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T-man posted:Counterpoint: that only really makes sense as an argument under capitalism. You need more and more software, constantly updating and changing, made by finite, mostly fixed teams paid wages to 1) compete against your enemies and 2) own the code and make money off it. And we don't need that; Sure, a lot of documentation slows you down, but just how many core packages are there compared to the horde of FOSS nerds ready and willing to program collaboratively? You can increase the overall cost of designing software if you don't need to constantly create version 3.0 now with Jucerio comparability built in and therefore need to make less software. FOSS nerds hate maintaining things and based on Linux userland want to constantly recreate the same things in a slightly different way instead
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Sep 24, 2019 23:29
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Tunicate posted:Foss devteams are awful to work with as well "Listen if you can't read code maybe you shouldn't be using software, snowflake  "
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Sep 24, 2019 23:30
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Basically put your Grace Hoppers back in charge instead of your Bill Gateses and Richard Stallmans.
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Sep 24, 2019 23:34
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T-man posted:Counterpoint: that only really makes sense as an argument under capitalism. You need more and more software, constantly updating and changing, made by finite, mostly fixed teams paid wages to 1) compete against your enemies and 2) own the code and make money off it. And we don't need that; Sure, a lot of documentation slows you down, but just how many core packages are there compared to the horde of FOSS nerds ready and willing to program collaboratively? You can increase the overall cost of designing software if you don't need to constantly create version 3.0 now with Jucerio comparability built in and therefore need to make less software. At my last job my boss told me of how awful it was to work at his previous company, because you had to write design documents and file change forms and have design reviews and implementation plans and certifications and it took 6 months just to get something to the point where you could start programming so everything had deadlines at least 2-3 years out and I'm just sitting there thinking "we've just worked the last couple weekends to poo poo out a proof of concept fully featured implementation for a company that hasn't even decided to buy our software yet, what you're describing sounds amazing". If you're wondering: no, of course they did not buy our software, they bought the software of a company that didn't do jack poo poo other than say "here's what we can do, here's our pricing, whatever".
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Sep 24, 2019 23:34
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Cocoa Crispies posted:the excuse is that we wouldn't have any loving software if we did it that way quote:“Our requirements are almost pseudo-code,” says William R. Pruett, who manages the software project for NASA. “They say, you must do exactly this, do it exactly this way, given this condition and this circumstance.” the cost of failure isn't low. it's time. the time you have spent deploying your app while it sucks rear end and tells you to make a u-turn into a ditch is time spent informing any possible users you would have that your software sucks rear end and isn't worth using, and that's before you have to go back and fix the poo poo that was shoved out because it mostly sort of works in some cases and even the "well it's just people walking on a street" can bleed into "we're using the same api for our self driving cars" or "we outsourced our programming because it was cheaper and oops the MCAS is dunking planes into the ground". builders don't accept "actually we should use plastic instead of concrete for this building" with no justification when it's halfway done, software development shouldn't either Shame Boy posted:At my last job my boss told me of how awful it was to work at his previous company, because you had to write design documents and file change forms and have design reviews and implementation plans and certifications and it took 6 months just to get something to the point where you could start programming so everything had deadlines at least 2-3 years out and I'm just sitting there thinking "we've just worked the last couple weekends to poo poo out a proof of concept fully featured implementation for a company that hasn't even decided to buy our software yet, what you're describing sounds amazing". are we coworkers? because the number of one off poo poo we've done for people who proceed to be completely uninterested in our product is laughably high
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Sep 24, 2019 23:52
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foobardog posted:Oh, mine isn't, I just got shunted to the test code writing bitch duty years ago (SDET is what they call it). Though to be honest being able to tell other devs they are bad and should feel bad is worth it, I guess. If you hate a dev how much bigger of a pain in the rear end can you be to them without getting yelled at
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Sep 24, 2019 23:58
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Zamujasa posted:blah blah NASA quote blah blah I mean, if your spec is pseudocode, doesn't that just mean you're a human to machine translator for the REAL programmer who wrote the spec?
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Sep 25, 2019 00:01
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500 good dogs posted:If you hate a dev how much bigger of a pain in the rear end can you be to them without getting yelled at I'm actually a huge wimp, but if I write a bug against you, do know I will downright point you to the bad line of code you let through and should have caught long before you even sent it to me and shove your face in it. Because unlike many testers I can read code too. (It's actually to their benefit, it saves time on them looking at a set of repro steps unsure how to fix it. I also usually do it during code review, too.)
