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The rules (especially #1 and #2 in the OP) are not great. Yes they are better than the willy nilly approach most people have, but they also promote a weak-tight negotiating mentality that will hold people back in the long run When I got my current job I opened the negotiation with an ask of ~40% more than what I was previously making and my new employer willingly met that ask. I told them what my previous salary was to give them context. The narrative was: I'd been underutilized in my previous role and had exactly the skillset they were looking for to take them through their next phase of growth. They knew what they were getting and I knew exactly what I was worth. I was also able to back channel through a friend who helped present my case to my employer This had everything to do with having done my homework beforehand. If you do sufficient homework, you have the power to set the table for a negotiation that will get you what you want. Just a thought 
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Sep 21, 2019 20:48
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If the company agreed to a number they almost certainly would have agreed to that number if they had started lower and you had countered to it. The obvious downside of your approach is that you entirely cut out the possibility that the company starts at a higher number.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:02
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got off on a technicality posted:The rules (especially #1 and #2 in the OP) are not great. Yes they are better than the willy nilly approach most people have, but they also promote a weak-tight negotiating mentality that will hold people back in the long run You had a realistic goal and you met it, congratulations! How do you know they wouldn't have offered you a 45% raise if you'd stayed tight lipped?
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Sep 21, 2019 21:24
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got off on a technicality posted:When I got my current job I opened the negotiation with an ask of ~40% more than what I was previously making and my new employer willingly met that ask. I told them what my previous salary was to give them context. The narrative was: I'd been underutilized in my previous role and had exactly the skillset they were looking for to take them through their next phase of growth. They knew what they were getting and I knew exactly what I was worth. I was also able to back channel through a friend who helped present my case to my employer You likely could have gotten more money with less effort by keeping your mouth shut.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:41
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Never give a number. Know what you are worth. Ask for a lot more than what you want, since they will always counter you. If you get more, keep your trap shut and take it. Some things are worth money but aren’t cash (my new job pays so much of my health plan, it’s like making $20k more elsewhere, pre ipo stock may be worth zero but still leave you tax liability).
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Sep 22, 2019 04:46
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got off on a technicality posted:The rules (especially #1 and #2 in the OP) are not great. Yes they are better than the willy nilly approach most people have, but they also promote a weak-tight negotiating mentality that will hold people back in the long run Also, if you really knew exactly what you were worth you would frame it as a comparison to the market average and not to your previous job. Getting 40% more money is not impressive if you're still below the market average.
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Sep 22, 2019 18:44
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Just want to reiterate that the thread title is very wise. Never say a number, even if you think you know what you're worth. I took a job for much less than I was worth so I could get back into my profession after getting laid off. Let's say my salary there was $X. I knew that someone with my level of experience could get $1.75X in a traditional role at a sensible company. I interviewed for a position at a tech company, and knowing that they sometimes have insane salary tables, I was able to fend off the recruiter's money questions by saying "It'll depend on responsibilities and benefits" (this is in CA, right after they passed that law allowing applicants to keep salary history private). I assumed I could get up to $2X if I got the job but I didn't actually have a clue. When the offer call came in, I managed to avoid the question of salary until the recruiter absolutely had to get me to agree to a number, so she offered up the range -- to which I said, while trying not to drive off the road in shock, "That'll work, but I just want to mention that I don't need benefits as I already get them through my husband." She took the hint and called me back to offer me the top of the range, which was $2.5X. And of course this thread would've told me to negotiate anyway. But I'm happy with what I got, and I got it by keeping my mouth shut for as long as possible. Obviously YMMV, but know that sometimes you can't be quite sure how a company is going to value you.
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Sep 23, 2019 01:33
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oopsie rock posted:Just want to reiterate that the thread title is very wise. Never say a number, even if you think you know what you're worth. Just had a very similar situation. Never gave a number, got the range from the recruiter (with the top being well past what my say yes number was), and they ended up coming in above their range when I told them I had another offer on the table. Never say a number.
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Sep 23, 2019 03:11
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b-b-b-but i got $1.4X my salary at my old job saying a number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Sep 23, 2019 13:38
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Also having just demonstrated yourself to be both difficultly replaceable and a flight risk, you are now a risk to the company. I need to continue interviewing, then. Thanks.
