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yippee cahier posted:My dumbass social media acquaintances were carrying water for our PM even though we live in a deep orange riding. The only recruitment tactic liberals have is to say "sure, good policy would be nice, but you have to vote liberal or else the tories will win" regardless of whether that's true.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:46
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Dr. Stab posted:The only recruitment tactic liberals have is to say "sure, good policy would be nice, but you have to vote liberal or else the tories will win" regardless of whether that's true. It is true though.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:02
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Vintersorg posted:Would no stress test lead to what made the US real estate market collapse? No but that + 30 year mortgages is going to drive up house prices faster
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Sep 23, 2019 19:21
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Fart Amplifier posted:It is Trudeau.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:25
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C'est juste un trou d'eau.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:39
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zapplez posted:I know the whole "both sides are the worst" is so played out at this point and both of them are just 100% pro big business, but you have to be a loving idiot to not realize the Libs have a much better track record when it comes to social liberty. Whether its gay marriage or bringing up abortion rights or weed or whatever. There is a big difference. Abortion and gay marriage were both legalized by the courts and the Conservatives have shown no interest in changing the status quo on either file even when they had a majority government. I think there are other social issues where you could raise reasonable concerns but on these specific files I'm not clear on what makes the Liberal track record "much" better? It seems like basically a coke vs pepsi difference. I also think that having such an obviously dishonest avatar for progressive ideology in the form of Justin Trudeau probably does more to undermine people's faith in genuine social tolerance than a dozen years of Conservative government. Whatever minor policy improvements you're getting right now are coming at the expense of a huge part of the country concluding (not without reason) that politicians only spout progressive rhetoric to launder their pro-corporate agenda. Do you really think that permanently fusing social progress to a big business agenda is a sustainable or desirable political coalition? You're creating much worse problems down the road. When people of goodwill stand by and allow Trudeau and co to appropriate progressive sounding ideas and using them to justify awful regressive policies the longterm result is to completely discredit and demoralize the left and to legitimize criticisms of cultural liberalism that see it as just a stalking horse for corporate rule. If you actually cared about preserving a socially liberal society then you should understand that the Liberal party is literally your greatest enemy.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:40
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Would you rather be stabbed or shot? Sure, there's a third option where maybe neither happens, but half this thread is hemming and hawing over whether to vote for the "I will stab you" party because they really don't want to get shot.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:43
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Postess with the Mostest posted:That's why smart money is on scheerslide. Lotta left gonna stay home this election. 2015 Trudeau is our Trump, 2019 Trudeau is our Hillary. If the People's party wasn't around I would be inclined to agree. Who knows what will happen now, the psycho reactionary id has its own diehard party to back now
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Sep 23, 2019 19:48
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Who knows what will happen now Oh oooh. Me! I know! After a few years mutually bumbling about in the wilderness they'll be reabsorbed into the Conservative party by a bunch of ultra-xenophobic hardliners that make Bernier look downright cuddly, shoving the Conservatives even further right just in time to form the government.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:56
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zapplez posted:I know the whole "both sides are the worst" is so played out at this point and both of them are just 100% pro big business, but you have to be a loving idiot to not realize the Libs have a much better track record when it comes to social liberty. Whether its gay marriage or bringing up abortion rights or weed or whatever. There is a big difference. Banning gay marriage or abortion would require a massive upheaval to the Charter that the Cons would never touch it. Anything that's in the media right now about is literally a Liberal election scare tactic. It's not like the majority of Liberals give a poo poo about either of those things.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:58
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On the topic of "well gay marriage is a settled issue and the cons won't do anything to change that" forgive me if I don't believe it for a second. Everybody said the same thing about Trump (and I know, it's a different country), especially since same-sex marriage was considered to be a universal freedom under the Constitution, and I don't think I'd say that life has been safer or better under the Trump admin for LGBTQ people. Even if they didn't do anything like trying to roll back actual marriage or abortion rights I think not acknowledging the power that social conservatives wield when given a majority and its effect on the public discourse is doing the discussion a disservice. Obviously I in no way speak for anyone else, but frankly a PC government will probably always terrify me more than a Liberal one for that reason alone. Especially under Scheer.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:01
