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Cythereal posted:Worth remembering that Viconia is an out and proud priestess of one of the Realms' foremost gods of evil. Shar is the goddess of suffering, secrecy, and despair, and her priests are charged with making the entire world as miserable as they themselves are supposed to be so they'll throw themselves at Shar's feet for succor. yeah, but they're both insanely hot therefore
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Sep 24, 2019 23:46
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:yeah, but they're both insanely hot Eh. I had fun when writing the Valerie NPC mod, making it explicit that Valerie doesn't give a poo poo that Viconia's a drow. She loathes Viconia because Viconia's a Nightcloak of Shar.
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Sep 24, 2019 23:58
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It's interesting that Viconia talks all the time about being evil and despising elves, but when left to her devices between BG1 and 2 she settles down on a farm somewhere, and then in the epilogue she disobeys Shar and helps the elven city. She has probably the largest discrepancy between words and action out of all the recruitable NPCs.
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Sep 25, 2019 00:05
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Keldorn is popular because he's a silver fox.
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Sep 25, 2019 00:22
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Promethium posted:It's interesting that Viconia talks all the time about being evil and despising elves, but when left to her devices between BG1 and 2 she settles down on a farm somewhere, and then in the epilogue she disobeys Shar and helps the elven city. She has probably the largest discrepancy between words and action out of all the recruitable NPCs. I mean, going back to the talk of canon and taking what you like and ignoring what you don't... This is because Baldur's Gate 2 as a work of fiction is totally uninterested in the broader implications of Shar worship. In so far as Viconia is evil, the game frames her acts and beliefs of evil as a product of the fact that she still mostly buys into Drow cultural values (except the one where she should worship Lolth instead of Shar). Her faith is portrayed as highly personal and aesthetic. Viconia is an aesthete who likes beauty and the night/darkness and finds succor in those things. If you are someone who primarily is exposed to FR through videogames you would probably come away from BG2 thinking Shar herself is basically fine because the process of turning Viconia from evil is about shedding Drow cultural values, not any kind of religious reconsideration. You could probably argue that the reason Viconia's faith is so downplayed is probably a result of either A) the writers being chiefly interested in making her a desireable romance or B) the fact that clerics in D&D are largely written by secular middle class white nerds with little life experience and even less concept of what faith should look like, or some combination of the two. This is why I think mods that get into Viconia being a "Nightcloak" are probably misguided because, as far as Baldur's Gate 2 as a work of fiction is concerned, Viconia isn't a Nightcloak of poo poo. She's still evil as of BG2 tho, whether that stems from Drow values or her faith, so getting bisected by Carsomyr is not uncalled for. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 00:41
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Now this is coming from as someone who literally ran into Viconia last night but my blazing hot take is that if someone is in fact totally redeemable and able to repent then letting some lawful good meathead cleave them in half with a sword for the crime of shittalking your deity of choice is not a Heroic Action though that could be just be my personal bias against Lawful Good Human Male Paladins after having to deal with people playing them for the past 20+ years
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Sep 25, 2019 01:06
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Blockhouse posted:Now this is coming from as someone who literally ran into Viconia last night but my blazing hot take is that if someone is in fact totally redeemable and able to repent then letting some lawful good meathead cleave them in half with a sword for the crime of shittalking your deity of choice is not a Heroic Action She is not remotely interested in redemption at that point in time, and is in fact still an evil drow who thinks letting weaker people die when it's convenient to her is totally awesome. The whole "you meet her about to be unjustly burned as a witch" is good for clouding the emotions and pulling at the heartstrings but she is what she is. She should be put down for a whole host of reasons it's just that none of them are "is a Drow, at all".
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Sep 25, 2019 01:10
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Promethium posted:It's interesting that Viconia talks all the time about being evil and despising elves, but when left to her devices between BG1 and 2 she settles down on a farm somewhere, and then in the epilogue she disobeys Shar and helps the elven city. She has probably the largest discrepancy between words and action out of all the recruitable NPCs. It's been ages, but isn't her ending, if you romance her, that the hero partially redeems her and she ends up being assassinated because she was a traitor to Evil (tm)?
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Sep 25, 2019 02:04
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JustJeff88 posted:It's been ages, but isn't her ending, if you romance her, that the hero partially redeems her and she ends up being assassinated because she was a traitor to Evil (tm)? She’s assassinated by a servant of Lolth for being a not Evil Drow, not by a servant of Shar if that’s what you mean. But otherwise yes.
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Sep 25, 2019 02:27
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A high level Viconia can press turn undead and make Keldorn explode.
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Sep 25, 2019 02:38
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Viconia bullies Aerie which makes her cool, imo.
