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Blitz7x posted:As long as the group is mature and the ST is okay with it who cares if you roleplay a Ministry/Settite skinhead tattoo artist or whatever. It's just RP. gently caress off.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:16
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Blitz7x posted:As long as the group is mature and the ST is okay with it who cares if you roleplay a Ministry/Settite skinhead tattoo artist or whatever. It's just RP. No one is making themselves seem mature by not caring about a guy roleplaying a nazi 'or whatever'.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:24
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Oh, god.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:26
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GNU Order posted:Easy now, buddy. It’s a perfectly fair argument. Honestly, my point is simply that you cannot divorce the two. A book is the sum of its whole, not just certain parts. And I'm not trying to pile on you, but the same thing happens in this thread every time people say one without the other because the two can't be divorced. It's like trying to critique Fantasia and forgetting about the entire scene with the racist caricatures. You can try to ignore it, you can cut it out, but it was still there and the rest of the work is missing the context of it. It misses the critique and it belittles the past. That's not to say that Fantasia isn't a work of art, and in it are some really cool scenes. But watching it critically with an eye and understanding of where it came from is key in it, and any play in V5 worth its salt needs to know where it came from too. Honestly, they'd be better off iterating it again and progressing with any good mechanics and rewinding the metaplot to a place that isn't coming from that bad place.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:44
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I think the decision to consume art / pop culture made by people you find abhorrent is personal, and personally I'm not even consistent with these decisions. I will probably never watch another Woody Allen movie, I probably would watch a Roman Polanski movie I haven't seen yet. Shrug emoji. But, and I think this is kind of important, I'm not totally sure how many V5 players like... know about any of the poo poo we talk about here. I'd wager a lot of them don't know who Zak S is, or even about The Chechnya Incident. The question to me then becomes "how fundamental to the setting and system are these problematic elements?" And while I haven't read any of the books yet I have not gotten the sense that they're still fundamental elements of the game to a large degree. This is different than core mechanics, because those always happen. But if you didn't know about the shittyness of the V5 creators, or knew about it and decided to buy it anyway, it sounds to me from my limited knowledge of the situation that it would be really loving easy not to engage with anything problematic in the game. Having said ALL of that, I still have around zero interest in it and would feel a little lovely voting with my dollars for it. But that's a personal decision, IMO, and from what I can tell not one that forever taints the use of the game. But again, I might be weird - I lost relatives in the Holocaust and will go to bat for the Triumph of the Will being a great piece of cinema, or Martin Heidegger as being an incredible and useful philosopher.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:54
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mages...... are they good, or bad?
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Sep 25, 2019 21:16
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Bogart posted:mages...... are they good, or bad?
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Sep 25, 2019 21:18
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Jhet posted:Honestly, my point is simply that you cannot divorce the two. A book is the sum of its whole, not just certain parts. Fair enough. Even armed with the knowledge of the history of its writing, I didn’t find the V5 material to be dripping with subtexual facism. There is power play, and dominance/submission, and mature sexual stuff, and hell if you ctrl+f “rape” you’ll get at least one result off the top of my head. But like Digital Osmosis said, sometimes this stuff poisons the well for you, sometimes it doesn’t. For me it doesn’t, and I thoroughly enjoy all the new stuff even if I haven’t had a chance to use it in-game (except what they did to Lasombra/Oblivion  )
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Sep 25, 2019 21:22
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Bogart posted:mages...... are they good, or bad? It's good they exist as a category but a lot of them are very bad. That's why you need to go beat up the terrible ones and support the decent ones, and also organize wizard society to bring the good ones together in a revolutionary force to reach heaven through obsessive curiosity. e: and Adamant Hand martial arts Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 21:23
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Mages are bad because they have the power expel nazis but refuse to do so
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Sep 25, 2019 21:27
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Digital Osmosis posted:I think the decision to consume art / pop culture made by people you find abhorrent is personal, and personally I'm not even consistent with these decisions. I will probably never watch another Woody Allen movie, I probably would watch a Roman Polanski movie I haven't seen yet. Shrug emoji. It's a sample size of 4, but in this topic we had V5 fans who... ...asked if a Ventrue's gender-based feeding restrictions could work on transgender people. ...told a player dealing with sexual harassment to "try not being sexy." ...had their PC get #metoo'd with a false rape accusation and used said hashtag terminology. ...presumes that PvP is the default method of gaming and that players who don't like their PC getting Dominated by fellow PCs shouldn't bother playing Vampire. Granted this is a long thread and I may be missing some other V5 fans, but the above examples are the most obvious and recent. It doesn't make for a good look. On the other hand, there could be V5 fans who don't want to post in this thread given the (quite justified) criticism of the game. I mean, say what you will about Onyx Path, but they weren't so gauche as to describe Brujah vampire frenzying as "getting triggered" and doubling down by going "we're just using SJWs' own terminology against them." Libertad! fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 21:27
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The reason why other v5 fans don't post in this thread is because of the toxic nature of most (not all) requiem fans in this thread
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Sep 25, 2019 22:10
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Libertad! posted:It's a sample size of 4, but in this topic we had V5 fans who...
