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I appreciate you clarifying about the quota bit, which was ringing some alarm bells regarding TLJ discussion. I don't quite get the thinking behind the idea that you need 15 years to build up up to having a diverse cast, but I can believe that's just me misunderstanding / awkward phrasing.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:29
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I've often heard "well you don't complain about not knowing much about the Empire in ANH so why complain about it here!", which completely ignores the fact that a huge part of the hype for the sequel trilogy was the excitement about being able to see what these same characters have been up to all this time. It leads to this feeling of cognitive dissonance when you watch them.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:I appreciate you clarifying about the quota bit, which was ringing some alarm bells regarding TLJ discussion. I don't quite get the thinking behind the idea that you need 15 years to build up up to having a diverse cast, but I can believe that's just me misunderstanding / awkward phrasing. ok, yeah, that was poorly worded. What I meant was that those Avengers movies were trying to check off a list of things that make a movie a "blockbuster," but even though that made them very criteria-driven audiences were already invested enough in the characters that it still worked for most people. Diversity was not was I was thinking of in that context, though I do consider it one of the studios' criteria. What I would like to see is actual diversity in the production of the movies, i.e. diverse stories told by diverse directors, producers, and casts.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:46
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I loved Kylo Ren right out the gate. I dont need his origins.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:00
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Vintersorg posted:I loved Kylo Ren right out the gate. I dont need his origins. I understand how storytelling sometimes demands that you have a character with a mysterious past, and the fact that we don't know exactly what went down at Luke's school isn't really my complaint. We just don't know anything about anything. The current status quo? Extremely vague. How we got from the end of ROTJ to whatever this current status quo is? Even more vague. Like, I don't need to know about every argument Han and Leia had between ROTJ and TFA but these characters are so directly linked to the world around them that their presence just draws my attention to the fact that I know jack poo poo about what's been going on for the past 25 years.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:05
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It's kind of funny that a film series whose gimmick is starting with literal floating lines of exposition hosed up so badly with setting the scene.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:19
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See, the only way out of this is to break down what exactly is happening. "I remember in theatres when they went to the casino, and Rose says something like "only one thing in the galaxy makes people this rich..." and I remember like, looking around nervously while waiting for Finn to go "(((galactic banking?)))" but instead they went for a criticism of the MIC, which feels like a comically naive take on that universe." The point of the Rose character is that she's a zealot and a bit of a dumbass (again, modeled after young Luke "And I'm Here To Rescue You" Skywalker). There's a careful balance where she needs to be explicitly wrong, but her naiveté is nonetheless inspirational. The film fucks it up, but it is there. Specifically, the scene where Rose crashes into FN to save him is a remix of the scene in Episode 4 where Han appears out of nowhere and saves Luke from Vader. Cynical Han was, of course, inspired by Luke's indefatigable, suicidal devotion to God - but now the roles are reversed. So what we end up with is a sort of subtextual gay romance where Luke saves Han from the darkness inside Han by giving him a big kiss. (Note that, in most early drafts of the film, Rose was literally Poe Dameron). So the idea is that FN is killing himself out of a sort of nihilistic despair while sweet, dumb Rose tries to convince him that God loves him and it's all going to work out in the end. Of course what this amounts to in the end is an endorsement of liberal moderatism, as you note. We acknowledge that the Republic is bad, only minimally different from the Empire, but we nonetheless believe in a gradual progress. You might want to blow up the Death Star, but have you considered that that could make you as bad as they are, according to horseshoe theory? This message is made undeniably clear with Kylo killing the Emperor in the name of radical change, and then just immediately becoming the same Emperor because of unconvincing mommy issues. -There will never be any additional connective tissue between RotJ and TFA -There will never be any exposition about the actual organization of the empire/republic/resistance or anything beyond "they're the rebels 2.0" -We'll never get to see the origin of the first order, why they have such a massive resource advantage, we are just supposed to accept that they're the Big Bad Guys These questions have already been answered, albeit obliquely, with one simple statement: the First Order literally is the Republic. The First Order and the Republicans are political parties within the Galaxy, so all those First Order Star Destroyers are just Republican Star Destroyers with the flags changed. The First Order's origin therefore is the end of Episode 6. The Emperor died, but all those Imperial citizens didn't suddenly vanish. They became Republic citizens, and they started voting against Leia.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:-There will never be any additional connective tissue between RotJ and TFA Is any of this actually explained in the movie though?