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Sep 23, 2019 13:45
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:b-b-b-but i got $1.4X my salary at my old job saying a number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Sep 23, 2019 14:00
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I actually think maybe that guy shouldn't be poo poo on quite so much, he was a bit of an arrogant dick about it (but then again, so am I  ) but he does have a valid point in there: that doing all your homework and knowing your poo poo before you go into the negotiation is really crucial, and so is the simple ability to sit there and coolly, confidently say "I need $X to make this happen."Your current salary is actually not germane to the negotiation even if the other party knows it. The only relevant datum (from their perspective, and assuming they have decided they want to hire you) is how low a number you will accept. The whole reason not to tell them your current salary is to convince them it will take a higher number. (Also, if it's a big company they probably already know your current salary; that information is available to them without having to ask you.) The biggest thing in a negotiation is being willing to walk away--or convincing the other party you're willing to walk away. So actually the biggest reason for me to never tell them my current salary is gently caress you, you don't need to know that. It's less about the specific number and more about presenting a super confident air of "I have many options, why should I sign on with you?" Which is exactly what employers are always pushing on prospective employees. No, I'm not going to tell you that. Stop wasting my time or I'll just move on. You can do all of this in a polite, professional, even friendly, but firm way. Practice makes perfect. Now all of that said--don't name a loving number, seriously. It's all downside for you. A lot of employers only care about hiring the cheapest minimally qualified candidate--you don't want to work for them. Just walk away if they really put the screws to you.
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Sep 23, 2019 14:54
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Eric the Mauve posted:that doing all your homework and knowing your poo poo before you go into the negotiation is really crucial, and so is the simple ability to sit there and coolly, confidently say "I need $X to make this happen." So I actually wanted to get to the interesting and productive meat of the conversation that might have been on the bone, namely: How do you know they wouldn't have offered you a 45% raise if you'd stayed tight lipped? This is an important question because you COULD know that they would not offer 45%. I've fluctuated through a lot of organizational hierarchy points and variously been an architect, a manager, an engineer, a consultant, without a well defined "Well this is higher ranking so Dwight does X" ordering. (The secret is I do what people will pay me the most to do that still aligns with my moral boundaries). Being a manager I have experience knowing what our company would offer people, what people would ask for, and what they would effectively balk at, specifically where they'll turn down our offer and it doesn't turn out to just be a bluff. I speak with other people in software about the rates they're getting and paying. I look at what jobs are posted at, and know what people offer when I hold out on them. Consequently I know that it's powerfully unlikely for me to get a 10%+ pay raise moving jobs anymore, unless I move to the Bay Area, and that a fair few offers where I hold out for the best someone will offer will come in under what I make now, and that when I tell them a number that would be a 5% raise that I'll be outside their range. When I was starting out, I didn't have this information, I didn't have as good a BATNA, and playing tight had the highest expected value. People starting out need simple and easy rules that will work for the circumstances they are in.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:54
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:When I was starting out, I didn't have this information, I didn't have as good a BATNA, and playing tight had the highest expected value. People starting out need simple and easy rules that will work for the circumstances they are in.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:50
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So I'm currently making 122 base as a consultant, looking to move back into industry. I interviewed at a small (for the industry, still 5k+ employees) and the HR person came back and said they had positive feedback, the role typically pays 100 with 14-28% bonuses (about double what I'm getting now), and asked what range I was looking at. I said I'd been targeting 130 and she said she would relay that information but it sounded like they're extremely unlikely they would be able to meet that. I do really like the company and I would gladly take 120 to work there, I think 115 is the lowest I would go and I would probably need to mull it over at that rate. I've also interviewed at another company and have a verbally spoken up about setting up an onsite interview at a 3rd place but no official confirmation yet. For both of those places they insisted on a number and I gave 130-140 as my ballpark desired salary. However things have been slow/quiet at these other two companies, onsite interview with company 2 was 7 business days ago and the screener call where we walked about setting up an onsite with company 3 was 4 days ago. Quick summary: Company 1: Had a positive onsite interview but salary range they gave is a bit low. I think it's pretty likely I will receive an offer soon. Company 2: Had what I thought was a positive onsite interview but haven't heard back in 1.5 weeks. I did talk to friends who worked there and they said their decision making process is pretty slow. I dropped them a line yesterday just to see what the status is. Company 3: Spoke with them last week, hiring manager sounded eager to get an onsite set up but haven't heard from HR since. I've worked at company 3 before and would gladly do so again, company 2 is fine but probably the one I like the least of the 3 places (though still more than my current job). I guess I'm just throwing this information out there to hear some thoughts. Especially if I get an offer from company 1. I'm thinking I would try to see how fast I can get the other 2 to move and also how long I could stall before I have to give an answer. e: I'm also just feeling anxious and want out of my current job. I know objectively I'm doing fairly well and will have 3 onsite interviews out of the 4 places I've applied once company 3 gets back to me. I also applied to 2 new openings they posted on their company site last night. bamhand fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 14:24