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Did the country shift noticeably to the right under Harper? If anything, the conservative majority in 2011 was a massive wake up call that spurred a lot of mobilization and activism dedicated to pushing back against Harper's agenda. Momentum that was instantly killed when the Liberals were elected.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:06
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A whole lot of people here have seemed forget what a loving gently caress up Harper was and, yes the cons are a whole lot worst than the Liberals but it seems like the in joke is "Trudeau (the current PM) sucks so much so let's get the cons in just so we can remind ourselves what real pain feels like). Seriously this "are the Cons really worse than the Libs" feels like some kind of redemption for all the poo poo the Cons have pulled during Harper's tenure. Here is an easy test for you though: Which party believes that global warming is real? Or which party thinks abortion is a sin? Anyway, my funny "strategic voting" story is my friends out here on the west coast freaking out that Harper might win again "strategically voted" liberal even though they lean closer to the NDP, only for the election to be long decided on the east coast before their votes even mattered. A lot of Facebook regret at not voting NDP came out of that.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:07
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I know it's a little cliche but just imagine the powderkeg if stephen harper blackface pics had come out in the 2015 campaign.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:09
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Madkal posted:A whole lot of people here have seemed forget what a loving gently caress up Harper was and, yes the cons are a whole lot worst than the Liberals but it seems like the in joke is "Trudeau (the current PM) sucks so much so let's get the cons in just so we can remind ourselves what real pain feels like). Seriously this "are the Cons really worse than the Libs" feels like some kind of redemption for all the poo poo the Cons have pulled during Harper's tenure. Here is an easy test for you though: Which party believes that global warming is real? Or which party thinks abortion is a sin? Are you loving kidding? None of them.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:09
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Madkal posted:Here is an easy test for you though: Which party believes that global warming is real? Here's an easy test for you, which party nationalized a pipeline so that they could try to ram it through against public outcry and backlash?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:11
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But Harper would have rammed through TWO pipelines 
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Sep 23, 2019 20:16
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mediaphage posted:On the topic of "well gay marriage is a settled issue and the cons won't do anything to change that" forgive me if I don't believe it for a second. Everybody said the same thing about Trump (and I know, it's a different country), especially since same-sex marriage was considered to be a universal freedom under the Constitution, and I don't think I'd say that life has been safer or better under the Trump admin for LGBTQ people. Ignoring the obvious differences between our two countries politics, no one was saying that gay marriage was a settled issue once Trump was elected. Everyone knew it was hosed because he was going to be able to fill 2, possibly 3, supreme court seats with hardline conservatives and the Republicans were going to control the courts for 40 years. Second of all, what have the Democrats done in the States to help LGBTQ people? Gay marriage was legalized by the court, religious exemption laws were repealed by the courts. They don't give a poo poo politically about LGBTQ other then paying lip service to causes when speaking. The Liberals are the same poo poo here, especially Trudeau, he's the perfect mouthpiece for sounding progressive then doing absolutely nothing to back it up.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:19
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Helsing posted:Abortion and gay marriage were both legalized by the courts and the Conservatives have shown no interest in changing the status quo on either file even when they had a majority government. I think there are other social issues where you could raise reasonable concerns but on these specific files I'm not clear on what makes the Liberal track record "much" better? It seems like basically a coke vs pepsi difference. Everyone read this post over and over again until you can recite it from memory.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:28
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DariusLikewise posted:Second of all, what have the Democrats done in the States to help LGBTQ people? Gay marriage was legalized by the court, religious exemption laws were repealed by the courts. They don't give a poo poo politically about LGBTQ other then paying lip service to causes when speaking. The Liberals are the same poo poo here, especially Trudeau, he's the perfect mouthpiece for sounding progressive then doing absolutely nothing to back it up. The president gets to nominate federal and Supreme Court judges when seats are open, do they not?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:34
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Sounding progressive and doing nothing is a lot better then being unprogressive, doing nothing, and paying lipservice to regressives. C-16 happened under Trudeau's liberals, that's certainly not nothing either. As I said before, I certainly see Scheer as kind of person who would play to the whole "campus free speech" nonsense and could stand to weaken trans rights, or at least steer the discourse and embolden reactionaries.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:48