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Sep 25, 2019 22:19
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Metapod posted:The reason why other v5 fans don't post in this thread is because of the toxic nature of most (not all) requiem fans in this thread The requiem fans weren't the ones being toxic, friendo. Unless you're saying that everyone who doesn't like V5 must be a "requiem fan" in which case. Wow.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:46
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I thought the reason was because v5 posters tend to get probated and then banned from this thread for posting like it's 1999
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Sep 25, 2019 22:55
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Kurieg posted:The requiem fans weren't the ones being toxic, friendo. Nah I'm not saying that at all you can like or not like both games just fine. I'm saying the people who have been attacking me since day 1 for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the people who have been essentially me a lovely person for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the same people who have been doing that to me did not call out the real racist bullshit that was just said because they are hypocritical toxic motherfuckers that's what I'm saying
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Sep 25, 2019 23:05
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Yeah, every time V5 comes up there's a well of ugliness that just erupts and makes me feel really uncomfortable. Maybe it's mechanically alright but it's just too culturally odious for it's own good, especially when it has a successor game in VtR2e.
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Sep 25, 2019 23:23
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Metapod posted:Nah I'm not saying that at all you can like or not like both games just fine. I'm saying the people who have been attacking me since day 1 for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the people who have been essentially me a lovely person for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the same people who have been doing that to me did not call out the real racist bullshit that was just said because they are hypocritical toxic motherfuckers that's what I'm saying Is there an option to read this with punctuation?
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Sep 25, 2019 23:27
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Metapod posted:Nah I'm not saying that at all you can like or not like both games just fine. I'm saying the people who have been attacking me since day 1 for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the people who have been essentially me a lovely person for liking v5 have been requiem fans I'm saying the same people who have been doing that to me did not call out the real racist bullshit that was just said because they are hypocritical toxic motherfuckers that's what I'm saying
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Sep 25, 2019 23:37
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V5 is not as good as Requiem.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:07
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Well this got stupid fast. Hey thread, a friend and I are going to organize an in-character open mic and invite ALL the local LARPs to send their players. the idea being we organizers are ~mages~ and through the power of ~magery~ we have created an omnipresent pocket dimension where gribblies of every shape and size can come hang out as themselves. we assume it's going to be RP only, no chops/dice throwing, but i'm considering allowing just ONE contested chop, with no retests, in certain situations. Supernatural perception style stuff. Not enough to discourage non-players from showing up in a wacky costume, but enough grit for seasoned players to find interest in. Is this the worst idea or what? I can't wait.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:08
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It's a terrible idea that will blow up in your face. I cannot wait to hear your stories about it!
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Sep 26, 2019 00:12
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:Is this the worst idea or what? I can't wait. Maybe monitor the event for actual real-life jackasses. They can be dumb jackasses in character, that's fine, have fun, but I've heard there are enough horror stories that you might want to keep an eye out with a blind all-call like this.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:16
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both of us are extremely stringently anti-rear end in a top hat to the point of being fairly notorious in the area for instigating conflict, in the poetry world. i haven't LARPed in a decade and my partner never has. a bunch of my exes are still in the scene and i'm in no way hoping that they catch wind of this so i can have some hilarious juicy poo poo blow up in my bored understimulated lap.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:23
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Bogart posted:mages...... are they good, or bad?
