|
You're probably putting more thought into the logistics of it than they are. And really there's no reason to ol yeller the OG marines they still have plenty of equipment and material around. Through simple attrition they'll die off on their own since there's no reason to make more. There was a part in Plague War were they had trouble finding bolt rifle ammo for the new primaris squad.
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2019 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 23:31 |
|
|
So Chapters was having a B3GO sale, so I picked up a few 40k novels I didn't have. Dark Imperium:Plague War (because i didn't mind Dark Imperium), Fabius Bile: Clonelord, and Lords of Silence. Sadly, Mrs Randalor wanted a book herself, otherwise I would have picked up Baneblade and Shadowblade instead of Fabius Bile. When is the new Cawl novel supposed to hit general retail?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2019 20:55
|
|
|
Guyver posted:You're probably putting more thought into the logistics of it than they are. Funny enough after I posted that I did a search and found this article from spikey bits that deals with the question. https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/regular-space-marines-40ks-next-thunder-warriors.html Seems in at least some of the BL books the question of the OGs' future is being discussed on both sides of the imperial/traitor divide.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2019 21:00
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:That doesn't sound like being the 40k tony stark. Not even a huge fan of the movies but Stark actuall screws up and pays for it, has to make tough choices that cost him friends and more, and actually changes. I drat near put the book down with Cawl's needlessly XTREME entrance into his own book. It wasn't even Tony Stark, it was Poochie The Rockin' Dog. Belisarius Cawl is loving cool and good and right and built himself his own personal Primarch and crash dives his Ark Mechanicus out of the warp danger close to planets and does cyber-kickflips over loving C'tan while ripping out bitchin' guitar solos and effortlessly hacking necron technology while being cool as a cucumber. Then you get through the disjointed flashback stories and realize that Cawl is a technological genius, but is also a prisoner of his own ego and hubris. Cawl pulls off repeated ridiculous chaos dunks via his awesome technological prowess, but the rest of the cast becomes increasingly distraught at just how close they came to utter ruin because of Cawl's self-centered, ego-driven antics. Cawl's equerry is the 88th clone of his BFF whom he couldn't save from death despite being so awesome. He literally spends his life being followed by the ghost of his best bro that he couldn't save. Cawl has spent 10 millennia avoiding coming to terms with his own failures via coming up with ever more bitchin' technology. He's 40k Tony Stark that never addressed any of his issues.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 05:43
|
|
|
By the end of the book I figured Cawl translated so close because he knew that doing it at a safe distance would take a day or two to get the giant ship to the planet in real space and he knew the Necron poo poo was starting to wake up. Of course this could just be me reaching for a no-prize and Cawl is just an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 11:16
|
|
|
No one: Belisarius Cawl: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 11:23
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:The writing in the Cawl book must be pretty good, because the actual plot points people have been tossing here seem...kind of awful? Cawl has always been an awful AdMech Mary Sue. Not one in the trillions upon trillions of AdMech members over the last 10k years have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has done since his introduction and it looks like he's just getting started.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 13:25
|
|
|
Senjuro posted:Cawl has always been an awful AdMech Mary Sue. Not one in the trillions upon trillions of AdMech members over the last 10k years have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has done since his introduction and it looks like he's just getting started. Having absorbed the memories of someone who spent 1k years learning at the feet of the Emperor + however many other magi he's eaten might have something to do with that. The only Mary Sue thing about Cawl is how he hasn't got high off is own farts and decreed that he's taking over the Imperium for it's own goodTM
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 13:39
|
|
|
Isn't Cawl the one that basically said "Hey, I know we're just supposed to worship the technology of the past, but... y'know, those little blue aliens have fully working plasma weapons as their basic weaponry while ours are a coinflip on if they fire or explode. I'm just going to start tinkering and see what happens. Any dissent? Yes? Well gently caress you, I'm higher ranked. I'm going to see if I can make a better Space Marine. There's still some space left behind the reinforced ribcage, maybe I can squeeze a third heart in there or something." "Getting poo poo done" isn't exactly a high bar to clear in the cult it seems. There was also Magos Darioq (Word Bearers trilogy) who literally had to sever his desire to experiment and question why things work they way they do because it was deemed heretical.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 13:44
|
|
|
Randalor posted:Isn't Cawl the one that basically said "Hey, I know we're just supposed to worship the technology of the past, but... y'know, those little blue aliens have fully working plasma weapons as their basic weaponry while ours are a coinflip on if they fire or explode. I'm just going to start tinkering and see what happens. Any dissent? Yes? Well gently caress you, I'm higher ranked. I'm going to see if I can make a better Space Marine. There's still some space left behind the reinforced ribcage, maybe I can squeeze a third heart in there or something." He's hardly the first heretek though and not one of them have had anywhere close to the kind of impact Cawl had. Just to recap his accomplishments: Resurrected a Primarch (though with some help). Created the Primaris Marines thus surpassing the Emperor's own work. This includes restoring full function to all gene lines degraded over the years and even removing or at least diminishing the effect of flaws like the Black Rage, something that when done previously like with the Lemanters resulted in making them cursed. Upgraded the entire Space Marine arsenal. Before that you'd be lucky to just have a slightly improved bolter once in a millennia. Has a better understanding of Necron tech, the most advanced tech in the galaxy, than anyone that isn't a Necron themselves. Thinks he'll be able to reproduce the Cadian pylons within a century. Even if he was one of the technologically inclined Primarchs I'd be saying they should slow down a bit. He'd just too much for one character. He single handedly makes the entire AdMech look utterly useless. Not to mention how thematically wrong he is. He negates what's written in the standard intro itself: "Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned".