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Sep 25, 2019 05:20
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Y'all are forgetting that 2nd edition paladins are borderline psychopaths by alignment.
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Sep 25, 2019 06:31
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Mazzy Fentan is the only Lawful Good person to ever walk the Forgotten Realms and not be a dickhead facist.
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Sep 25, 2019 06:35
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That's because she can't Detect Evil and how seriously can anyone take a halfling?
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Sep 25, 2019 06:37
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Jan Jansen rules actually.
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Sep 25, 2019 11:07
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viconia never killed anyone who didn’t have it coming
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Sep 25, 2019 12:52
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I always took Viconia as a character who was, for the most part, neutral to neutral good, but everything in her bones and the way she was raised has her praying to an evil goddess because that's all she knows. That's a lot of reading between the lines, but her words and actions never match up. In fact, her entire romance, at least the first half, is her trying to spurn you because she's confused as gently caress about this "feeling called love".
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Sep 25, 2019 14:51
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The whole lawful-neutral-chaotic good-neutral-evil system makes no loving sense, then add in the race realism of early fantasy and you've got writers trying to humanise characters that are consistently lawful evil or true neutral or whatever by nature because of their race. It doesn't work very well because being consistently evil or adhering to a strict moral code or just being consistent at all is a pretty inhuman thing. I feel like that's what the state of d&d writing was around the time of the BG series anyway, basically writers exploring the inconsistencies of these systems. Keldorn and Viconia are both examples of that - Keldorn voluntarily chooses to obey this semi-psychotic moral code and you see the toll it takes on him when it results in him imprisoning his wife and basically orphaning his children. Viconia's character arc is about her discovering that actually she's not inherently cruel and that cruelty sucks and kindness begets kindness.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:01
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I never really got an answer to my "am I missing out on a ton of content by using a player-generated party" question, but I'm assuming the answer is "yes" from what you guys are talking about. I started my Sorcerer/Cavalier/Barbarian/Cleric/Swashbuckler/Jester run last night, and I haven't even left the intro dungeon and now I'm tempted to start over.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:08
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HoboTech posted:I never really got an answer to my "am I missing out on a ton of content by using a player-generated party" question, but I'm assuming the answer is "yes" from what you guys are talking about. I started my Sorcerer/Cavalier/Barbarian/Cleric/Swashbuckler/Jester run last night, and I haven't even left the intro dungeon and now I'm tempted to start over. In terms of quests, each ? Most ? Companions have a quest, and there are also romance quests. Some characters have arcs and plot lines that develop over time. As people have written, there are mixed views on the writing. Mechanically, there are only a couple bad characters. The characters will banter between each other some. Beyond that and one other quest kind of thing, nothing is barred or gated from using a custom party. I played with a custom party my first time or two I played.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:13
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HoboTech posted:I never really got an answer to my "am I missing out on a ton of content by using a player-generated party" question, but I'm assuming the answer is "yes" from what you guys are talking about. I started my Sorcerer/Cavalier/Barbarian/Cleric/Swashbuckler/Jester run last night, and I haven't even left the intro dungeon and now I'm tempted to start over. Stop starting over. The NPCs are the best companions. Min maxing is overrated in AD&D ruleset games.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:14
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HoboTech posted:I never really got an answer to my "am I missing out on a ton of content by using a player-generated party" question, but I'm assuming the answer is "yes" from what you guys are talking about. I started my Sorcerer/Cavalier/Barbarian/Cleric/Swashbuckler/Jester run last night, and I haven't even left the intro dungeon and now I'm tempted to start over. BG1 not lots, but BG2 is all about the NPCs. If you don't use them you're probably missing half the game's content. And jesters don't stay as powerful in BG2 because creatures get better saves and the confusion is much less effective. I also think the enhanced editions nerfed them by making bard song break invis? I haven't played one for ages but in an Ironman thread years ago I got a solo jester almost all the way through both games by abusing the bard song + invis, only died in watcher's keep.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:17
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:yeah, but they're both insanely hot I never really agreed, not racist but I don't think blonde hair looks good on drow
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Sep 25, 2019 20:26
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Chaos (the spell) breaks mage fights for a while, so I imagine jesters still do well in BG2, at least in the first half.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:26
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Yeah it'll fall off eventually since eventually the status effect just won't land reliably enough, and also there's a lot more dangerous foes immune to confusion in BG2, like liches and golems and stuff. Of course by then you can just let the NPCs carry you. Jan Jansen can easily solo the game, even if your protagonist did nothing but stand there sucking away half his xp. Aerie could also do it easily, and probably Keldorn too.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:34
