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Straight White Shark posted:These things are fun to do to other civs and terribly unfun to have done to you--and there are potentially way more enemy spies doing unto you than you have spies to do unto them. It's a net negative for the game even before you take into account how much micro they take, and the only reason it's tolerable is that by the time spies come online you're already leaving the AI in the dust. You might be right, but I have a blast everytime I steal a great work or something like that Most infuriating when used against us, imo, are neutralize governor and partisans
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Sep 26, 2019 15:06
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Elias_Maluco posted:You might be right, but I have a blast everytime I steal a great work or something like that The ways to make this more fun are so easy, though. Steal a great work? You don't get one of your opponent's actual great works, but you do get, let's say, the option to ransom it back to them through unofficial connections (and gain gold) or the option to keep it (gain culture). Have one stolen from you? You get a popup saying something that should be yours is somebody else's now, or you get the offer to have it returned (and thus, you have the opportunity to tell them "get hosed" and you keep your gold if you don't care about them getting culture from it). Same with partisans. What if instead of actively getting hosed over, your opponent got a boost to troops attacking that city, or a boost to trade routes to that city if you're not at war on the basis that the partisans are smuggling things back, or something? All of these break the zero-sum structure and give an opportunity for one side to do something fun and helpful that doesn't kick the other side's dog; the benefit the first side gets is more than enough passive harm without a need for actively harming the other side.
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Sep 26, 2019 15:31
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It's kind of like a comeback mechanic, which the game desperately needs. The implementation as such isn't great. Maybe just have it be forge great work. Counterfeit money. Instead of having the negative experience of losing stuff to other players you can copy the answers from the top player and try to slingshot up into the running off their coattails
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Sep 26, 2019 15:54
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I did love the addition of the ability to breach dams, but yeah the last Gathering Storm game I played as Mansa Musa, my max-level spy was just fending off attempts to steal money from my big trade city every other turn.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:29
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:It's kind of like a comeback mechanic, which the game desperately needs. The implementation as such isn't great. I feel like espionage should also function as a method for materially damaging an opponent that you can't fight directly, though. It's a comeback mechanic for when you're behind in military strength, too And it hits a huge point of historical accuracy - sabotage in wartime (but then, historical accuracy is more important to me than most players I reckon)
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Sep 26, 2019 18:02
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I think it just needs some balance. For ex, partisians always raising 2 or 4 of the best unit you got, it gets really infuriating late game, when its gonna be tanks or modern armor. Maybe limit it to infantry types? Or the disable governor one, it blocks the governor for like 10 turns or something, and than you have to assign it again, which takes another 5. What about just removing the governor? The 5 turns it takes to put it back on is bad enough Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 18:15
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I feel like espionage should also function as a method for materially damaging an opponent that you can't fight directly, though. It's a comeback mechanic for when you're behind in military strength, too You can disrupt their industrial district which in turn will damage production for any city affected. But now we're back to the issue of AI civs not planning their districts efficiently, it's unlikely they have a built up industrial zone that affects more than 2, maybe 3 cities.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:16
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:It's kind of like a comeback mechanic, which the game desperately needs. yes this is literally exactly how Civ 5's espionage worked
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Sep 26, 2019 18:43
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Straight White Shark posted:yes this is literally exactly how Civ 5's espionage worked Well yeah but that was just techs. The rest of GRRL's post suggested how it might work in Civ6 for artworks and money on top of that.
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Sep 26, 2019 19:09
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Madmarker posted:That being said, the difficulty curve of the game (especially on Deity) is a slide. The game is by far at its most challenging for the first 50 turns , it hits a sweet spot between 51 and 149, and then from turn 150 onward you've already won. In the beginning of the game, I always wind up at the very bottom of the total rankings, because I guess the AI civs are programmed to focus on maximizing that score as well as whatever victory condition they're going for, whereas I'm usually starting out with a long-term plan which will never require chasing ALL of those criteria. So I spend 50-100 turns doing terribly on paper, and then thanks to the groundwork I've laid (vastly eclipsing everyone else on science or culture or gold, etc), I skyrocket to the top in a couple dozen turns. (Unless I put off building walls for too long and suddenly get half my early cities taken out. I get the balance reasons for why you can't buy walls with gold like you can with all the other buildings, but drat am I bad at remembering to build them.) showbiz_liz fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 19:38
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showbiz_liz posted:(Unless I put off building walls for too long and suddenly get half my early cities taken out. I get the balance reasons for why you can't buy walls with gold like you can with all the other buildings, but drat am I bad at remembering to build them.) Just have masonry ready and switch your production to walls when you get a war declared on you. Even if you have a small army, you can probably hold the attackers long enough for the walls to be built Thats been working for me edit: and yeah, its always like that for me too: behind on everything on early game, while I build my districts and beeline for the techs and civics that will make them strong, than snowball for the rest of the game Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 19:45
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showbiz_liz posted:In the beginning of the game, I always wind up at the very bottom of the total rankings, because I guess the AI civs are programmed to focus on maximizing that score as well as whatever victory condition they're going for, whereas I'm usually starting out with a long-term plan which will never require chasing ALL of those criteria. So I spend 50-100 turns doing terribly on paper, and then thanks to the groundwork I've laid (vastly eclipsing everyone else on science or culture or gold, etc), I skyrocket to the top in a couple dozen turns. That's the best bit of the game, really- when all that groundwork pays off and the systems you've set up suddenly click together. I guess that's the main problem- the satisfying arc of the game ends way before the actual game does.