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 14:21
|
|
|
While I agreet that Cawl has a ton of plot armor, he's hardly the first rogue AdMech that has made huge technological breakthroughs by dismissing the AdMechs rules and using alien tech, like the antagonist in the Priests of Mars trilogy. The only difference is that Cawl has not gone insane/corrupt and tried to destroy the Imperium (yet). I just find it refreshing that, for once, there is someone in the Imperium whose actually making things go forward instead of just temporary holding back the grim Darknes of the 41st millenium.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 15:38
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:While I agreet that Cawl has a ton of plot armor, he's hardly the first rogue AdMech that has made huge technological breakthroughs by dismissing the AdMechs rules and using alien tech, like the antagonist in the Priests of Mars trilogy. The only difference is that Cawl has not gone insane/corrupt and tried to destroy the Imperium (yet). I just find it refreshing that, for once, there is someone in the Imperium whose actually making things go forward instead of just temporary holding back the grim Darknes of the 41st millenium. Cawl himself was introduced in the end of 7th edition so I can understand somebody already upset with Primaris disliking a character moving the storyline even further ahead, but even before The Great Work as originally described Cawl was a biological and xenotech specialist working by himself with the sanction of primarch for nearly 10 thousand years without terran oversight. You can get a lot done if you aren't held back by committee and time is no object and he was working in the dark for multiple times longer than even dante has been alive. A wierd giant man robot showing up on planet with a seal of Guilliman and every test you can come up with returning genuine would open a lot of doors with very little questions asked. The Great Work just reinforces further how he is so long lived and adept at what he does and so gosh darn self assured. Near end of The Great Work spoilers: Saying he absorbed a brain is a bit misleading because for all purposes Cawl is both men combined, Cawl just being the primary personality. He maintains his near heretical leanings and roguish attitude from himself but from the other he has a tremendous drive to see the emperors will and dream completed and Cawls personal belief in rejecting technologic augmentation has been overwritten by the other mans fear of losing his lifetimes of knowledge to death. Other personalities and knowledge gained via the more traditional and well used mechanicus methods seem to not affect him as much. It means Cawl isn't just ancient in the setting, he's a biologist that worked with the emperor himself in the making of the original space marines and possibly the thunder warriors. He at least predates the ascension and revelation of the emperor to Terra because he is from the part of the Himalayas the emperor was hiding out in during the old night and sought him out under one of his guises. I think it makes a pretty good case for why one character would be able to accomplish all the work they have. Verloc posted:Sorry for spoilering most of the post but the discussion gives a lot of poo poo away. This is a post that's less of a spoiler for the end of the book and more just a discussion about Cawl's attitude and personality in general: The Cawl we know in the Great Work is a partial reconstruction of only a handful of his personality traits, specifically engineered and designed to infuriate felix to help him overcome his personal fear of cawl while still leaving cawl enough competency and diplomacy to accomplish his goals. I think it's also possible to read it as cawl attempting the personality Felix would like the most and absolutely missing the mark through sheer hubris but accomplishing the goal anyways accidentally, claiming a backend victory. A neat promise that I hope a sequel will actually deal with is Cawl deciding to locate the rest of his scattered memories and personality traits at the end of the book maybe leading to a fully realized cawl and whatever that will bring. I really like The Great Work because even as a pulp book its structure and themes really strongly resonate with the main theme of memories, the characters major and minor are all defined by it, and even with a rather simple through line plot aspects of it are still pretty open to interpretation because of the fragmented nature of its title character. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 29, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
