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tino posted:If Marx is alive, he would reclassify HK and SF into landlord and landless classes, and also the land price setting capitalists. Fojar38 posted:Why do we care what Karl Marx would think
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Sep 22, 2019 22:54
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Fojar38 posted:Why do we care what Karl Marx would think Because some people are leftists who look at politics and movements like the HK through a class struggle lens in order to better understand social reality and to figure out where they stand on the issue. Because it's a framework that has proven its explanatory and predictive power many times before. Then there are also people who are politically opposed with the conclusions that such an approach leads to, but still care about what the leftists think because they worry that people might listen to them. So they'll do the typical right-wing concern trolling thing and pretend they know what they're talking about in terms of marxism, and coopt and twist its language, bending over backwards to try to justify their imperialist stance in terms of "what marx would think", with the result creating a lot of confusion. Sometimes they might also just be doing that because they are attached to being a "progressive" as a personal identity without real commitment or principles, and so will try to rationalize their pre-existing liberal stance on an issue as being the correct marxist position without doing the work.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:20
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Bad leftists are the ones who take Marxism and turn into creepy smiled Mormon missionaries who treat his writings as rigid word of god. And not interesting stuff written from the perspective of the mid-1800's.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:25
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Classical Marxism is the Sheria version of Communism.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:27
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Hardcore Internet Communist: Capitalism is a terrifying force that corrupts all things and will do and say anything to make a profit. Also Hardcore Internet Communist: I know this LOOKS like a kleptocratic blatantly capitalist dictatorship, but can't you see they call themselves communist???
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Sep 23, 2019 17:33
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the PRC has some features which are interesting and which superficially seem to be inherited from the "people's" part of "people's republic", but i honestly don't know enough about it to say much more - at any rate, it's definitely pretty degenerate as far as workers' states go. a certain third worldism must also be accounted for in discussions of PRC on the fringe left, but i'm not a huge fan of those analyses
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Sep 23, 2019 17:41
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Grape posted:Also Hardcore Internet Communist: I know this LOOKS like a kleptocratic blatantly capitalist dictatorship, but can't you see they call themselves communist???
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Sep 23, 2019 17:42
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Grape posted:Hardcore Internet Communist: Capitalism is a terrifying force that corrupts all things and will do and say anything to make a profit. More paid leave, maternity leave, and a guaranteed pension for employees. Also bring hard to fire and actually having workplace contract protections (unlike western countries and their love of at will employment). A huge amount of people work in state owned industries with guaranteed lifetime employment and 70% of millennials own their own home. Apparently America can be a country where the TVA exists and all the smart people say that doesn’t make it a socialist/communist country, and yet when a state socialist nation adopts elements of a mixed market economy all the same geniuses immediately rush to call it capitalist.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:45
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Oppose your own imperialist nation's foreign policy in China and they call you a tankie communist who follows any government with a red flag Oppose your own imperialist nation's foreign policy in Russia and they call you a tankie stalinist who is nostalgic for the USSR Oppose your own imperialist nation's foreign policy in Iran and they call you a tankie authoritarian who just looooves dictators Absolutely anything at all to divert attention away from global imperialist policy and to silence all criticism and opposition to it.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:02
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That three months of maternity leave is super impressive. Well, at least those three-month old babies don't have to survive on their own since the fathers also have a generous three days of paternity leave. What a paradise.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:17
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Darkest Auer posted:That three months of maternity leave is super impressive. Well, at least those three-month old babies don't have to survive on their own since the fathers also have a generous three days of paternity leave. What a paradise. Nice moving of the goalposts and throwing a red herring on top. Why can’t all countries be as nice as the rich, colonialist ones in NATO?
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Sep 23, 2019 18:34
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China’s economic system isn’t actually as relevant to the HK situation as people are making it out to be—if a nation’s economic system were the end-all-be-all of foreign relations then the US and Russia would be good buddies by now. We can leave the discussion of whether everything is actually an expression of the great struggle against the Evil Empire (whichever empire you choose that to mean) to Reagan-adjacent cold warriors because China would be acting something like this way towards Hong Kong whether it was in its current form, or a more capitalist one, or a more communist one. Beijing does not want HK to have its own identity and sense of self-determination.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:36
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Bob le Moche posted:Oppose your own imperialist nation's foreign policy in China and they call you a tankie communist who follows any government with a red flag You don't actually care about imperialism if you only get mad about it when one bloc is doing it, and not when other ones are. That makes you some kind of international bloodsports enthusiast who likes rooting for the somewhat less dominant but still powerful as hell team. Like you dress it up in a million words, but you're basically just a Red Sox fan.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:44
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Grape posted:Like you dress it up in a million words, but you're basically just a Red Sox fan.  Let's not say things that can't be unsaid!
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Sep 23, 2019 18:55
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it's a sad day when the ones on the right side of history are the goddamn trots
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Sep 23, 2019 20:46
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:a guaranteed pension for employees. Also bring hard to fire and actually having workplace contract protections. These two things are not part of enforced Chinese labor law. The other ones are though.
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Sep 24, 2019 01:00
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Bob le Moche posted:Oppose your own imperialist nation's foreign policy in China and they call you a tankie communist who follows any government with a red flag Bob le Moche posted:You make it really obvious that you are arguing 100% in bad faith when you rely on this sort of strawmanning.
