Panzeh posted:There are fragmentation rockets for the RPG-7 today, and HEAT rounds aren't all that bad. People have been using HEAT rockets/grenades in an anti personnel role since forever. i know but that isn't what we're talking about. they aren't going to blow up a hasty mg position in an apartment building or knock down a wall. you need more than 3/4s of a kilogram of he to do that. quote:1 - in urban combat you're going to set up a lot of MG positions with relatively deep fields of fire, but in more close in combat it's just as easy or better to blow up a wall or a fighting position using the liberal application of high explosives. RPGs are a militia's mortars or artillery or even air support in urban fighting in addition to the standard knock holes in things uses. so...they(rpg-7) aren't going to do the bolded parts very well. that isn't to say that the various militia groups in lebanon weren't using them to shoot at people across the street. i have no idea. i just know that they aren't very effective at blowing up things up. killing or suppressing the guy shooting at you from a window, sure. anything more than that, i dont think it would work. if i read 'blow things up' too literally, it was unintentional and i apologize. but, i agree that rpgs are a poor mans mortar. loud exploding things are pretty good at making people keep their head down.
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Sep 24, 2019 00:08
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Don't have to blow up the entire wall, just enough of it for dudes to move through. Probably also does a number on anyone on the other side, especially if they're not shielded from the blast point.
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Sep 24, 2019 00:41
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These clips are not gory but it's combat, so warning. I think they are a good example of how it's both true that RPGs are not very optimal for killing infantry, but that they can be extremely effective at suppressing and dislodging infantry. It would super suck to be near this stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppoNgbNEIJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lln_e-_PC_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5GHVZTyYc
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Sep 24, 2019 00:58
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Grenades are pretty optimal for killing infantry. That's why we've put so much effort into making them go far, such as by putting them on the tip of small rockets.
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Sep 24, 2019 01:45
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FrangibleCover posted:The exact weapons I'm talking about are the L85A2 Rifle with L123A2 underbarrel grenade-launcher, the L110A2 Minimi Para (same as M249), the L7A1 MAG (same as M240) and the L86A2 LSW in the Marksman role. vains posted:if i read 'blow things up' too literally, it was unintentional and i apologize.
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Sep 24, 2019 02:20
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Plus a loud bang and just knocking a lot of dust off the far side of a wall in to a room is fairly persuasive. Keep in mind again, 1980s Lebanese militia. You make do with what you have. Yes, shooting a bunch of RPGs at a machine gun nest is a sub optimal way for a real army to handle the problem, but you’re lucky if you have a 81mm mortar in the vicinity, let alone artillery, tanks, aircraft, MCLOS atgms, larger caliber recoilless rifles, etc.
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Sep 24, 2019 03:03
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Does the RPG warhead fly in a straight line, or a ballistic arc? I'd imagine that aiming an arcing rocket is tough for a new recruit, although a sufficient number of warheads would make that a non-issue.
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Sep 24, 2019 03:09
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The Lone Badger posted:My (extremely suspect) understanding is that the SAW was intended to be easily fired from the shoulder like a rifle, as opposed to LMGs that were intended to be fired prone or propped on something. The SAW is basically a step between old light machine guns and automatic rifles (like the BAR, RPK, and Bren) and heavier GPMGs (like the M60, PKM, and M240). As technology advanced, assault rifles and battle rifles became capable of putting down similar amounts of fire as the old magazine-fed LMGs. The M249 takes the basic idea of a GPMG and scales it down to use lighter ammunition, creating a belt-fed machine gun capable of being operated effectively by a single soldier. This allows for increased squad-level firepower by letting you put even more rounds down range without needing a dedicated MG team. Definitions can get nebulous. The M2 Carbine can technically be classified as a submachine gun (because the cartridge is similar to a magnum pistol round) or assault rifle (because out of that barrel the ballistics within combat ranges are only slightly below standard intermediate rifle rounds).