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Sep 19, 2019 18:37
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The First Order went from some terrorist group to ruling the galaxy in... 24? 48 hours? However long it took for Finn to wake up from his coma after TFA
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Sep 19, 2019 18:49
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Basebf555 posted:Is any of this actually explained in the movie though? Nobody outright says "the First Order is a political party within the Republic", but it's exactly what's depicted in the movies and none of the exposition in any of the films contradicts it. Like, how did the FO invade the entire Galaxy in a few weeks? Answer: they didn't invade. They were already a widespread populist movement, on hundreds of Republic worlds.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:(Note that, in most early drafts of the film, Rose was literally Poe Dameron).  quote:the First Order literally is the Republic. The First Order and the Republicans are political parties within the Galaxy, so all those First Order Star Destroyers are just Republican Star Destroyers with the flags changed. Prior to the release of TFA I blithely assumed the first order would be some sort of rogue faction or splinter force from the Republic military, not the exact opposite! edit: is it too on the nose to call Leia a wish-fulfillment version of Hillary as a #resistance leader against drumpf? because the more I try to wrap my head around SMG's take the more it comes back to the aura of Hillary, the Rightful president, professional angst in 2017 frest fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 18:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nobody outright says "the First Order is a political party within the Republic", but it's exactly what's depicted in the movies and none of the exposition in any of the films contradicts it. We haven't actually seen the FO operate on any civilized world as an authority though. Just a Nazi rally at their secret volcano lair, and their super ship.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:56
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frest posted:We haven't actually seen the FO operate on any civilized world as an authority though. Just a Nazi rally at their secret volcano lair, and their super ship. Yeah I have to echo this sentiment, everything feels very isolated and small compared to the PT and OT.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:00
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frest posted:We haven't actually seen the FO operate on any civilized world as an authority though. Just a Nazi rally at their secret volcano lair, and their super ship. We've seen three "civilized worlds" so far: -Maz' planet, where her bar serves both Republican and First Order patrons. -Casino planet, where they serve both Republican and First Order patrons. -Coruscant, where the one Republican woman we focus on wears a uniform suspiciously similar to the First Order guys'. Now you can say that the first two are neutral, unaffiliated planets. But the better explanation is that these are all Republic worlds. We're also told about Rose's planet, where the baddies came to power and nobody gave a poo poo - which implies that it was not an act of war, that they just won an election. It's the one point where the Trump analogy is apt: what country did Trump and his supporters invade America from? (Don't say Russia.) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 19:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We've seen three "civilized worlds" so far: frest fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 19:19
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According to J.J. Abrams in the PR campaign for TFA: The First Order is "Nazi's Hiding in Argentina" According to Bloodlines: The First Order is a political movement led by a full half of the New Republic Senate, first secretly and then openly. All before TFA According to Aftermath: The First Order is a group of Imperials using an old Imperial Stash in the Unknown Regions According to Battlefront II (the EA one): The First Order is a secret backup Empire by Palpatine to be activated in case of his death.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:28
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I like that even in the various explanations for the first order nobody accounts for Snoke at all. He's just some dude. Snoke would have been fine if he was some puffed up regional warlord or something, but instead he was Supreme Leader and a Sith Lord on top of that. Why was he disfigured? How did he come to power, who taught him the ways of the Sith? We had 3 movies dedicated to Palpatine's ascension and another 3 dedicated to his ultimate defeat, and this dude just jumped that train offscreen.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:35