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Dik Hz posted:Even all that being said, knowing the basics shows that you know what you're doing. If I want to convince you I'm a competent basketball player, I'm not going to do it by missing layups. I agree with the fundamental value, we might be at odds on how that guides your behavior. "Never say a number" is because as the person selling labor you are anchoring the top end of the negotiation when you say a number first. The desired outcome of "Never say a number" is to get the prospective employer to say a number first and anchor the bottom end of the negotiation, and you can then move up from there. This is the dominant play for most people reading this thread, because most people reading this thread are probably paid below market, know less about market pricing, and the prospective employer knows more about market pricing and will say something closer to the market price. "Never say a number" will get the negotiation to regress to the mean, and if you're underpaid, regress to the mean is helpful. If you're expensive then saying so up front saves everyone time and anchors the discussion away from the mean. But the odds that you a) are actually expensive b) have good information supporting the idea that you're actually expensive c) will do better by saying how much more expensive you want to become than you already are are small and so you're probably still better off never saying a number. My last job change I went from management back to IC and got ~9% bump in the process, and did say a number. When I leave this job for another one I probably will stay tight lipped because I don't have as good information to work with.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:51
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Case in point, car dealerships. They always name a number first on what they're selling: it's called sticker price, and it's so astronomically high that only an idiot actually pays it. And they do pretty well for themselves--because they have very good information and a lot of negotiating experience, whereas most When negotiating with a prospective employer, you probably have inferior information and less experience. You know just enough to be dangerous, i.e. just enough to accidentally hamstring yourself because you don't know just how underpaid you currently are, so they very badly want you to name a number first, and thus anchor too low and sell yourself at a bargain (for them). So don't name a number, unless you really, really know what you're doing and what the right number to name is.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:01
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Keep in mind that hiring some jamoke is not usually the highest priority for any of the individuals in the hiring process, so yeah, things move slow when you're on the other side of the table. Consulting bonuses tend to be a bit more reliable than industry bonuses in my experience and discussions with people on both sides of that line, so I wouldn't value a 14-28% industry bonus the same way I would value a 14-28% consulting bonus. You should always discount all bonuses, but I think the discount rate for industry should be a lot higher than the discount rate for consulting.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:37
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I know some people at the company so I can ask them about how the bonuses are. I got something like 5% this year for a bonus so I'm basically treating it as 0 for my current job. The HR person claimed theirs are fairly consistent so that's the only reason why I'm considering it at all.
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Sep 24, 2019 17:01
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Eric the Mauve posted:So don't name a number, unless you really, really know what you're doing and what the right number to name is.
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Sep 24, 2019 17:55
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I just got a job offer that is $15k more than I make now. Super nice. Only issue is, the offer is technically from a competitor, and my offer letter from my current company has a non-compete for 1 year. However, we have seen people come and go from competitors, including one of our VPs. I'm honestly not sure what to do.
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Sep 24, 2019 18:34
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quote:You maybe look at "not name a number" in Poker terms, but the information asymmetries in poker are themselves symmetrical (everyone's info asymmetry is the same outside of player behavior), while in job negotiation they're anything but. There's also an uncomfortably good chance, depending on how large your current and prospective companies are, that they actually already know how much (generic you) make or can verify it. There's no benefit to naming a number for like 99% of everyone. As an example of this, my first job was with a large company who had a phone # for employment verification. The automated system would confirm your dates of employment, whether you were eligible for rehire or not, and what your final salary was.
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Sep 24, 2019 19:13
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seiferguy posted:I just got a job offer that is $15k more than I make now. Super nice. Only issue is, the offer is technically from a competitor, and my offer letter from my current company has a non-compete for 1 year. However, we have seen people come and go from competitors, including one of our VPs. I'm honestly not sure what to do. Depending on where you are and the content of the non-compete, it is very probably not enforceable.