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Sep 27, 2019 03:07
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Tree Bucket posted:Agreed. Particularly the bewilderingly, infuriatingly, disastrously awful World Congress. Civ V's World Congress: "Okay, out of everyone polled, we narrowed it down to fried chicken or chinese food tonight, so let's finalize a decision. No Steve we're not doing Anchovy pizzas, only you want that." Civ VI's World Congress: 3 people vote for Chinese 4 people vote for fried chicken 1 person votes to just have leftovers Steve sits in the corner and yells "ANCHOVY PIZZA" really loudly over and over so that's what everyone is eating.
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Sep 27, 2019 04:34
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The World Congress sucks balls in Civ VI but anchovies rule.  Seriously, I enjoy playing Civ VI a lot but I still can't wrap my head around the World Congress (and I think I have tourism figured out), I sincerely hope they give it a twist with next expansion/big update. Also, holy poo poo, canals can really boost a trade route's gold output. In my recent Phoenicia game I had a.few 30 gold traders sailing around. It brought me some Polystralia flashbacks from BE with those satellite thingies that doubled a station's output.
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Sep 27, 2019 09:08
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Ulvino posted:The World Congress sucks balls in Civ VI but anchovies rule. I actually enjoy anchovies on pizza. However I recognize that a) not everyone does and b) a cheese pizza covered in a layer of anchovies would suck. And yeah canals are crazy powerful. Especially if they're part of the Panama Canal.
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Sep 27, 2019 10:00
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Eternal problem, the game is usually won or boring (or both) by the time you build the Panama Canal. Same with Dido's ability to relocate her Palace, I built a throwaway city on another continent, then it took so much production to build the Palace project that I basically quit the game a few turns after the grand accomplishment.
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Sep 27, 2019 10:43
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Yeah, more or less. It's less of a problem for me because I rather just enjoy building things but I can see it being an issue for others.
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Sep 27, 2019 10:48
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Alkydere posted:Civ V's World Congress: Don't forget that Steve drew "ANCHOVY PIZZA" out of a hat labelled "random number generator." (And why does "diplomatic visibility" not grant any, you know, diplomatic visibility and let you see what options the AI will support? And does the AI care if you target it with anything? And why is there no message, anywhere, explaining why I can't vote on certain proposals? Honestly, it's like they drew up a big list of all civ6's most annoying features and then did their best to condense it into one hell-concept.) e: anchovies are, however, delicious
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Sep 27, 2019 12:54
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To take this Steve analogy father: Steve didn't even have to sitting in the corner of the room. Steve could have been a voter you never even met, who somehow imposes his choice of pizza toppings on the room without ever exposing who he is.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:01
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The Human Crouton posted:To take this Steve analogy father: Steve didn't even have to sitting in the corner of the room. Steve could have been a voter you never even met, who somehow imposes his choice of pizza toppings on the room without ever exposing who he is. Steve is in the next room with a bunch of other people. Your friends have met some, but you haven't been in that room yet. They pass their choices of takeaway under the door. Also they hate you because you gave your friend a swirly in kindergarten.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:31
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Ever so often Steve barges into my room asking for directions or stuff and I just take whatever I have at hand and shove it in his face to shut him up. This repeats till the end of time.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:40
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The Human Crouton posted:To take this Steve analogy father: Steve didn't even have to sitting in the corner of the room. Steve could have been a voter you never even met, who somehow imposes his choice of pizza toppings on the room without ever exposing who he is. I believe the abstration of the vote system is that Steve bribes or coerces all the minor friends who aren't real players to support his bid for bad pizza That's why suzeran gives diplo favor. You're banking that minor country's loyalty for future votes. The presentation is extremely gamey in a way that's not great Marmaduke! posted:Eternal problem, the game is usually won or boring (or both) by the time you build the Panama Canal. Same with Dido's ability to relocate her Palace, I built a throwaway city on another continent, then it took so much production to build the Palace project that I basically quit the game a few turns after the grand accomplishment. I don't like all the stuff trying to push over sea colonies when in practice they suck and are a hassle like most late cities.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:42
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Yeah..................I'll admit, I pretty much completely ignore the World Congress, and just sell my diplo favor for lots and lots of gold.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:48
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Madmarker posted:Yeah..................I'll admit, I pretty much completely ignore the World Congress, and just sell my diplo favor for lots and lots of gold. I been doing that too. The AI loves getting diplo points, they will trade amenities for it easily
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Sep 27, 2019 14:33
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The World Congress in 6 is particularly bizarre because it worked quite well in 5. It could do with some tweaking but it didn’t need the drastic overhaul to turn it into the monstrosity it is now.