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Sep 24, 2019 03:16
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It has kind of a weird flight path. Not ballistic at short to medium ranges because it is being actively powered through its flight. They are not accurate in the best of circumstances beyond 200m, there is an initial charge to launch the grenade before the rocket motor kicks in so you can imagine some inconsistency. It has a fairly basic ladder sight as well as a lot of options for optics, night sights, etc. ladder sights are pretty easy to use provided you know the range to target. Evidently the things are kind of finnicky and turn in to crosswinds among other strange behaviors. The general idea was certainly volume over precision. For indirect fire you can crank them out to almost a kilometer.
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Sep 24, 2019 03:19
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Stanislav Petrov has died. Memory eternal. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/18/551792129/stanislav-petrov-the-man-who-saved-the-world-dies-at-77
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Sep 24, 2019 06:01
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HEY GUNS posted:Stanislav Petrov has died. Memory eternal. Hate to tell you this but that article is from two years ago.
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Sep 24, 2019 06:08
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For a moment there I was feeling stupid because I thought he had died last year or the year before.
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Sep 24, 2019 06:12
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WELL poo poo that'll trust me to get my news from twitter account Count Zackula
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Sep 24, 2019 06:12
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FrangibleCover posted:The exact weapons I'm talking about are the L85A2 Rifle with L123A2 underbarrel grenade-launcher, the L110A2 Minimi Para (same as M249), the L7A1 MAG (same as M240) and the L86A2 LSW in the Marksman role. Curioualy enough, the nice TOE website linked earlier states that the newest Brit configuration ditches the SAW, so the squad has to tote around a GPMG. They also have access to disposable recoiless rifle(!) And disposable ATGMs(!!).
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Sep 24, 2019 06:49
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:For indirect fire you can crank them out to almost a kilometer. Apparently that's done by deactivating some part of the fuse that makes the round explode after travelling a certain distance, leaving only the impact fuse, yes?
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Sep 24, 2019 06:54
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FWIW, from the Osprey book on RPGs, despite the frag round for RPGs being available the typical shaped charge round can still cause a surprising amount of casualties. Blast and fragmentation (however irregular) is enough to kill people in a small group and the author lost a guy in Vietnam to such fragments. Secondary fragmentation from stone and wood is also likely to cause casualties.
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Sep 24, 2019 06:55
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JcDent posted:Curioualy enough, the nice TOE website linked earlier states that the newest Brit configuration ditches the SAW, so the squad has to tote around a GPMG. The Disposable Recoilless Rifle is cool, but not as cool as the 94mm LAW-80 that was operated in the late 1980s and early 1990s which was a disposable anti-tank weapon with an inbuilt spotting rifle. 
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Sep 24, 2019 09:13
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FrangibleCover posted:Yes, this is the fourth time that the L7A1 has displaced a lighter, handier machine gun in the squad since the end of WW2. Expect to see the Minimi back in the next fifteen years and the MAG back again in the next thirty. What's their reasoning for doing it?
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Sep 24, 2019 09:17
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Danann posted:FWIW, from the Osprey book on RPGs, despite the frag round for RPGs being available the typical shaped charge round can still cause a surprising amount of casualties. Blast and fragmentation (however irregular) is enough to kill people in a small group and the author lost a guy in Vietnam to such fragments. Secondary fragmentation from stone and wood is also likely to cause casualties. The main issue with shaped charges is that they have a very focused explosion, so you will get absolutely hosed up if you're standing in front of one when it goes off, but just being slightly off to the side can leave you mostly unharmed, while a HE or frag round would ruin everyone in the blast radius. You can see a bunch of examples of this from Syrian civil war videos where people were sniping each other on hilltops with ATGMs (do not watch these).