Just lol if Cawl ends up absorbing a fragment of the Emperor somehow and becomes the literal Omnissiah.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 20:47
|
|
|
Turns out Cawl is the latest episode of the Emps' Just As Planned.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2019 21:25
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:Turns out Cawl is the latest episode of the Emps' Just As Planned. At this point I'm honestly half expecting them to bring him back in psychic awakening.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 00:11
|
|
|
Look, it's pretty obvious that when the new management came in a few years ago they made a decision to not only advance the story and shake things up, but to increase the "power levels" across the board. They brought back a loyalist primarch, destroyed cadia, and split the galaxy in half. In order for the Imperium to have a chance in hell (they don't want to do an End Times in their 40k moneymaker) they needed to give it some serious juice. Rowboat was one way to do that, and Cawl/Primaris is the other. I would argue that at this point Cawl has basically become the Ad Mech primarch. Something that is needed with the increased Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos threats. Personally, I love it. I only got into 40k about 3 years ago, and what I enjoy the most is the epic scale of it. I've gone back and read just about everything, and as great as it used to be the new stuff blows it out of the water because it hits all the right buttons for me. They obviously learned a valuable lesson with the Horus Heresy success and decided to emulate that kind of scale and connected plot lines in the new era. More power to them I say. I do understand why some people who have been fans for much longer than me find it off putting though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 00:29
|
|
|
TBH to a point they kind of have End Times'd it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 04:27
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Look, it's pretty obvious that when the new management came in a few years ago they made a decision to not only advance the story and shake things up, but to increase the "power levels" across the board. They brought back a loyalist primarch, destroyed cadia, and split the galaxy in half. In order for the Imperium to have a chance in hell (they don't want to do an End Times in their 40k moneymaker) they needed to give it some serious juice. Rowboat was one way to do that, and Cawl/Primaris is the other. I would argue that at this point Cawl has basically become the Ad Mech primarch. Something that is needed with the increased Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos threats. The Imperium being "overpowered" is a new thing. Not too long ago the Necrons and Tyranids were (simultaneously, iirc) way more powerful fluff-wise. The existing Tyranid hive-fleets were implied to just be scouting forces for the main Tyranid force which was perpetually just about to show up out of inter-galactic space and eat the galaxy for dinner. The Necrons meanwhile were an unstoppable, innumerable force that were awakening in ever-increasing numbers under the direction of invincible, Lovecraftian deities who were the doom of the progenitor race that created the Orks and Eldar. Every passage of fluff text implied that the Imperium was coming apart at the seams under the immense pressure of galaxy-wide war against every other race. The timeline in the fluff session of every rulebook ended with a century of increasingly massive disasters for the Imperium, ending with stuff like "the AdMech realize the Golden Throne is broken and the Emperor will die soon" and "Abbadon launches the largest ever Black Crusade, aiming straight for Terra". When GW gave up on keeping 40K frozen at the end of the 41st millenium, they had to dial down on the hopelessness of the Imperium's position, because the Imperium is the flagship race and without them there's no little lead space marine miniatures to sell. The Necrons got nerfed fluff-wise so now the "actual, physical gods" are just Necron overlords who came out of stasis with religious megalomania. Hive Fleet Leviathan got its rear end handed to it by Guilliman and Khorne  which eliminated the largest hive fleet as an existential threat. The Imperium's fluff status has been upgraded to 'extremely shaky', which is easier to sustain with the narrative moving forward than endless novels and codexes of "the Imperium is totally hosed this edition, no for real guys, it's really gonna collapse now".