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Sep 26, 2019 01:04
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Metapod posted:I know you don't actually care and just want to talk badly about a black man who went to jail but they actually did https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/12/23/vick-dogs Metapod posted:Mages are bad because they have the power expel nazis but refuse to do so You've been banned before for making rape jokes. Don't pretend you care about Social Justice.  And 5th edition is poo poo for many of the same reasons why VTM is just poo poo in general that needs to be burned. The FIRST edition of the Brujah rulebook had an neo-nazi as an pre-made character, not as a villain, an pre-made character (who anyone that used it should've experienced the characters slow and painful demise). It was ALWAYS racist bullshit that was made by white people who pretend to care about political oppression. There is no way you can reclaim it, it's the same as any RPG where the orcs are villains, you using the same racist bullshit that other white racists who loved the british empire used to endorse the mass murder of POC. VTM is poo poo and needs to stay dead. The fact that the new Chicago by Night claims to be progressive by laughing at the earlier edition's racism...only to THEN do something even MORE racist by having Chinatown be a MYSTERIOUS place where ANY western vampire who sets foot in it is murdered brutally by the not described at all Chinese Vampires. It's literally the year 2019 and people are having the same poo poo that racists used in fu manchu novels for lovely vampire stuff. VTR is good because it never tries to pretend that you will ever be a progressive or a rebel by being a vampire. You are THE villain. But you AREN'T a fascist by being that necessarily, you probably more of just an general monster. Either way, I failed to understand that months ago when I whined in this thread about it not being a communist murder fantasy...and then I read the original Brujah rulebook and learned the truth. OWOD is centrist bullshit at best and fascism at worse. But NWOD is straight-up admitting that it's doesn't have a political agenda and is all that you do with it. (Expectation is probably NuMage because the villains are pretty fascist, and I guess CTD.) Expect for beast...they should just throw that poo poo away already! TheNamedSavior fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 08:38
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TheNamedSavior posted:Expect for beast...they should just throw that poo poo away already!
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Sep 26, 2019 11:08
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Warthur posted:Still amazed that they made "buy the PDF of the Beast core book for cheap" a stretch goal on the Deviant Kickstarter. Aside from how lovely and pointless a stretch goal that is (would anyone have not backed if the stretch goal had simply not been there? I don't think so), why would OPP bother to remind people that the game line exists at all? I'd have thought at this stage they'd have issued informal instructions that We Do Not Mention That Game Line In Other Books and left the thing to rot on the vine. Yeah, this was the thing that pushed me into not backing. It sounds neat, but I was on the fence anyway.
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Sep 26, 2019 11:32
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Warthur posted:Still amazed that they made "buy the PDF of the Beast core book for cheap" a stretch goal on the Deviant Kickstarter. Aside from how lovely and pointless a stretch goal that is (would anyone have not backed if the stretch goal had simply not been there? I don't think so), why would OPP bother to remind people that the game line exists at all? I'd have thought at this stage they'd have issued informal instructions that We Do Not Mention That Game Line In Other Books and left the thing to rot on the vine. As of last night's backer update they did update this, you can now get the Chronicles core book, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage 2e, or Beast for $12 each, not sure if this was the plan all along (to keep expanding this tier with more and more options) or they got some sort of indication that Beast-only was a horrible idea and moved to mitigate it without making it look like they were back-pedaling.
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Sep 26, 2019 11:37
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I mean if it was Geist I would understand, that was their last game. Back the new game, get the last game cheap. Or a total medley, also makes sense. Back the new game, get the older games cheap. But going "Back the new game, get this very specific older game in particular cheaper"? That is just weird.
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Sep 26, 2019 11:48
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I haven't backed the last couple, but I believe the minor "add a discount to old games, building up until they all have one" milestones are standard.
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Sep 26, 2019 12:04
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I'd understand if it were physical copies - like, they have to get rid of them somehow, outright destroying books makes people feel icky for all sorts of good reasons, selling them to well-informed CoD fans who are probably well aware of the controversies is probably better than selling them to people who have no idea what they're getting into. But... it's PDFs. There's, to my knowledge, no ongoing cost involved in keeping the PDF in stock at DTRPG (though the space Beast takes up on OPP's hard drives is space which could be taken up with a product of higher creative merit and commercial value, like, for example, an empty PDF that fills up the space in question with blank pages). There's no need to get it off the shelves. And what's the best-case scenario here? Folk give Beast a second chance and the product line suddenly becomes profitable? At this point, OPP probably don't want Beast to suddenly find an audience because that means they have to think about supporting it again and the entire controversy gets raked up yet again. If anything, keeping it available is like having a live landmine just sat in the middle of the office floor, waiting for someone to eventually step on it and set it off again; as long as the thing exists and is offered for sale it's going to be an albatross around their neck and they'll get poo poo on for selling it, because why would you sell such a lovely product if you didn't like being covered in poo poo? They probably only keep it available for the sake of the long tail, and I bet the long tail on Beast is so small that if they pulled the product tomorrow and announced that the product line was cancelled, the lost revenue would be instantly made up by people swinging by and buying stuff who didn't feel like they could before. (Yes, I am arguing that a brief sales spike from pulling Beast would likely bring in more money than Beast would if it were left on DTRPG until the end of time). Dave Brookshaw posted:I haven't backed the last couple, but I believe the minor "add a discount to old games, building up until they all have one" milestones are standard. EDIT: Also "hey, we'll give you a chance to give us money for a product which has no manufacturing or shipping costs to us" is one hell of a non-prize. Warthur fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 12:10
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TheNamedSavior posted:You've been banned before for making rape jokes. Don't pretend you care about Social Justice. Lmao comparing joking around about the gently caress up nature that is vampire feeding with caring about real rear end racism. It's funny how you're talking about how v5 has all this racist poo poo while seemingly ignoring when someone in this thread says something racist that truly brings your point home and not sound like you're hating a game for some other weird reason.