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Sep 24, 2019 19:44
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seiferguy posted:I just got a job offer that is $15k more than I make now. Super nice. Only issue is, the offer is technically from a competitor, and my offer letter from my current company has a non-compete for 1 year. However, we have seen people come and go from competitors, including one of our VPs. I'm honestly not sure what to do. Take the offer. Tell noone where you are moving. Don't worry about it :P
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Sep 24, 2019 22:02
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Zauper posted:For most startups, the exercise price is going to be low. The 409A assessment factors in the illiquidity of the stock in the pricing of the options. I joined the company I'm at right after a round that valued the stock at say $1 per share. My options were priced, after the 409A, at $0.1. So theoretically they are already in the money, before anything happens. I'm not exercising them -- there are good reasons not to want to pump money into your employer -- but for me, that cost is not really a big loss. Wait a minute, you were issued options at a strike price of $0.10 per share when your company's common stock was valued at $1.00 per share??? Issuing options in the money is a huuuuuuge no-no. Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 23:01
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Yeah this. You maybe look at "not name a number" in Poker terms, but the information asymmetries in poker are themselves symmetrical (everyone's info asymmetry is the same outside of player behavior), while in job negotiation they're anything but.
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Sep 25, 2019 00:00
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Vox Nihili posted:Wait a minute, you were issued options at a strike price of $0.10 per share when your company's common stock was valued at $1.00 per share??? Huh? 409A assessment is an audit that determines the fair value of your common stock. The audit set the price at ~$0.10 per share, while the most recent investment, which occurred prior to the assessment, valued the company at ~$1 per share. The 409A assessment creates a safe harbor that prevents the tax concerns of issuing options in the money. However, it's often the case that the audit comes in below how venture (or an exit) would value the company at that time. Our most recent 409A is still pretty significantly under half of what our second round last year came in at.
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Sep 25, 2019 03:08
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Vox Nihili posted:Wait a minute, you were issued options at a strike price of $0.10 per share when your company's common stock was valued at $1.00 per share??? Is there a problem with that in the US, perhaps tax related? Because it’s fine here, but I know we issue RSUs to our American colleagues.
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Sep 25, 2019 03:18
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Beefeater1980 posted:Is there a problem with that in the US, perhaps tax related? Because it’s fine here, but I know we issue RSUs to our American colleagues. There's a problem with issuing options in the money in the US. However... the fact that the strike price is less than the investment valuation is not surprising or at all uncommon - it is frankly expected. Investors are generally paying a preferred price for preferred stock, which will be handled differently than common stock in certain situations -- e.g. first cash out, certain rights common stockholders won't have, etc. The 409A assessment has you pay a third party audit firm to determine the fair market value (FMV) for your company, which creates a safe harbor if you use that price so long as the auditors were not misled. So if FMV from the auditor post-investment was $2M and the investment was at $20M post, you'd wind up with a situation like the one I described - your option is in the money, relative to the most recent investment, but that investment does not set your FMV (though it is used as a factor in the audit).
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Sep 25, 2019 13:43
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Hoodwinker posted:So here's my current situation: Update: I reached out to literally my only other contact at Company 1 and asked them politely if they could pass the message onto my original contact that Company 2 made me a material offer. My contact ended up calling me and we chatted for a bit, wherein I explained I'm in a tough position here because I can't exactly sit on this offer from Company 2 for two weeks while they figure their poo poo out. She agreed that it was tough and said at least that if things don't work out, I'll basically stay "approved" in the company system so if we touch base later for future opportunities that poo poo could get expedited that way. I told her I'll keep that in mind and that I'm going to sleep on things for a couple of days here while I figure out my game plan. I decided that I was going to negotiate with Company 2 to push the offer higher towards what I want and also make the push for the signing bonus. If Company 2 bristles, I can just tell them I have to think for a while and wait until Company 1 gets back to me. Then I get an email this morning when I arrive at work from Company 1 saying that they're going to know by the end of the day if the position is approved and can then make me a material offer going from that. So it sounds like I'm worth something to them after all. I have a call scheduled in about two hours with the rep from Company 1 who wants to make sure she understands my salary expectations for the meeting today where the approval process will be happening. How do I play the call? All advice is still pointing towards, "Don't give a number, idiot." and I respect that. I'm not interested in giving a number. I'm also not terribly worried about tanking things on their end by refusing to name a number or a range myself because obviously if they've expedited this poo poo then they want me. I'm thinking of just asking her to give me the range for the position and I can tell her if that sounds interesting or not. How do I handle this, goons?