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Sep 27, 2019 14:53
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BBJoey posted:The World Congress in 6 is particularly bizarre because it worked quite well in 5. It could do with some tweaking but it didn’t need the drastic overhaul to turn it into the monstrosity it is now. Yep, is like, I cant even imagine the rationale behind it. How they came up with that? Why? What were they smoking? The diplo points mechanic on itself is not a bad idea, civ 5 world congress with diplo points could work great. But not this dumb mess
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Sep 27, 2019 15:00
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Im liking the Terra map...but it seems best for a military civ. Sure there is another landmass, but look at all these delicious capitals nearby for the taking lol.
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Sep 27, 2019 17:47
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Just had a culture win as French Eleanor and holy poo poo is that passive takeover from other Civs powerful. I ate two full civilizations in total without ever breaking into war.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:41
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BigglesSWE posted:Just had a culture win as French Eleanor and holy poo poo is that passive takeover from other Civs powerful. I ate two full civilizations in total without ever breaking into war. I almost felt guilty when I played her.
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Sep 28, 2019 03:25
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BigglesSWE posted:Just had a culture win as French Eleanor and holy poo poo is that passive takeover from other Civs powerful. I ate two full civilizations in total without ever breaking into war. I can't seem to get her rolling. Every time I've tried I either get sandwiched between 2 aggressive domination civs, I can't find even halfway decent places to settle third and fourth cities, and the one time I thought I had a pretty good start my save was bugged and other civs could declare war on me but I couldn't fight back.
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Sep 28, 2019 03:40
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I found myself in a very good starting position, with big mountain ranges around me limiting angles of attack. I plopped down three cities of my own and from there things just sort of snowballed into a take over frenzy, sometimes two cities in the same turn. I also had like 4 golden ages in a row.
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Sep 28, 2019 09:07
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Eleanor takes a while to get going when the AI doesn’t decide to settle free cities for you, but once she gets going it’s just so satisfying. I had a game where Chandragupta ate all my neighbors and took a couple of my cities, but I eventually bribed him to be buddies and my cities came back into the fold. Then there was an era of tense borders until I managed to get museums online and hit critical mass, and his massive empire gradually turned itself over to me, to the point where I even got a couple city states to flip. This is also when I learned that Chandragupta’s agenda has the same checks as the War of Territorial Aggression CB, since I was at peace with him as I conquered everything. When he was down to just his capital, he phoned me up to tell me how nice it was that we weren’t neighbors.
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Sep 28, 2019 09:30
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Glasses Optional posted:Im liking the Terra map...but it seems best for a military civ. Sure there is another landmass, but look at all these delicious capitals nearby for the taking lol. Enjoy your continent, AIs, I'm going to be colonising the rest of the world from Turn 1!
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Sep 28, 2019 09:49
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:When he was down to just his capital, he phoned me up to tell me how nice it was that we weren’t neighbors. At that point you were his landlord, not his neighbor.
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Sep 28, 2019 15:16
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So i got totally boned in my Terra game and am salty about it. On a Large map there is our main landmass, but if youre land locked near a desert its kind of GG. No access to water to go explore, tough real estate situation in the middle of the map, and I was Hungary so NO city states. Just completely boxed in to cruddy tiles with no way to go actually colonize the mainland. Throw in hostile Inca next to me with a billion hills, and a single tile mointain pass....that he smartly puts an encampments RIGHT in the gap so i cant really fight him. Excellent map concept but a perfect alignment of screwing me over lol
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Sep 28, 2019 18:44
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I guess Hungary might be the worst civ for a Terra map. On the other hand...Paul.Power posted:I've been having some fun completely ignoring the whole point of a Terra map by playing as the Maori. ...I've started a game like this, and it's pretty great!
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Sep 28, 2019 21:35
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Yeah, I just finished a game on Terra map with Phoenicia and it was a blast. But you really have to pick a civ that is good at naval/coastal cities and has a coastal starting location bias
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Sep 28, 2019 21:58
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I had a Terra map where I did the normal colonization thing as Victoria but was set back because I was on the south side of the continent and cock-blocked by neighbors and had to get open borders to slip ships/soldiers/settlers through. Which wasn't an issue other than the open borders agreements tended to end when my dudes were only halfway across, kicking them back to my side of their territories and not the far side where I could continue onto the lost continent. Still eventually got there and was Suzerain of Everyone of course.
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Sep 28, 2019 22:48
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Or just be Eleanor and open up access if you don't start with it.
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Sep 28, 2019 23:04
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The Terra map made me realise something. I thought that I wanted an in-depth geo-strategic simulator featuring the rise and fall of empires and the contingencies of history. What I really want is all my numbers going up all of the time forever.
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Sep 29, 2019 06:58
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