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You do realize that the missile programs are a recent thing right? And that this has been the official American policy ever since the trusteeship?
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Sep 17, 2019 01:25
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The US has de facto recognized North Korean sovereignty for a very long time and it seems to be grasping at straws to claim that the lack of official de jure recognition is the sole driving force behind North Korea's foreign policy, like all that they want is for some magic words to be uttered and then they'll change their behavior.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:31
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Actually that's the exact opposite of what I wrote. You should maybe try to work on your reading comprehension.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:39
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Some Guy TT posted:You do realize that the missile programs are a recent thing right? And that this has been the official American policy ever since the trusteeship? They recently rolled back any progress that'd taken place up to about 2005 yeah. Because the idiot monarchy doesn't care about peace.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:39
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So when’s the war going to end and what will Korea look like afterwards?
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Sep 17, 2019 04:07
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Some Guy TT posted:Actually fishmech's position is the same one held by the United States government both then and now. Our unwillingness to acknowledge that the North Korean government actually exists is the main reason we have a permanent standoff. Fojar38 posted:The US has de facto recognized North Korean sovereignty for a very long time and it seems to be grasping at straws to claim that the lack of official de jure recognition is the sole driving force behind North Korea's foreign policy, like all that they want is for some magic words to be uttered and then they'll change their behavior. Some Guy TT posted:Actually that's the exact opposite of what I wrote. You should maybe try to work on your reading comprehension. Yeah, no, it's not reading comprehension, you're just not expressing yourself cogently. Some Guy TT posted:I am curious about something though fishmech. You admit that Kim Sung-il was forcing the South Korean government out of power at gunpoint and you also concede, I presume, that Kim Sung-il and his supporters were Korean. So wouldn't it be most accurate to describe the Korean War in that case as a civil war? More than one polity can exist governing people of the same nationality. In fact, that's how it's been through most of history. I guess you can arbitrarily redefine dozens of wars as "civil wars," but I don't know where you're going with that.
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Sep 17, 2019 17:09
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I'm in favor of fishmech being forced to live there so we don't have to read his posts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 17, 2019 18:59
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HorseLord posted:I'm in favor of fishmech being forced to live there so we don't have to read his posts. Cool, misgendering me because you're upset about your favorite monarchy!
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Sep 17, 2019 20:15
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Classic fishmech.
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Sep 17, 2019 21:08
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Norton the First posted:Yeah, no, it's not reading comprehension, you're just not expressing yourself cogently. Permanent standoff = foreign policy situation that's only existed for the last fifteen years. Do you know what the word permanent means? Fishmech is very obviously trying to change the subject. Apparently that works on some rubes. Norton the First posted:More than one polity can exist governing people of the same nationality. In fact, that's how it's been through most of history. I guess you can arbitrarily redefine dozens of wars as "civil wars," but I don't know where you're going with that. The entire source of this discussion is fishmech's assertion which the United States government agrees with that the North Korean polity doesn't actually exist. You literally just quoted the post I made that repeats this. Are you pretending to be too stupid to understand my posts because you think it makes you look smart somehow or are you actually this stupid?
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Sep 18, 2019 00:44
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You are genuinely terrible at expressing yourself in any sort of coherent manner.
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Sep 18, 2019 02:11
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Norton the First posted:You are genuinely terrible at expressing yourself in any sort of coherent manner. Probably because defending North Korea is necessarily incoherent? There's simply nothing that holds up, outside of genuine support for switching from a rather functional form of socialism to a useless monarchy over the past 30 years.
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Sep 18, 2019 02:21
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I think it's important to remember that fishmech has never made a sincere post in the last decade and a half. The entire gimmick is to be deliberately and creatively obtuse so as to frustrate the correspondent. "pretending to be too stupid to understand your posts" is a pretty good way of putting it.
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Sep 18, 2019 02:26
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HorseLord posted:I think it's important to remember that fishmech has never made a sincere post in the last decade and a half. The entire gimmick is to be deliberately and creatively obtuse so as to frustrate the correspondent. "pretending to be too stupid to understand your posts" is a pretty good way of putting it. Fishmech basically just exists to willfully misinterpret posts to mean something entirely different then what was the intent. And no amount of attempting to clarify your meaning will ever get a good faith argument out of fishmech, just put them on your ignore list. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 02:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:Fishmech basically just exists to willfully misinterpret posts to mean something entirely different then what was the intent. And no amount of attempting to clarify your meaning will ever get a good faith argument out of fishmech, just put him on your ignore list. Fishmech just reminded everybody a few posts ago that she's female... Edit: I just realized that you wouldn't have seen that, because she's presumably on your ignore list. Lol.
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Sep 18, 2019 03:19
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fishmech is a woman by the way.
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Sep 18, 2019 03:19
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fishmech posted:Probably because defending North Korea is necessarily incoherent? There's simply nothing that holds up, outside of genuine support for switching from a rather functional form of socialism to a useless monarchy over the past 30 years. Amusingly enough I have not actually defended North Korea so far in this entire discussion.