Fallen Hamprince fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Sep 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 05:44
|
|
|
Fallen Hamprince posted:The Imperium being "overpowered" is a new thing. Agree with everything you've said, although I always got the impression that the Imperium was basically the most powerful force in the galaxy but was simply spread so thin that if any of the other races achieved their 'end game' it would all be over. If the Imperium could concentrate on the Tau it would have them wiped out, cleansed of xeno filth and compliant in no time. If it turned it's attention to the hive fleets it would have the resources to meet it head on and destroy it (there was a fun fan story someone posted where a missing Primarch had actually been dispatched to go kill them all and the hive fleet was him herding them back to his father's empire for his brothers to make sport of). The whole point of the setting was the hopelessness of the situation and the feeling that it would all come crashing down at any moment as a withered corpse literally held the weight of the galaxy waiting for armageddon. Obviously you can't keep that going forever and now all the new fluff from HH has made the galaxy feel a lot smaller and more personal. Before, the Heresy was a distant, mythical event that may or may not have happened. Now there's a roster of characters who are still relevent and need their arcs to be completed so the time is 'right' to push the setting forward. Lets not forget that "primarch waking up" has always been an end game scenario too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 09:17
|
|
|
Roboute waking up is absolutely an end times event. It’s just shaking up weirdly because they literally timeskipped almost 200 years before writing novels about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 10:30
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:Roboute waking up is absolutely an end times event. It’s just shaking up weirdly because they literally timeskipped almost 200 years before writing novels about it. I think this is why I've struggled to get into the new setting. It's like "monumental, galaxay shattering event occured - here's generic bolter porn". Uh... no, back up. Can we get some good writers and... you know... do this properly?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 10:31
|
|
|
Dog_Meat posted:The whole point of the setting was the hopelessness of the situation and the feeling that it would all come crashing down at any moment as a withered corpse literally held the weight of the galaxy waiting for armageddon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 12:02
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:Did fine for 30-odd years to be fair. Their stock price nigh on quadrupled in the past few years since they started doing this wherein it had been more or less static for the previous 15. No way they're going back to a static universe. Each cycle drives product and hype and you can bet they're going to keep advancing the 40kverse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 14:17
|
|
|
Z the IVth posted:Their stock price nigh on quadrupled in the past few years since they started doing this wherein it had been more or less static for the previous 15. No way they're going back to a static universe. Each cycle drives product and hype and you can bet they're going to keep advancing the 40kverse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 14:22
|
|
|
Continuing haleyquest with devastation of baal and Valedor, two books about tyranids. Maybe because the enemy is so implacable and alien, Guy writes way more about emotion and feeling in the more human characters than im used to, so all in all the fights against endless swarms are only minor portions of the work, as dramatic in scale as they are. Instead theyre all very focused on the state of being of the people doing the fighting, their prides and triumphs and especially lots of sorrow, the books are suffused with pathos and Dantes vision near the very end of baal is absolutely my favorite scene in all of these pulp books ive read so far. Valedor made me love and care about the eldar for much the same reason, with a whole host of memorable characters and a perspective that makes them feel infinitely more human than even normal people in the imperium, its very neat. I especially love the detail that long range psychic communication for eldar is done with basically emoji, kanji like runes that carry multiple meanings depending on context and psychic scrying but im just imagining them as instant messager apps. Guys definitely my favorite black library writer now so im glad he seems to be always working on parts of the narrative that push the story forward, theres a really humanist bent to what he writes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 15:44
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Look, it's pretty obvious that when the new management came in a few years ago they made a decision to not only advance the story and shake things up, but to increase the "power levels" across the board. They brought back a loyalist primarch, destroyed cadia, and split the galaxy in half. In order for the Imperium to have a chance in hell (they don't want to do an End Times in their 40k moneymaker) they needed to give it some serious juice. Rowboat was one way to do that, and Cawl/Primaris is the other. I would argue that at this point Cawl has basically become the Ad Mech primarch. Something that is needed with the increased Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos threats. AAAAA NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE REAL. IT IS 815M41 AND THE CALIXIS SECTOR IS A DARK PLACE...    E: I guess I would sort of compare myself to those groggy assholes who had very serious opinions about the Age of Sigmar thing, but only if that person was also super into those Steampunk Dorfs and the Innsmouth Elves? Because I really really like all (or at least most) of the design decisions GW has made, I really love the Primaris sculpts, I just think all of the lore connected with the models (along with the "Everything needs a damned silly new name and death to customization" Chapterhouse fallout) has been p.crap.  E2: I am really enjoying Carrion Throne, though. Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