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Sep 24, 2019 01:54
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Bloodnose posted:These two things are not part of enforced Chinese labor law. The other ones are though. It’s actually incredibly hard to fire someone and this is enforced, may not apply to laowai though.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:08
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Grape posted:You don't actually care about imperialism if you only get mad about it when one bloc is doing it, and not when other ones are. That makes you some kind of international bloodsports enthusiast who likes rooting for the somewhat less dominant but still powerful as hell team. gently caress.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:49
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Grape posted:Like you dress it up in a million words, but you're basically just a Red Sox fan. As a Red Sox fan, I find this offensive. You couldn't have used a football analogy? The Patriots and the Broncos both have really detestable fan bases...
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Sep 26, 2019 15:58
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Oh no am I being accused of anti-americanism?
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Sep 27, 2019 14:23
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Bob le Moche posted:Oh no am I being accused of anti-americanism? No, nobody thinks that highly of you.
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Sep 27, 2019 14:25
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2019 20:24
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nyt posted:Hong Kong’s traditionally dominant social class — educated, white-collar professionals They are chasing after the fantasy rose tinted 90s Hong Kong when HKers were 5 times, 10 times better paid than the mainlanders they encountered. And to HKers $$ = dignity because nothing else command respect in the this society. tino fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 01:35
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Wrong thread. yuck.
oohhboy fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 02:23
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sincx posted:Hey look, the New York Times is analyzing the social class behind the protests: Just a small point and I can't speak for HK or Quebec or Catalonia but Scottish independence isn't a purely middle class concern (though lots of middle class people want it)
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Sep 28, 2019 17:15
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Bob le Moche posted:Oh no am I being accused of anti-americanism? Ok sure, we can accept that idea. Which means also that this is your real interest, and you actually don't really care whatsoever about imperialism and capitalism. Like cool. Ok.
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Sep 28, 2019 17:33
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Bob le Moche posted:Oh no am I being accused of anti-americanism? Your every right wing patriot but with different opinions.
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Sep 28, 2019 20:10
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https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1178357480411353090?s=20
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Sep 29, 2019 18:23
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There are about 30 HK malls closed today (Tuesday). People will be out on the street. Congratulate on the thread predicting the event 3 year ahead of time.
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Oct 1, 2019 01:04
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:More paid leave, maternity leave, and a guaranteed pension for employees. Also bring hard to fire and actually having workplace contract protections (unlike western countries and their love of at will employment). A huge amount of people work in state owned industries with guaranteed lifetime employment and 70% of millennials own their own home. Seeing how China's whole thing is the state and capitalists conspiring to surpress working class living conditions and ability to organise independently I think it's much more accurate to describe it as State Capitalism than socialist. Over half the population still aren't eligible for full benefits if they want to work in a city.
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Oct 1, 2019 07:32
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pointsofdata posted:Seeing how China's whole thing is the state and capitalists conspiring to surpress working class living conditions and ability to organise independently I think it's much more accurate to describe it as State Capitalism than socialist. How's the bolded part different from "regular" capitalism outside China?
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Oct 1, 2019 08:21
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Kassad posted:How's the bolded part different from "regular" capitalism outside China? The state and capitalists are more or less a single entity without the fig leaf of seperation. See Russia for a different spin on the same concept.
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Oct 1, 2019 09:59
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Kassad posted:How's the bolded part different from "regular" capitalism outside China? The effects aren't that different, that's the capitalist bit. The mechanism is though, since the state runs many large enterprises and many powerful capitalists are also integrated into the political elite more directly than in more Western capitalist states. I don't know enough about it to argue this in detail but it feels like you could say that it's socialism for the elites and capitalism for everyone else (I'm thinking about how the ruling elites will direct their members to act in a certain way to preserve the groups power), a bit like most banks in the west are really run for the benefit of senior management/employees rather than for shareholders.
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Oct 1, 2019 12:12
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It's not that long since you could buy a liver for $100k harvested on demand from an enemy of the state. If that's not state capitalism I don't know what is.
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Oct 1, 2019 12:15
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Kassad posted:How's the bolded part different from "regular" capitalism outside China? The state owns substantial portion of industries (in China's case, only about 35%, not as much as you thought), and the state interest and strategic SEO interests are tied together. In other words, google and Apple are allow to and do make decision going against the state interest, but much harder in China. It's really not that different from the relationship between US government and Boeing but in China is more standardized and official across many key industries.
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Oct 1, 2019 12:38
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tino posted:The state owns substantial portion of industries (in China's case, only about 35%, not as much as you thought), and the state interest and strategic SEO interests are tied together. In other words, google and Apple are allow to and do make decision going against the state interest, but much harder in China. It's really not that different from the relationship between US government and Boeing but in China is more standardized and official across many key industries. A key thing that this enables is the enormous emphasis on social stability. Once you're a billionaire (or tbh just very wealthy) in a very unequal country preserving the status quo becomes at least as important as amassing further wealth. It's telling that social stability isn't a big priority for socialists in most of the world, but is a big deal for elite "communists" in China.
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Oct 1, 2019 12:54
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https://twitter.com/41Strange/status/1178870421011095552
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Oct 1, 2019 13:00
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pointsofdata posted:A key thing that this enables is the enormous emphasis on social stability. Once you're a billionaire (or tbh just very wealthy) in a very unequal country preserving the status quo becomes at least as important as amassing further wealth. It's telling that social stability isn't a big priority for socialists in most of the world, but is a big deal for elite "communists" in China. Interesting view. Do you think this is the side effect of State Capitalism or intended goal? I wish there is more academy study of State Capitalism (for example, flash out the difference between the Chinese system and the South Korean system.)
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Oct 1, 2019 13:10
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https://twitter.com/huxijin_gt/status/1178859815688261633?s=21 Touch the missile. Respect the missile.
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Oct 1, 2019 13:15
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