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Sep 26, 2019 13:15
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Mulva posted:I mean if it was Geist I would understand, that was their last game. Back the new game, get the last game cheap. Or a total medley, also makes sense. Back the new game, get the older games cheap. But going "Back the new game, get this very specific older game in particular cheaper"? That is just weird. That's what's so baffling about this tier. "We'll offer you PDFs at a reduced price" is a tier they've offered before in previous Kickstarters, and the selection they started with makes perfect sense: the mortals rulebook and the three "core" gamelines the CofD first launched with. Then they look to expand that list and Beast is the first one they go with? I can only hope it's a sign of desperation, that Beast's sales lag behind everything else and this is a faint attempt to try to save it. Not that it should be saved. Bury Beast and move on.
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Sep 26, 2019 13:42
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Metapod posted:Lmao comparing joking around about the gently caress up nature that is vampire feeding with caring about real rear end racism. It's funny how you're talking about how v5 has all this racist poo poo while seemingly ignoring when someone in this thread says something racist that truly brings your point home and not sound like you're hating a game for some other weird reason. Are you talking about me not forgiving Vick? Is that the "someone in this thread says something racist" cornerstone of your church? Lumping the (once) highest paid NFL millionaire player's two years in minimum for recreationally torturing animals to death in with the real goddamn tragedy of mass-incarceration is a next level galaxy-brain take. His life wasn't ruined over bullshit marijuana charges, and my personal choice not to endorse him doesn't perpetuate the system that systemically eats minorities. It's absurd on its face, and if you didn't know this you wouldn't hide it behind vague, pearl-clutching references to a racism ITT. I realize it's a derail you desperately want to have, but I'm not going to continue it. PM me if you want to have this discussion, start a D&D thread if you want to learn more about mass-incarceration and for-profit prisons, or just read up on it yourself. But don't reduce mass-incarceration to a cheat-code gotcha in some woke-measuring contest to defend the honor of alt-right created roleplaying game Vampire the Masquerade Fifth Edition. That's legitimately disgusting.
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Sep 26, 2019 14:01
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Finished reading the first two Deviant manuscript previews and I'm really liking it. I skipped out on both Contagion and Geist (and Beast /shudder), but Deviant is doing all the things I like. I especially like that this game has really focused themes but a very broad approach to canon/continuity. Since the Deviants' powers are fueled by a soul that's been cracked open, that soul-wound can be caused by super-science, dark rituals, possession, gene hacking, cursed bloodlines, and a ton of other things. There's a lot of conscious effort to be able to emulate specific recurring kinds of characters. To that end, character creation ends up doing way way more to establish the setting of your particular game. Since Touchstones come in two flavors (your confidants and your hated enemies or ritual sites/labs), you end up determining several of them at the beginning along with the conspiracy itself. I'm also a huge fan of how this could enable an x-men game with a better metaphor than the original comic's hackneyed accidental gun rights metaphor for civil rights. Deviants have been wronged and used and discarded by the powerful and they're out for blood. Looking forward to seeing the full set of powers and scars. Octavo fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 14:02
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Hey folks. So the v5 chat here reminded me of the Dungeons & Dragons threads, where we had a rule about taking discussion of the creators and Zak S to the Industry thread and a more general Don't Do Edition Wars rule, because otherwise it was just people going in circles forever. I think it's worth putting a similar rule in here and seeing what happens. If anyone has thoughts I'm interested in hearing them. Also: just noticed that this thread was posted four years ago and the OP hasn't been updated in three. It might be worth considering a new thread soon! At minimum it would probably encourage some fresh interest. (I'd also suggest World and Chronicles of Darkness threads but I don't know if that's a great idea.)
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Sep 26, 2019 14:11
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Maybe split White Wolf properties (World of Darkness, Chronicles of Darkness) and Onyx Path properties (Scion, Trinity, the one with the lake monsters) into two threads? That might be a bit hard on OPP's games, though, so maybe not.
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Sep 26, 2019 14:12
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If anything I feel the split that makes sense is V5/WoD in one thread and CoD/General Onyx Path in the other.
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Sep 26, 2019 14:21
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Split into Good Games, Bad Games, Mage, and Metapod / Oberst Quarantine threads.
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Sep 26, 2019 14:23
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