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:40
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KazigluBey posted:I think CA/TW makes sense for 40K only if they go for Apocalypse rules. What we're used to in terms of Tabletop or DoW was done best by, well, DoW. Scaling things up to Apocalypse at least starts to allow for the kinds of numbers TW tends to go with in terms of army size. Even then I'm not really sure CA could pull it off, it'd be waaay out of their comfort zone and they've been recycling code for like, what, about a dozen iterations so far? I seem to remember someone saying TWW's corruption mechanics were just reskinned religion code from previous games. Yeah, corruption appears as religion in the code. There's also character age in the code, which was the reason Mixu couldn't assign his custom lords to offices at first - custom lords started at age 0 and they had to be 18 years old or older to be placed in an office.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:48
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StarMinstrel posted:The team that made Homeworld went on to make Dawn of War, Dawn of War 2, Homeworld 2 and Company of Heroes. By the time Company of heroes 2 rolled out they had all mostly all left. It's always important to look at the names of who makes what. Game companies currently have a habit of working their employees to the bone and they eventually gently caress off to perceived greener pastures until the cycle repeats. Relic also had some enormous layoff, I think around the time Dawn of War 2's second expansion came out. CoH2 has some strengths but it has a super different feeling to me compared to their older games, and I always assumed that was why. Also yeah Age of Empires is my favorite franchise but I'm extremely not hyped for whatever's coming. I can't imagine a game like the originals coming out in this day and age really (by a major dev), they were just a very different sorta thing.
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Sep 21, 2019 03:46
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Anno posted:I though people generally thought positively of CoH2? Or at least of Ardennes Assault? It’s pretty good now but on release it was basically just a shittier version of coh1.
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Sep 21, 2019 04:09
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Eimi posted:I was hoping for more fantasy because I'd like to go to war as the Amazons, since that's not happening in Warhammer. Though with their approach I doubt it will happen here. The female bandit leader in 3K is nice, but I want my all woman faction drat it. If you want some fun fempower pick Bella in the ME campaign and use only the Lahmian generals and vamp hubby. Then all your troops are literally you and your vamp GFs and all y’alls slaves. Only bring vamp hubby along to open the doors so you and your gurls can wreck the town 
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Sep 21, 2019 20:30
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Beefeater1980 posted:The people who should do 40k are Eugen studios but that’s a weird developer with terrible labour relations that always feels one bad day away from insolvency. The Wargame engine was/is the best 40k engine - it had modernish ground combat, cover and building mechanics, spotting, and aerospace / airmobile capability. Buuuut Eugen studios isn't the best company around....
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Sep 21, 2019 22:04
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How come noone suggested "Dominions" world as a TW setting yet? It might be a "tad" hard to balance though..
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Sep 26, 2019 15:13
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