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As usual around this time in the election cycle we’re getting a crash course in exactly why the Liberal Party of Canada is so dangerous. I almost feel like we could copy paste the thread from last cycle and shut this one down.  Lib or Con we get the same stuff: pipelines, arms deals with the Saudis, rampant corruption, etc. The difference is the Libs cover their policies with a thin veneer of progressive sounding language that allows your typical voter to shrug and go back to ignoring politics. At least with a Conservative government they tend to own their policies in a way that produces a backlash. Liberals are just a bit better at manufacturing consent. That’s all.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:49
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Madkal posted:A whole lot of people here have seemed forget what a loving gently caress up Harper was and, yes the cons are a whole lot worst than the Liberals but it seems like the in joke is "Trudeau (the current PM) sucks so much so let's get the cons in just so we can remind ourselves what real pain feels like). Seriously this "are the Cons really worse than the Libs" feels like some kind of redemption for all the poo poo the Cons have pulled during Harper's tenure. Here is an easy test for you though: Which party believes that global warming is real? Or which party thinks abortion is a sin? What's the difference between building the pipeline because you don't think global warming is real and building it because you don't care? We need a strategy to get ourselves out of this situation and "don't rock the boat lest you split the vote" isn't it. Anyways, please vote for my radical climate change party where every citizen gets their own nuclear power plant and electric train.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:13
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TheKingofSprings posted:The president gets to nominate federal and Supreme Court judges when seats are open, do they not? Yes, but the Democrats stupidly gave up on gubernational races during the Obama years and instead focused all their energy on the Presidency which allowed the Republicans to gerrymander every state they could get their hands on and fix every national race for the next 40 years.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:19
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Oxyclean posted:Sounding progressive and doing nothing is a lot better then being unprogressive, doing nothing, and paying lipservice to regressives. C-16 happened under Trudeau's liberals, that's certainly not nothing either. If you really think Trudeau is a boon to identity politics or that his government is doing anything except generating a backlash against them then I think you're seriously misreading the political moment. Trudeau has damaged ~*the discourse*~ in ways Scheer or Harper never could have dreamed of.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:31
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Those people who are saying that abortion and LGBT issues are a settled case that Conservatives won't touch - are you actually following any news about current Conservative policy in Canada? Are you just ignoring Ford's hijacking of the sex-ed issue to drive his campaign and shore up his support? Did you all just miss the Federal Conservatives reopening a debate on the party's stance on abortion? When you say that these issues are settled, you are very clearly talking from a position where you do not have to think about it. Minority status does not just come down to marriage rights. LGBT healthcare and support services are being cut by Conservative governments. People are not deciding if they want to be shot or stabbed - they are choosing if they want their throat slit by a Conservative government or a gash to their side by a Liberal one.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:42
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Helsing posted:Abortion and gay marriage were both legalized by the courts and the Conservatives have shown no interest in changing the status quo on either file even when they had a majority government. I think there are other social issues where you could raise reasonable concerns but on these specific files I'm not clear on what makes the Liberal track record "much" better? It seems like basically a coke vs pepsi difference. Of the CPC and the LPC , there is only one party whos leader publically will say "Access to abortion is a non-negotiable, dead issue and we aren't going back on it". Same with gay marriage. The CPC policy is not the same where they tolerate crazy fringe members trying to bring up these issues. One party its acceptable to be vocal about your personal beliefs being that both of those things should be outlawed. Thats a problem.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:51
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painted into a coroner posted:When you say that these issues are settled, you are very clearly talking from a position where you do not have to think about it. This is basically the summary of what I read here. Accelerationism, and wishing for the land to burn for something better to arise, is only appealing to those whose lands aren't the ones going to be burned. As a minority and seeing so many xenophobic and intolerant red flags go off with Scheer/CPC, just as with Harper, and then seeing all the white people around me handwave it as on the same level of importance as tax policy or something is loving disheartening. Don't be like one of those white progressives who stayed home and didn't vote in the 2016 US election cause 'both sides are bad'.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:58
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No voting liberal is almost the same as voting conservatives hth. Most reasonable advice is to look at your riding's history and decide whether your NDP candidate is viable or not. I don't think you should feel locked into voting lib.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:14