Aren't they setting up Imperium Nihilus for all the super grimdark just barely holding on from annihilation needs of the misanthrope audience.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 16:50
|
|
|
Yeah pretty much, but when you have an ill-defined "Imperium" of a non-specific size to play in and then suddenly you learn that you actually only have like half of it at best there's still a weird feeling of being restricted. This kind of thing is hard to do in franchises where everyone expects the status quo to change, but the utterly stagnant Warhams settings make it weird.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 18:35
|
|
|
One interesting thing about how quickly/slowly they're advancing towards the end times final battle of all the eldar and humans and probably some xenos against the tide of chaos is that the gathering storm creation of the ynnari as a faction was a huge step forward in plot elements that had been kicking for years hinting at the alliance and end times and now a couple years have gone by and they haven't really added anything to the faction since in either crunch or fluff. The new psychic awakening book for eldar doesn't seem like it will be a huge game changer either, mostly just hinting at some kind of civil war between the elfs and a handful of resin models getting replaced with plastics. Could end up very surprised though, Games Workshop says its supposed to be larger than gathering storm was in scope.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 21:16
|
|
|
They should release a Night Lords Vs Ulthwe set
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 22:59
|
|
|
The Eldar going full on civil war in Psychic Awakening sounds like a lore explanation for closing down older faction model lines to replace them with Ynnari models in future editions. One of these days the IG will get a model update. I love the Cadian shock troops but the guardsmen models haven't been updated since 2003. Forge World doesn't count.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 23:09
|
|
|
Why doesn't every Inquisitor have a space marine? I don't mean Grey Knights or Death Watch those are nuclear options but a team member. I understand you're not going to just roll up to a fortress monastery and go "I'll have have one battle brother and a large fry" but I was reading a book that just came out (the fact there's an undercover Inquisitor in the book is spoiler but one you should see a mile away after they introduce the character) and nearly the whole inquisition team got wiped out. A single marine would steam roll everything they fought except the maybe the minor demon and even that would be doable. Find a bored Black Templar and ask if they want to purge heretics and xeno in the name of the Emperor.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:05
|
|
|
As a guess, don't most inquisitors work undercover? Even an unarmored space marine sticks out like a sore thumb and makes your team more recognizable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:21
|
|
|
Lol imagine an Inquisitor employing an Astartes warrior as a Savant because they have near perfect recall.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:38
|
|
|
"Space Marine? No sir! This is my large adult son. I take him everywhere, the loveable doofus."
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:38
|
|
|
Randalor posted:As a guess, don't most inquisitors work undercover? Even an unarmored space marine sticks out like a sore thumb and makes your team more recognizable. Put them in a t-shirt and pants and say they're an unusually smart ogrym. How many people outside of a chapter planet or Ultramar even know space marines outside of armor are even a thing?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:41
|
|
|
Guyver posted:Why doesn't every Inquisitor have a space marine? It would be a nice to read about an Inquisitor that actually uses their unlimited authority instead of doing everything undercover for a change. Eisenhorn really failed to show it in action. There's some criminal organization you want to take down? gently caress stealth tactics, send a stormtrooper battalion!
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 12:13
|
|
|
Huh? Voke was exactly that kind of a character. Eisenhorn mentions it multiple times, and it changes how the response to chaos action if eisenhorn or voke is in command cause Voke is totally a burn it all down character.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 12:58
|
|
|
Senjuro posted:It would be a nice to read about an Inquisitor that actually uses their unlimited authority instead of doing everything undercover for a change. Eisenhorn really failed to show it in action. There's some criminal organization you want to take down? gently caress stealth tactics, send a stormtrooper battalion! At which point any other cultist groups bunker down and go silent for a few years, until the Inquisition has gone away, then they resume their work where they left off. I mean, I think Eishenhorn even points out the flaw in that logic (and to be fair, his agent calls up the admiral of the Imperial navy to storm the property when things go sideways on a fact-finding mission. If that's not using your unlimited authority, I'm not sure what is). Or there's the inquisitor from the Ciaphas Cain novels, who not only has power armor and tech that would make most techpriests drool, but has also commandeered Imperial Guard units to assist her (and has a commissar at her beck and call, mostly because he's terrified of what she might do if he says "No").
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 13:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 23:31 |
|
|
Randalor posted:At which point any other cultist groups bunker down and go silent for a few years, until the Inquisition has gone away, then they resume their work where they left off. I mean, I think Eishenhorn even points out the flaw in that logic (and to be fair, his agent calls up the admiral of the Imperial navy to storm the property when things go sideways on a fact-finding mission. If that's not using your unlimited authority, I'm not sure what is). Jokes on him, his reputation would probably allow him to get away with that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 13:48
|
|