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frest posted:One line in the opening text crawl about how, "dissatisfied with the out-of-touch leadership from the Republic, many systems have begun to embrace the ideology of the First Order, making the galaxy great again!" would have gone a LONG WAY towards substantiating this There is such a line: "The sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire." Where would the ashes of the Empire be located? Obviously, in the New Republic - which was formerly the Empire. Coruscant, for example, was the Imperial capital.Then it became the New Republic capital. Now, you're asking 'why didn't they just state this clearly?' And the answer is that, being liberal company, Disney is carefully censoring criticism of the New Republic, even though the entire narrative of these films is about its failure. That's why the backstory must remain nebulous, and the First Order just inexplicably exists. The result is that we get all these weird euphemisms: Kylo Ren is trying not to be 'seduced by the light' of Republicanism. He talks to his spooky dead grandfather about finding strength, while the part where his grandfather is literally Jesus Christ is omitted, etc.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is such a line: You're reading things too literally. It's entirely possible the remaining followers of the empire fled and founded a competing galactic government while the New Republic took over governance of the dead Empire. Think of Chiang Kai Shek fleeing to Taiwan to setup his own government, after losing to Mao and the Communist rebels. In this scenario you could also say that Communist China rose from the ashes of the Nationalist government, whose leader fled and started a new government in an outlying region. Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 19:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is such a line:  unless we assume they were a rogue faction that refused to disarm). Jakku for example has the scars of that initial conflict, with military wreckage that is clearly very dated. The presence of additional OT-era hidden rebel fortresses adds to this feeling that not only was the original conflict larger than just the battles of Yavin/Endor, but also that there is a clear demarcation between that old conflict and this new one.I am actually completely willing to accept the Luke/Kylo fall of the temple narrative without criticism. Anakin was redeemed however, so Vader's armor is empty and there is no evil spirit to commune with (unless it was snoke I guess) frest fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 19:50
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Say what you will about the old EU, you don't have to read any of it to understand what's going on in the feature films.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:51
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frest posted:I am actually completely willing to accept the Luke/Kylo fall of the temple narrative without criticism. Anakin was redeemed however, so Vader's armor is empty and their is no evil spirit to commune with. Just because Kylo thinks he's hearing messages from Vader doesn't mean he is. Kid is unstable.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:52
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Just because Kylo thinks he's hearing messages from Vader doesn't mean he is. Kid is unstable. yeah i edited that part. I actually found the he-said/she-said "certain point of view" description of the failure of Luke's Jedi temple one of the better parts to the movie.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:54
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:You're reading things too literally. It's entirely possible the remaining followers of the empire fled and founded a competing galactic government while the New Republic took over governance of the dead Empire. Ok, but where did they flee to? Galagazombie’s explanations need to be combined: high-ranking Imperials didn’t flee to a place outside the Galaxy. They dispersed inside the galaxy, going into hiding on low-level planets. Meanwhile, Imperial-sympathetic conservatives are literally everywhere - even in the Senate. They’ve started their own political party, and they’re gaining popular support. These guys are working with the ex-Imperials to retake the Galaxy. And, on top of that, you have the neo-Nazi “extremists” building doomsday weapons in these secret bases. Three different related phenomena.
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Sep 19, 2019 20:06
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And notably, all the stuff you’re getting from google/the eu poo poo is just working backwards to try and explain what’s going on in the movies
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Sep 19, 2019 20:52
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DeimosRising posted:And notably, all the stuff you’re getting from google/the eu poo poo is just working backwards to try and explain what’s going on in the movies Consult the placemat, we must
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Sep 19, 2019 21:06
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DeimosRising posted:And notably, all the stuff you’re getting from google/the eu poo poo is just working backwards to try and explain what’s going on in the movies The hilarious part is they couldn't even get that right. They just tell all the book and video game people to come up with an explanation themselves, and it never occurs to them that a these groups/authors working separately will come up with multiple contradicting explanations.