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Sep 25, 2019 00:06
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take this nerd poo poo to yospos
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Sep 25, 2019 00:09
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bump_fn posted:take this nerd poo poo to yospos lol
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Sep 25, 2019 00:10
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bump_fn posted:take this nerd poo poo to yospos https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1176224835770429441
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Sep 25, 2019 00:12
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Lol if you think testing as a Dev is a joke you should try doing it as a designer, even though you have people for QA who can't seem to catch poo poo like your main header missing or images being wildly out of proportion. Then you get to be rude to two different groups of people. No, having the main title of a piece of content as Lorem Ipsum doesn't mean you should hard-code that in. To be fair I accepted this job even though they told me up front that we had to put a product out in a couple of months that should have taken a year because there was a partner meeting on that date and they needed to show it was done. That's on me I guess. Edit: I guess more thread appropriate content is in order. I got fired when my daughter turned a month old because "we can't just keep you around forever just because you had a kid". The owner then gloated about how generous he was being by giving me my legally mandated severance package and how he really didn't have to give me anything if he didn't want to. The reason I was fired was I came along with a company they bought, then pivoted away from our core business into lovely poorly thought out cash grabs that involved my skills a lot less, so I basically had to make work for myself learning new things to keep myself busy. The CEO once micromanaged me by sitting behind me at my desk and telling me what colors to pick for about 4 hours and talking down at me whenever I told him those colors were bad. He didn't learn my name in a year even though I have the same name as him. Then I worked as a teacher at a university where if they didn't get at least 10 students for your class, you had to teach for half your salary. You weren't given a heads up either. You just showed up the first day of class and "whoops guess I'm not buying the good toilet paper this semester". You were also not paid during summer or winter breaks, so at least a couple months out of the year. You only got assigned about 12 hours a week too at lovely intervals that usually meant you couldn't take another job and your contract said you couldn't teach anywhere else which lol of course everyone did. Maleh-Vor has issued a correction as of 01:53 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 01:33
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Software houses shouldn't exist. If there's a problem that can be solved with ADP, the party with the problem should develop a solution.
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Sep 25, 2019 01:59
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computer
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Sep 25, 2019 02:33
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Woof Blitzer posted:computer https://twitter.com/rSoftwareGore/status/1176520299682172928
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Sep 25, 2019 02:46
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foobardog posted:I'm actually a huge wimp, but if I write a bug against you, do know I will downright point you to the bad line of code you let through and should have caught long before you even sent it to me and shove your face in it. Because unlike many testers I can read code too. So you work extra hard at your job doing another potential worker's labor so you can be a dick to other computer touchers. And they say tech people have no class consciousness.
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Sep 25, 2019 03:08
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 I like it 
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Sep 25, 2019 04:56
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Shame Boy posted:At my last job my boss told me of how awful it was to work at his previous company, because you had to write design documents and file change forms and have design reviews and implementation plans and certifications and it took 6 months just to get something to the point where you could start programming you probably already know that this is completely normal for real-world engineering a nontrivial amount of labor goes into any given project before design ever begins. project planning is an essential step of the process that ultimately saves design time man-hours in the long run, which is why it's done that way. the for-profit companies designing all of this stuff in our capitalist hellworld can easily lose money if you hafta start redesigning things
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Sep 25, 2019 05:00
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Shame Boy posted:
I thought unions and, like, worker's rights didn't exist in Japan? Am I a dumb weeb?
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Sep 25, 2019 05:14
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T-man posted:I thought unions and, like, worker's rights didn't exist in Japan? Am I a dumb weeb? It's a complicated problem and has a few layers.
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Sep 25, 2019 05:26
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Inceltown posted:It's a complicated problem and has a few layers. Makes me cry.
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Sep 25, 2019 05:31
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Inceltown posted:It's a complicated problem and has a few layers. Like a ..... like a............... I'm drawing a blank.
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Sep 25, 2019 05:31
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T-man posted:I thought unions and, like, worker's rights didn't exist in Japan? Am I a dumb weeb? Japan is a glorious socialist utopia compared to the hellhole that is the US. Worker protections here are great, unions have teeth (though work more cosily with management than Nordic ones do) and the health insurance and unemployment insurance systems are worthwhile. The image everyone has of backbroken 28 hour per day salarymen is cultural pressure rather than legal 
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Sep 25, 2019 05:32
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Powershift posted:Like a ..... Like the pony jar.
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Sep 25, 2019 05:48
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Powershift posted:Like a ..... Ogre
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Sep 25, 2019 05:55
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Jerry Cotton posted:Like the pony jar. 
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Sep 25, 2019 05:56
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This morning on the always wonderful capitalism mouthpiece Marketplace Morning Report, they talked about new rules giving overtime pay to certain salaried people (though far less than originally planned under Obama, of course) and how it might lead to "lower morale" because "employees consider 'not having to track time' as a status symbol" 
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Sep 25, 2019 14:11
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Shame Boy posted:This morning on the always wonderful capitalism mouthpiece Marketplace Morning Report, they talked about new rules giving overtime pay to certain salaried people (though far less than originally planned under Obama, of course) and how it might lead to "lower morale" because "employees consider 'not having to track time' as a status symbol" It's dumb, but a lot of people really do think this way. At least until they receive their first check. One of my jobs, due to constant misunderstanding of what salary exempt is converted all the developers to hourly. They were all pissed about it, until they all got their first check with a few hundred bucks more due more than 40 hours worked. Some were still pissed because apparently not tracking their hours is worth hundreds of dollars to them.