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Helsing posted:Did the country shift noticeably to the right under Harper? If anything, the conservative majority in 2011 was a massive wake up call that spurred a lot of mobilization and activism dedicated to pushing back against Harper's agenda. Momentum that was instantly killed when the Liberals were elected. Harper gut institutions and tried to hamstrung as much of the bureaucracy as possible. I don't know if the Liberals actually restored the cuts made by Harper, certainly I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. But it does need to be said that while you can keep things like abortion legal regardless of who is in power, providing access to it is much easier to gut. Nominally that should be difficult for the federal government to control, but we had one province that did not provide access to abortion for 35 years after it was made legal. As we've seen in the US, anti-abortion states have found it easier to restrict access to abortions instead of making them outright illegal. And in a country as decentralized as ours, that means access to abortion for rural women (which includes First Nations women before anyone starts the 'gently caress rurals' chant) is pretty limited already. CPP expansion is the one thing I'll give JT credit for, that was a relatively significant accomplishment. Beyond that, the change in government seems to be more about the electorate's mood -- sunny days! -- more than anything else. I agree with Scorchy that staying home instead of voting is lovely advice, but I refuse to be held hostage by the general idea that I have to vote for the Liberals. The material conditions created to drive a lot of this extremism were championed entirely by the Liberal party over the last 30+ years. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 22:14
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It's a different world than 2011 as well. Right-wing extremism is on the rise and only growing more popular in Canada. Who knows what the Cons will do once in power with a very vocal base spurred on by false information and goddamn meme's of all things. Strategic voting is all us loving idiots can do to prevent the right from gaining power.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:18
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Dreylad posted:I refuse to be held hostage by the general idea that I have to vote for the Liberals. But we have to vote for hilary or trump will win
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Sep 23, 2019 22:24
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Vintersorg posted:It's a different world than 2011 as well. Right-wing extremism is on the rise and only growing more popular in Canada. Who knows what the Cons will do once in power with a very vocal base spurred on by false information and goddamn meme's of all things. One cool thing people can do that certain people hate is not talk about strategic voting a month before polling go up and instead push the conversation more left and see what happens. There's no reason voting lib to own the cons should feel like an inevitability at this point, especially considering the past orange wave.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:24
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Toalpaz posted:No voting liberal is almost the same as voting conservatives hth. Most reasonable advice is to look at your riding's history and decide whether your NDP candidate is viable or not. I don't think you should feel locked into voting lib. The thing that causes the history to look like that is people voting ndp historically. "It's exactly the same as voting conservative" 2 seconds later "people voting for ndp in a losing riding will cause people to elect ndp mps in the future."
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Sep 23, 2019 22:25
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Jesus Christ, it’s happening again.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:27
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Toalpaz posted:No voting liberal is almost the same as voting conservatives hth. Most reasonable advice is to look at your riding's history and decide whether your NDP candidate is viable or not. I don't think you should feel locked into voting lib. I don't think anyone is saying vote LPC regardless. If its a 3 way race, vote with your heart. If the NDP are the 1st or 2nd, vote NDP. We want a NDP minority with LPC backing but Id rather have a LPC minority with NDP backing than any other alternative involving the cons.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:27
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There's a lot of small things outside of stated policy that Cons tend to do that can really gently caress things up as well. I've got some friends in the provincial government and one big change that apparently happened after Ford got in was suddenly all the ministries weren't allowed to talk to each other directly. Like under Wynn if you were in the Education ministry and you needed to work with your colleague in Health, you could just like, email or call them. Now apparently all inter-ministry communication has to go through the minister's office directly and it's really hamstrung things.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:30
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Pinterest Mom posted:https://twitter.com/OttawaReporter/status/1176155464284946432 Sounds like this will be the last election without a national pharmacare program.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:34
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BGrifter posted:Jesus Christ, it’s happening again. Why would it not? The next step is linking to one of those strategic voting maps to which the recommendation for every riding is "vote Liberal".
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Sep 23, 2019 22:34
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zapplez posted:I don't think anyone is saying vote LPC regardless. If its a 3 way race, vote with your heart. If the NDP are the 1st or 2nd, vote NDP. We want a NDP minority with LPC backing but Id rather have a LPC minority with NDP backing than any other alternative involving the cons. Canadian polling isn’t this accurate. infernal machines posted:Why would it not? Oh yes, one conveniently paid for by Liberal party donors.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:36
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