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Sep 18, 2019 04:21
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HorseLord posted:I think it's important to remember that fishmech has never made a sincere post in the last decade and a half. The entire gimmick is to be deliberately and creatively obtuse so as to frustrate the correspondent. "pretending to be too stupid to understand your posts" is a pretty good way of putting it. I think it's important to remember that you are trying and failing to defend a monarchy with no interest in the welfare of its own people. Rather like your home country, come to think of it.
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Sep 18, 2019 04:54
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Neither has Horse Lord.
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Sep 18, 2019 05:34
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Apologies to Fishmech for every time I refered to her as a male, I too put her on ignore quite some time ago.
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Sep 18, 2019 06:51
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Some Guy TT posted:Neither has Horse Lord. FishMech is one of those "one lies one tells the truth" puzzles except there's only one and it only lies.
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Sep 18, 2019 16:04
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Holy moly. The Hwaseong killer has been found! https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/south-korea-serial-killer-suspect-identified-33-years-034528539.html This was the first Korean town I lived in and Koreans outside it only had heard of it because of those murders.
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Sep 19, 2019 11:22
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So what does North Korea want because with some of the recent changes and from what I know of North Korean propaganda and ideology discussed in this thread it seems like they're tiptoeing gradually away from being some neostalinist socialist state to some kind of ultranationalist ethnostate that maybe while allows some economic reforms still hard rejects further economic integration with the rest of the world except maybe the other Korea and China.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:15
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North Korea is a feudal monarchy, nothing more complicated than that. The ideology is a way to give the kings a divine right to rule.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:19
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Flayer posted:North Korea is a feudal monarchy, nothing more complicated than that. The ideology is a way to give the kings a divine right to rule. I mean, it's a monarchy, but feudalism really doesn't come into it.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:02
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Feudalism is fundamentally a form of oligarchy and I'd say that North Korea qualifies as feudalist in that sense. It's probably closer to feudalist than an absolute monarchy which is actually a relatively modern construct
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Sep 19, 2019 19:53
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RandomPauI posted:Apologies to Fishmech for every time I refered to her as a male, I too put her on ignore quite some time ago.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:11
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Norton the First posted:I mean, it's a monarchy, but feudalism really doesn't come into it. Raenir Salazar posted:So what does North Korea want because with some of the recent changes and from what I know of North Korean propaganda and ideology discussed in this thread it seems like they're tiptoeing gradually away from being some neostalinist socialist state to some kind of ultranationalist ethnostate that maybe while allows some economic reforms still hard rejects further economic integration with the rest of the world except maybe the other Korea and China. They've been gradually moving away from Communism and economic integration at least since Khrushchev took power. The official ideology has always been a PR campaign that was meant to be seen differently by every faction and movement the regime had to deal with. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 21:21
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Fojar38 posted:Feudalism is fundamentally a form of oligarchy and I'd say that North Korea qualifies as feudalist in that sense. It's probably closer to feudalist than an absolute monarchy which is actually a relatively modern construct That really doesn't make sense, unless there's way more local/regional autonomy than seems apparent at the moment. Feudalism, in as much as it ever existed, is not something with very high centralization of power even though there's a lot of centralization of authority. People often like to joke about feudalism being a time of absolute monarchs, but for the most part being feudal is contradictory to being able to have that level of power. You simply couldn't implement both at once. If anything the Kim monarchy reflects the relative authority of monarchs with much greater power during the 18th to early 20th centuries in Europe.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:41
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Technically, they're transitioning from an ultranationalist totalitarian monarchy to an ultranationalist totalitarian monarchy. There's little sense of a transition from any one thing to another outside of relatively unremarkable rebalances of apparatchik management and acceptance of the presence of jangmadangs and informal black economies. If only just, as far as I know. Everything else, including the termination of juche, is irrelevant to what systems of governance and power were or will be in play, because things like juche were just useless ultranationalist messaging that never realistically identified the constraints or purpose of power in the nation's government.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:11
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fishmech posted:That really doesn't make sense, unless there's way more local/regional autonomy than seems apparent at the moment. Feudalism, in as much as it ever existed, is not something with very high centralization of power even though there's a lot of centralization of authority. People in general have no idea what feudalism was like or how aristocratic power relations worked. Even comparing 17th century absolute monarchies to a modern totalitarian state completly misses the point, because the degree to which the latter can and seeks to exert power over society is so far beyond the capabiltiy and ambition of pre-modern regimes that the comparison is almost meaningless.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:01
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Charlz Guybon posted:Holy moly. The Hwaseong killer has been found! Disappointed but not terribly surprised that the thread would rather have weird technical discussions about whether or not North Korea is a feudalist country than talk about this story. Although I guess it doesn't help that you didn't give anyone the hook that would make them interested in it. This is the Memories of Murder guy.