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Sep 25, 2019 14:20
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Yeah, it's dumb. As an hourly, I lose about an hour and a half a week struggling with our Citrix-based clock system. I honestly wouldn't mind moving to salary, but the company would have to pay me more to reach the legal floor for that and they would rather pay me overtime.
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Sep 25, 2019 14:25
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Another "fun" salary thing I insist on mentioning any time I mention that company. Before they converted everyone to hourly, drat near everyone in company was salary. Why? Well they thought that simply having manager in someone's title, regardless of actual duties or income, qualified them for salary exempt. So loads of regular employees were titled as "______ Manager". Everyone in the call center was a "Customer Service Manager". After the hourly apocalypse, when they started converting people back to salary, they were making lots of teams linear so they everyone was technically a "manager" again, though I dunno how widespread that became or if it they actually used that to convert all those people back to salary as well.
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Sep 25, 2019 14:37
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wilderthanmild posted:It's dumb, but a lot of people really do think this way. At least until they receive their first check. One of my jobs, due to constant misunderstanding of what salary exempt is converted all the developers to hourly. They were all pissed about it, until they all got their first check with a few hundred bucks more due more than 40 hours worked. Some were still pissed because apparently not tracking their hours is worth hundreds of dollars to them. Oh I know, it just really felt like they were looking for any reason to paint "labor gets more money" in a bad light from labor's own perspective. They couldn't even really make it sound bad from a business perspective because they had to admit that most companies already adjusted to deal with this, so they tacked on but it might effect small / family owned local chains! Heartcatch posted:Yeah, it's dumb. To be clear they're still salaried, they just also have to track hours so they can get paid overtime.
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Sep 25, 2019 14:42
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wilderthanmild posted:Another "fun" salary thing I insist on mentioning any time I mention that company. Before they converted everyone to hourly, drat near everyone in company was salary. Why? Well they thought that simply having manager in someone's title, regardless of actual duties or income, qualified them for salary exempt. So loads of regular employees were titled as "______ Manager". Everyone in the call center was a "Customer Service Manager". After the hourly apocalypse, when they started converting people back to salary, they were making lots of teams linear so they everyone was technically a "manager" again, though I dunno how widespread that became or if it they actually used that to convert all those people back to salary as well. That reminds me, at my last job we had a bunch of banks as customers and I quickly discovered that literally everyone who works at a bank has the title of "vice president". Like some of our customers had 2,000+ active user accounts and all of them were vice presidents. For a while I thought it was some marketing gimmick, like it made you feel important if your account was managed by the ~vice president~, but I learned later that this is to get around some legal thing: apparently only vice presidents or above are allowed to sign or approve certain important paperwork, so bam now everyone's a vice president 
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Sep 25, 2019 14:50
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Maleh-Vor posted:He didn't learn my name in a year even though I have the same name as him. This is classic bastard boss dominance behaviour. 
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Sep 25, 2019 14:52
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Shame Boy posted:Oh I know, it just really felt like they were looking for any reason to paint "labor gets more money" in a bad light from labor's own perspective. They couldn't even really make it sound bad from a business perspective because they had to admit that most companies already adjusted to deal with this, so they tacked on but it might effect small / family owned local chains! Oh no, I got that. I was just whinging about my tracking system! I hate it so much. Shame Boy posted:That reminds me, at my last job we had a bunch of banks as customers and I quickly discovered that literally everyone who works at a bank has the title of "vice president". Like some of our customers had 2,000+ active user accounts and all of them were vice presidents. Everyone in our Marketing department is a manager or a senior *, but that's excessive. I didn't know there was a legal thing for vice presidency. That might explain why our Operations department has four VPs..
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Sep 25, 2019 14:56
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I have a cousin who got a job working for Goldman right out of college making some disgusting amount of money. He owns a house in Chris Christie county New Jersey and his wife doesn’t work but he was a VP there in his 20s. Now he’s a vp in his 30s at some other bank making an even more disgusting amount of money.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:15
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500 good dogs posted:If you hate a dev how much bigger of a pain in the rear end can you be to them without getting yelled at You can hate a dev and love their code. What matters is the code.
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Sep 25, 2019 16:33
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drat this computer touchers derail
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Sep 25, 2019 18:00
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anonumos posted:You can hate a dev and love their code. What matters is the code. This is why computer touchers don't tend to be social butterflies and that view of the world is myopic goodbye.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:09
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The Saucer Hovers posted:drat this computer touchers derail what's a matter, too l33t for you  yeah i dont know dick about software except to say the old cms I had to use to put stories up sucked rear end so I had to learn html last fall in order to do my job.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:11
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Heartcatch posted:Oh no, I got that. I was just whinging about my tracking system! That explains senior vice president of sanitation and acting divisional operations manager overseeing the structural dynamics of flow, Scruffy.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:40
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