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Sep 19, 2019 21:27
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frest posted:I've resigned myself to the following: There will, however, be three more movies before the "Skywalker Saga" will be allowed to end. Rian Johnston's crime isn't so much making a bad Star Wars movie. Engame, Age of Ultron, etc, are worse movies, or at least as bad, and are ritually embraced by much of the same audience. It's that he interrupted the JJ Abrams formula by attempting to add any substance at all in the process.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:24
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What is the substance?
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Sep 19, 2019 22:30
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In this case, criticism of the Jedi and the Republic. The film opens with the mystery of why Luke is a bitter old man who has lost faith in the Jedi and the Republic. It's not very successful criticism though, and being so muddled, the clearest explaination that emerges is that his New Jedi Order failed because of his fear of his incestous sexual attraction to Klyo. e: really, the strongest theme in the ST so far is that Kylo is like, really drat sexy. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 22:39
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The rise of the FO from the ashes will be covered in The Mandalorian, coming this November to Disney+, the brand new Disney streaming service. Subscribe to the magic today and receive 25% a 3 year year subscription!
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Sep 19, 2019 23:28
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Jerkface posted:The rise of the FO from the ashes will be covered in The Mandalorian, coming this November to Disney+, the brand new Disney streaming service. Subscribe to the magic today and receive 25% a 3 year year subscription! I’ll check it out just for Werner Herzog.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:46
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Come to think of it, rewatching all the scenes with Kylo and Hux is way better if you read them as flirting.
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Sep 20, 2019 01:26
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frest posted:I like that even in the various explanations for the first order nobody accounts for Snoke at all. He's just some dude. I never saw his 2nd head though.
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Sep 20, 2019 02:51
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Hodgepodge posted:There will, however, be three more movies before the "Skywalker Saga" will be allowed to end. You can't polish a turd
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Sep 20, 2019 03:58
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Bogus Adventure posted:You can't polish a turd Yeah, but at least you notice it stinks. Whereas if it had been blandly bad, most people wouldn't even have realized it was bad. They'd be like "oh yeah, it was great, it lived up to expectations"* and have nothing else to say. *Avengers Endgame review from a co-worker who booked a night off work for the first showing and everything.
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Sep 20, 2019 05:40
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Robot Style posted:Battlefront IV was going to do a dumb what-if storyline too, but at least they bothered to do some redesigns instead of just pallette swapping everyone. Oh lol Dark Obi Wan looks like a Sith hobo.
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Sep 20, 2019 05:52
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Hodgepodge posted:There will, however, be three more movies before the "Skywalker Saga" will be allowed to end. the people who like tfa but despise tlj are the most baffling to me, because much of the problems of tlj come from inheriting the baggage of tfa, the worst star wars movie. it's why if rian johnson's trilogy or whatever actually happens i'll be at least a little interested to see what he does free of the fetters of an Official Chapter burdened by jj abrams hack work. i don't have high hopes of course because if he tries to explore anything in a thoughtful way he'll get memory hole'd like lord and miller.
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Sep 20, 2019 06:38
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https://twitter.com/LEGO_Group/status/1174322244723650561
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Sep 20, 2019 07:47
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R. Guyovich posted:the people who like tfa but despise tlj are the most baffling to me, because much of the problems of tlj come from inheriting the baggage of tfa, the worst star wars movie. it's why if rian johnson's trilogy or whatever actually happens i'll be at least a little interested to see what he does free of the fetters of an Official Chapter burdened by jj abrams hack work. i don't have high hopes of course because if he tries to explore anything in a thoughtful way he'll get memory hole'd like lord and miller. he might be safer than lord & miller because that whole poo poo seemed to go down because kasdan was really loving precious about his script for solo and got pissy that the two comedy guys who have pretty much only done comedies wanted to make it funny
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Sep 20, 2019 08:51
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