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The Jester isn't the main character, and I was debating choosing them over a monk, but it's not a huge concern either way. I don't really care about romances (I've never found a good one in almost any game I've played), but the banter might be nice. I'll take a look at my game when I get home tonight and decide if I want to continue or not. Worst case scenario I can always play it again, which if that's the worst case then everything's good. Thanks to everyone for the input. rocketrobot posted:Stop starting over. The NPCs are the best companions. Min maxing is overrated in AD&D ruleset games. You're not my real Game Dad. Also it's not so much about min/maxing as it is "hey this would be a cool party composition". I like making characters/parties.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:07
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HoboTech posted:
That's what Icewind Dale is for though
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Sep 25, 2019 21:36
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rocketrobot posted:That's what Icewind Dale is for though I've honestly never played it, but I should probably look it up. Also I don't know if Temple of Elemental Evil falls into this thread but is it similar to that? Also just to clarify, "starting over" for me just means I get to play BG1 again.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:42
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Since PS:T is the talky game, should I put all my stat points into Charisma? Or do Wis or Int do stuff as well?Phlegmish posted:I never really agreed, not racist but I don't think blonde hair looks good on drow always looked white to me
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Sep 25, 2019 21:43
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Since PS:T is the talky game, should I put all my stat points into Charisma? Or do Wis or Int do stuff as well? Wisdom and Charisma should start at 18. Then Int and the others from there. At least I think that's how it goes.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:44
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HoboTech posted:I never really got an answer to my "am I missing out on a ton of content by using a player-generated party" question, but I'm assuming the answer is "yes" from what you guys are talking about. I started my Sorcerer/Cavalier/Barbarian/Cleric/Swashbuckler/Jester run last night, and I haven't even left the intro dungeon and now I'm tempted to start over. Baldur's Gate 1 has barely any party member reactivity but Baldur's Gate 2 party members have a ton. You are genuinely missing out not using the NPCs in BG2.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:47
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Start with 18 in wisdom, no matter what. Charisma isn't super necessary because most dialogues offer high wisdom and high charisma paths, though there are a couple of nice charisma-only resolutions (silent king for one.) Also the game usually checks for either high intelligence OR wisdom for the smart answers so intelligence is also not super necessary unless you're going mage (you are going mage.) That said, unlocking Dak'kon's past requires both high intelligence and wisdom.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:49
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Going Mage in Torment is pretty overrated imo. Once you get Wisdom and Charisma sorted out, Fighter lets you mindlessly massacre what mandatory combat there is with the Celestial axe. Mage is a lot of fuss for not much pay off.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:53
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Captain Oblivious posted:Going Mage in Torment is pretty overrated imo. Once you get Wisdom and Charisma sorted out, Fighter lets you mindlessly massacre what mandatory combat there is with the Celestial axe. My current PST party is me a mage, Ignus, and Dakkon. And three other people. For all the talk about PST's combat being poo poo, three caster's lighting everything on fire, turning the screen purple, summoning blobs of injures, barbed spikes, meteors, and summons never ever gets old or doesn't look cool as poo poo.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:55
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Suspicious posted:Start with 18 in wisdom, no matter what. Charisma isn't super necessary because most dialogues offer high wisdom and high charisma paths, though there are a couple of nice charisma-only resolutions (silent king for one.) Also the game usually checks for either high intelligence OR wisdom for the smart answers so intelligence is also not super necessary unless you're going mage (you are going mage.) That said, unlocking Dak'kon's past requires both high intelligence and wisdom.
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Sep 25, 2019 21:56
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That's the wise option. The charismatic option is to convince him there are more dead criminals than live ones so he's wasting his time on this mortal coil.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:05
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Honestly starting with an 18 Charisma is overkill. 16 Charisma is plenty for a good long while, spend two points on level ups later on, switch to Mage to cast Friends for the odd scenario where a REALLY high Charisma is needed. 16 base+2 from level ups+bonuses from permanent stat ups will handle 99% of charisma checks in the game. The only ones it doesn't handle are ones that have a Wisdom alternative, and one chat with Nordom that you can just Friends your way to 25 Charisma on.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:19
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Suspicious posted:That's the wise option. The charismatic option is to convince him there are more dead criminals than live ones so he's wasting his time on this mortal coil.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:19
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Captain Oblivious posted:Going Mage in Torment is pretty overrated imo. Once you get Wisdom and Charisma sorted out, Fighter lets you mindlessly massacre what mandatory combat there is with the Celestial axe. Thank you, I only have the EE for Android but I got bored/burned out after a while. I might try this approach later as I think it will work better for tablet play.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:44
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How in the hell are these going to work on console?
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Sep 25, 2019 23:11
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