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Sep 24, 2019 10:06
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C.M. Kruger posted:The DP fires rimmed cartridges, it's harder to make magazine fed weapons that work reliably with them because the cartridge rims like to catch on each other and jam the magazine up, IIRC the Bren had issues with this and you had to be careful loading the magazines. The DP's pan magazines are extremely simple and basically have the rounds each loaded between gear teeth, as the magazine advances (using a large leaf spring in the center that is wound up) they just drop straight down into the feed area and are chambered by the gun. How reliable were the DP's drums? I've understood that eg. the larger Thompson drums weren't usually fully loaded because it made malfunctions much likelier.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:22
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ChubbyChecker posted:How reliable were the DP's drums? I've understood that eg. the larger Thompson drums weren't usually fully loaded because it made malfunctions much likelier. The DP doesn't use a drum magazine though, don't know much about the reliabiltiy of the pan magazine. PPSh with the drum magazine also had the same problem in that they were highly prone to jams when you loaded them fully up, which led to a preference among many soldiers for the box magazines and incentives to produce more of those.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:39
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ChubbyChecker posted:How reliable were the DP's drums? I've understood that eg. the larger Thompson drums weren't usually fully loaded because it made malfunctions much likelier.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:45
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Randarkman posted:The DP doesn't use a drum magazine though, don't know much about the reliabiltiy of the pan magazine. PPSh with the drum magazine also had the same problem in that they were highly prone to jams when you loaded them fully up, which led to a preference among many soldiers for the box magazines and incentives to produce more of those. Huh, I thought that the DP's magazines were also referred to as drum magazines.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:46
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ChubbyChecker posted:Huh, I thought that the DP's magazines were also referred to as drum magazines. It’s a pan magazine. The cartridges are radially stored within the magazine versus axially. Also, some pan magazines do not use spring followers and instead use a recoil driven cam system to rotate the magazine. This is how the Lewis gun works, not sure about the DP.
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Sep 24, 2019 11:15
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The cyclic speed of the DP is much slower than a PPSh, so it makes sense that magazine feed issues would be less of a problem for it than with the latter.
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Sep 24, 2019 11:23
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JcDent posted:Apparently that's done by deactivating some part of the fuse that makes the round explode after travelling a certain distance, leaving only the impact fuse, yes? There's the round actually designed for anti-personnel use that bounces and then airbursts. I think that has about a 1000m range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_4ljD5WmKk
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Sep 24, 2019 11:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It’s a pan magazine. The cartridges are radially stored within the magazine versus axially. Also, some pan magazines do not use spring followers and instead use a recoil driven cam system to rotate the magazine. This is how the Lewis gun works, not sure about the DP. Cam system?
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Sep 24, 2019 11:48
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It’s a pan magazine. The cartridges are radially stored within the magazine versus axially. Also, some pan magazines do not use spring followers and instead use a recoil driven cam system to rotate the magazine. This is how the Lewis gun works, not sure about the DP. Yeah, if you look up images of the magazines you can see how they (DP and PPSh) are quite different from each other. (PPSh drum above, DP pan below)   e: Here's a video where a guy shows how the DP pan magazine works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmejwl0ddjw Randarkman fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 12:00
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glynnenstein posted:There's the round actually designed for anti-personnel use that bounces and then airbursts. I think that has about a 1000m range. Yes, but we're talking about the type of people who can't be choosers.
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Sep 24, 2019 12:03
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JcDent posted:Yes, but we're talking about the type of people who can't be choosers. Fair. Though a pretty impressive diversity of RPG ammo has shown up in Syria these days, I would assume Lebanon's civil war was more homogeneously RPG-7 HEAT.
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Sep 24, 2019 12:10
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HEY GUNS posted:Stanislav Petrov has died. Memory eternal. Acebuckeye13 posted:Hate to tell you this but that article is from two years ago. This just in: Lieutenant Colonelissimo Stanislav Petrov is still dead.
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Sep 24, 2019 13:32
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ChubbyChecker posted:Cam system? It’s a recoil operated cam and pawl system that rotates the magazine to the next cartridge with each recoil action. There is a cam on the bolt. Fangz posted:The cyclic speed of the DP is much slower than a PPSh, so it makes sense that magazine feed issues would be less of a problem for it than with the latter. It’s a totally different mechanism. Cyclic has very little to do with it. The lack of spring in the mag means there’s no spring to wear which improves feeding quality.
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Sep 24, 2019 14:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It’s a recoil operated cam and pawl system that rotates the magazine to the next cartridge with each recoil action. There is a cam on the bolt. The DP pan magazine has a spring in it. This is why the DP accepted both pan and box magazines wheres the Lewis only works with its own pan mag. The cyclic speed matters because the magazine needs to shove bullets into the gun fast enough to match the rate of fire.