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Sep 25, 2019 14:50
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Sounds like you know what to do, and your BATNA is good. Go into that meeting like you're King poo poo of gently caress Mountain and get that $$$.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:17
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You're at the finish line. You have full knowledge that the offer is coming. You have no obligation to divulge a salary expectation. You can ask what their expectations are and give nothing in return, so long as you're happy taking the offer from #2. "My understanding is that an offer will be forthcoming this afternoon if the position is approved by management. I will need to see the full terms of the offer before making a decision. If after reviewing the offer I feel that the salary needs adjustment, I will send you the salary figure that I would feel comfortable accepting. Can you give me an idea of what I can expect to see?" If they press you on a number, repeat variants of "I'm sure we can come to terms once I see the text of the offer letter. I will give any competitive offer my full consideration" until they give up.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:26
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Not a Children posted:You're at the finish line. You have full knowledge that the offer is coming. You have no obligation to divulge a salary expectation. You can ask what their expectations are and give nothing in return, so long as you're happy taking the offer from #2.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:37
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Hoodwinker posted:Update: Hey you're saying a lot of things in this post, but one of the things you're saying subtly is that you really want a job with Company 1 and don't really want a job with Company 2. That idea's gonna gently caress with your ability to get paid, so, you need to get your head square on which of two things you want: Continuing to let that idea live in your head, or getting paid. To assist you in the decision you should be making, do you really want to be working at company that's so dysfunctional that they can't issue offers in a timely fashion without it becoming an emergency?
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Sep 25, 2019 16:52
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Hey you're saying a lot of things in this post, but one of the things you're saying subtly is that you really want a job with Company 1 and don't really want a job with Company 2. That idea's gonna gently caress with your ability to get paid, so, you need to get your head square on which of two things you want: Continuing to let that idea live in your head, or getting paid. If Company 1 comes back below what I can push Company 2 to, I'm going to go with Company 2. I'll know the shape of an actual offer by today at 4:15pm if Company 1 is even going to make one, and unless they blow my socks off I'm going to shoot off an email to Company 2 letting them know to bump their offer by $15k with a $10k signing bonus and I'm theirs. I'm using this thread as a space to dump my anxiety but I'm otherwise trying to run optimal game theory in real life. I had the conversation with Company 1 just a moment ago and she said the average pay for roles in the dev space is $110k which I told her was too low but refused to give a range otherwise. It'll be up to them at this point to return with something more attractive.
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Sep 25, 2019 17:00
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lol, I love the “this is the average pay for $ROLE” poo poo. Yes, I know. But I am far from average, so let me know what you’re prepared to offer and then we’ll talk. Look forward to hearing back from you. Bye.
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Sep 25, 2019 17:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:lol, I love the “this is the average pay for $ROLE” poo poo.
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Sep 25, 2019 17:25
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Hoodwinker posted:Yeah I was frankly not expecting such a non-answer so I didn't have anything prepared for it, which is why I eventually landed on just saying, "Yeah that number is too low."
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Sep 25, 2019 17:28
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Hoodwinker posted:I hear you and agree with you that there is a definite influence on my decision. However I'll challenge the idea that me saying, "I have another offer on the table, you need to speed things up," is an emergency. From everything I've read in the thread that's just Negotiation 101. What I'm saying re: an emergency, is I'm trying to point out that they are dysfunctional in their hiring process: after they decide they want to hire you (at least as early as last Friday), they still cannot effectively communicate an offer by today. This is a marginal problem, but it means that they're at a competitive disadvantage in hiring; anyone who can get enough offers rapidly enough that they get to choose won't be working at Company 1, barring Company 1 paying over market. They have not demonstrated to you that they pay over market. Think about what that hiring process selects for and think about how that will be all of your coworkers. To boot, you communicated a nudge of "I have other opportunities so get your act in gear" and then they expedited and still aren't getting to you before this afternoon. None of these are deal killers or red flags that should keep you from accepting a good offer, but they ARE bad signs and you should incorporate these data points into your calculus of preference. At the end of the day you're the one who'll be shoveling poo poo for them so you need to pick the thing that will make you happy. Don't worry about satisfying me or any other poster in this thread. I just want you to include these things in your decision making process as you're figuring out what will make you most happy.
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Sep 25, 2019 17:52
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:What I'm saying re: an emergency, is I'm trying to point out that they are dysfunctional in their hiring process: after they decide they want to hire you (at least as early as last Friday), they still cannot effectively communicate an offer by today. This is a marginal problem, but it means that they're at a competitive disadvantage in hiring; anyone who can get enough offers rapidly enough that they get to choose won't be working at Company 1, barring Company 1 paying over market. They have not demonstrated to you that they pay over market. I'm trying to grab as much data as I can to make a fully informed decision here. Like I said I'm trying to dump most of my anxiety into the thread instead of into the recruiters.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:20
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