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Sep 20, 2019 08:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:So what does North Korea want because with some of the recent changes and from what I know of North Korean propaganda and ideology discussed in this thread it seems like they're tiptoeing gradually away from being some neostalinist socialist state to some kind of ultranationalist ethnostate that maybe while allows some economic reforms still hard rejects further economic integration with the rest of the world except maybe the other Korea and China. The easiest way to figure out what the DPRK wants is to look at what the DPRK is doing. From how I see it, they've been consistently following three policies over the last decade: 1) Integrate into the world economy without giving up the capital controls that allow them to maintain a modern (I.E. productive, not extractive) economy. This is why they've invested so much in beautifying Pyongyang and advertising as a tourist destination. It's a way to get foreign money without giving up any control. 2) Create an internal commodities market that is legally accepted by and mediated by the state (so not a black/grey market) without Perestrokiaing it up like Gorbachev and obliterating themselves. This is why they've allowed agricultural communes and farmers to take more of their harvest to market, and why they legalized cooperative firms in urban areas. 3) Demilitarize the Korean Peninsula (in the 'get the Yankees out of South Korea' sense) These are all pretty reasonable goals for a non-liberal state to pursue, the main problem is that they directly conflict with America's goal in the region -- which is basically the liquidation of the North Korean state (and all of the resources and capital it guards from international exploitation). There's rare earth metals in them mountains, after all. Pursuing a nuclear deterrent has given the DPRK (a country with less population and wealth than Texas) the leverage it needs to enter equal negotiations with the USA, and also let them ratchet back the importance of the regular military for domestic defense letting them invest in other ares of the state. And every time the DPRK enters negotiations with the USA and have talks backslide into ultimatums about one-sided denuclearization, they gain credibility with China and Russia (who also border Korea), who are of course having their own issues with the Trump Regime. I'll just straight up advise you to ignore anyone talking about 'feudal monarchy' or 'totalitarian regime'. Beyond any kind of moral evaluation of the North Korean state, these words simply don't mean or explain anything. Kim Jong-un was not raised in a vat under Paektu mountain -- he was educated in Switzerland. And no modern state, no matter how effective the propaganda reifying the leadership is, can actually be lead by a single individual. The DPRK is a non-liberal state that wants to integrate into the world market without losing capital controls, but are simultaneously incredibly at odds with the premiere world economic superpower. That's their position. Scrree fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 13:50
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Scrree posted:I'll just straight up advise you to ignore anyone talking about 'feudal monarchy' or 'totalitarian regime'. Beyond any kind of moral evaluation of the North Korean state, these words simply don't mean or explain anything. Kim Jong-un was not raised in a vat under Paektu mountain -- he was educated in Switzerland. And no modern state, no matter how effective the propaganda reifying the leadership is, can actually be lead by a single individual. One notes that by this standard, describing actually-existed pre-modern monarchies as monarchies is also meaningless.
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Sep 21, 2019 15:49
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Scrree posted:Pursuing a nuclear deterrent has given the DPRK (a country with less population and wealth than Texas) the leverage it needs to enter equal negotiations with the USA This hasn't happened yet, you realize? All they've gotten after over a decade of the renewed nuclear pursuit has been more sanctions and then more recently "negotiations" with a couple of idiots who immediately throw tantrums and start throwing around threats of instant invasion.
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Sep 21, 2019 18:45
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Charlz Guybon posted:Holy moly. The Hwaseong killer has been found! mmkay reading this and what quote:The suspect is currently serving a life sentence for raping and murdering his sister-in-law in 1994, but denies involvement in the Hwaseong murders and the statute of limitations has expired, meaning he will not be prosecuted, police added.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:04
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At the time the murders happened South Korea had a fairly short and not particularly well-known statue of limitations for murders capping out at fifteen years. It's been removed since then but it doesn't go away retroactively since it had already been applied to those cases by the time the law was changed. Cognizance of the statute of limitations was part of what got Memories of Murder made to raise awareness about the case. One of the best arguments for the killer being dead at this point is that he hasn't come forward even though there's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Speaking of gendered assumptions in casual language, do you actually seriously believe that Horse Lord was trying to misgender fishmech? Most of us really don't know or care what fishmech's gender is. Some Guy TT fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 15:00
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Party Plane Jones posted:mmkay reading this and what I can see the logic of it if a statute of limitations is thought of as primarily an evidentiary safeguard, i.e., policymakers might worry about the unreliability of witnesses 15 years after the fact, and worry that finders of fact might not sufficiently understand this unreliability. Obviously when cold cases started being solved with DNA evidence, it became obvious that a statute of limitations on murder was a terrible idea, but I can understand why it might have seemed like a good idea at the time.
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Sep 22, 2019 15:53
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Nearly same deal in Japan. Infamous serial murderer, rapist and cannibal Issei Sagawa would be arrested if he moved to France, but Japan upheld his acquittal on insanity grounds, and now it's too late for a retrial. He spends his time writing restaurant reviews and blogging about how he wants to die by drowning in womens pee.
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Sep 22, 2019 16:47
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Really not sure what to think about the French thinking he's insane but not the Japanese. I wonder if he played up his foreignness for the former.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:40
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