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Sep 24, 2019 14:15
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Modifying RPG warheads to make more boom is a time-honored tradition going right back to the PAVN during the Vietnam War. Clever dudes in Iraq and Syria have taken it to an art form: This is an older collection of pics but it is absolutely awesome. My weapon of choice is the Hind/Frogfoot rocket launcher welded on the back of a Toyota.
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Sep 24, 2019 14:33
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MikeCrotch posted:The main issue with shaped charges is that they have a very focused explosion, so you will get absolutely hosed up if you're standing in front of one when it goes off, but just being slightly off to the side can leave you mostly unharmed, while a HE or frag round would ruin everyone in the blast radius. You can see a bunch of examples of this from Syrian civil war videos where people were sniping each other on hilltops with ATGMs (do not watch these). It might not have all the fragmentation of the purpose-built anti-personnel round, but the HEAT RPG warhead still has four times as much explosive in it as an M67 hand grenade. Sure the HEAT jet might miss you but you're still copping that blast and fragments of the casing.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:05
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bewbies posted:
It's a MLRT
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Sep 24, 2019 15:12
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chitoryu12 posted:The SAW is basically a step between old light machine guns and automatic rifles (like the BAR, RPK, and Bren) and heavier GPMGs (like the M60, PKM, and M240). As technology advanced, assault rifles and battle rifles became capable of putting down similar amounts of fire as the old magazine-fed LMGs. The M249 takes the basic idea of a GPMG and scales it down to use lighter ammunition, creating a belt-fed machine gun capable of being operated effectively by a single soldier. This allows for increased squad-level firepower by letting you put even more rounds down range without needing a dedicated MG team. From people I've asked about the use of the things, there's a lot less functional differentiation as much as practical role differentiation. A SAW is an SAW because it's a belt fed that one guy can manage. You can fire it from the shoulder in theory, but the bigger thing is that the one guy can and does manage it. This has upsides and downsides. When it comes time to move, a SAW with all its ammo nice and tidy in a nutsack can come along. Meanwhile a GPMG is like as not to have a guy gunning it, and a guy paying attention to the ammo supply, linking new belts to the old belt so it's got sustained fire. For a SAW, you'd check up with the dude and if he doesn't have enough fire in it, have him top off before doing whatever he's covering. Unless it's static defense, you basically won't be connecting belts end to end on a SAW. At least that's what the guys who've done all the fancy military machine gun theory learning have told me. This gives me the impression that a SAW is a system involving a machine gun that is self-contained on its gunner, and can be moved by one man at any given time, more than a particular case statement on chambering, though chambering is a decent indicator of whether a gun is meant for that role? Randarkman posted:Yeah, if you look up images of the magazines you can see how they (DP and PPSh) are quite different from each other. The difference isn't just in the way the magazine feeds, it's how much internal friction is generated redirecting the spring force. Drums have a shitload of internal force going around, you see how the central springy bit has a rolling pusher for the inner circle of rounds and a lip to push the outer circle, that's so the force isn't transmitted through seventy-two individual rounds pushing against the magazine's spiral and having their force redirected fully into the next round. Even then there's a lot of push, and you see that those rounds aren't held perfectly still inside the drum, they can move one way or another, so there's a lot of potential for jams. You run into similar things on helical magazines, because they're pushing through a crazy spiral too. The DP's pan has each round sitting independently with teeth holding them in the right position, so they aren't depending on a conga line of rounds pushing right, it's only a factor of the feed ramp pulling one round out of there and down into the lips. It's kind of like a one-piece non-flexible belt in that the rounds are independent of each other.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:47
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https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1176541685704286208 Ah, rip to the Admiral Kuznetsov
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Sep 24, 2019 21:03
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zoux posted:Ah, rip to the Admiral Kuznetsov Akademik Lomonosov, you mean. I'm sure it's just teething problems.
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Sep 24, 2019 21:15
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The Russian Navy has lost boats to more embarrassing causes, namely the minelayer Yenisei and the protected cruiser Boyarin
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Sep 24, 2019 21:18
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