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Nail Rat posted:In that case wrap it up because what other incentive does Pompeo have to come, or to send any of the people under his umbrella whom have been subpoenaed? Hideously punishing daily fines, is what I've read. Like, no upper limit because they're designed to compel people with a lot of money to do what they're told.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:10
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:Are you really going to sit there and make the argument that civil war is, in fact, likely because Donald Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million to an incredibly unpopular Democratic candidate? Voting is a popularity contest, war is not. If you have a small heavily armed faction cycling itself up to commit domestic violence, then it really doesn't matter that they lost the last round of elections. A big flaming stink posted:hey pj I responded to a post that directly quoted me.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:10
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GlyphGryph posted:Being "pragmatic" in this situation requires powers of prognostication the majority of congress have indicated they absolutely do not possess. There is no pragmatic course forward here. Like with climate change, that ship has sailed - there is only defeat, or a radical and uncertain but necessary action. The instant Pelosi opened an impeachment inquiry, this turned into a hill that the Democratic party and the American Republic will live or die on. A precedent needs to be set that this poo poo will not be tolerated.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:11
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Prester Jane posted:I trust Democratic leadership to be pragmatic and make the right call here. If Congress completely committing itself to a course of action would potentially isolate moderate conservative voters- then it's not a course of action Congress should take. Agreed, and if you think about it, Speaker Pelosi's recent decision to pursue impeachment against President Trump was really quite the strategic misfire. Alienating the rational center by making them uncomfortable is certain to send reverberations through the decorous core of American politics, and I don't think she can predict the damage it could potentially do to the American political landscape. GreyjoyBastard posted:- sue to get them all held in normal civil contempt in normal court, leading to either escalating fines, indefinite imprisonment until they comply, or both Pretty much this. If it gets to the point wherein various security forces are battling it out in DC, we've already lost any hope at any reasonably peaceful transition of power/resolution to the Trump presidency.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:11
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Prester Jane posted:Voting is a popularity contest, war is not. If you have a small heavily armed faction cycling itself up to commit domestic violence, then it really doesn't matter that they lost the last round of elections. It's a small faction full of cowards and old people that would poo poo themselves at the first hint of armed conflict--or do you not recall how many times they have disavowed right-wing violence as "false flag operations"? You fear these people. Why?
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Oct 1, 2019 20:12
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GreyjoyBastard posted:- sue to get them all held in normal civil contempt in normal court, leading to either escalating fines, indefinite imprisonment until they comply, or both Who enforces those top two options?
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Oct 1, 2019 20:12
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Dammerung posted:That really is the big problem we're facing right now. Either Congress completely commits itself for a chance of potentially enforcing some sort of check, or they almost explicitly cannot do so. Would it be an unprecedented constitutional crisis? Yeah, definitely. But when the legislative branch starts imprisoning the executive branch - even if it's for justifiable reasons - hoo boy, that's one hell of a line, there, and you can bet the executive branch will turn around and do the same. Trump's already threatening them with criminal charges.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:12
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Telsa Cola posted:Everything must be a crisis because things are bad. Not that the president threatinging civil war isnt a crisis in a different way. Police control the streets of the Cities they reside in by definition. They don't have to "band together" to do what they are explicitly designed to do-it-yourself be at domestic occupying force that protects the interests of capital. The literal president of the United States is literally inside and politically connected and heavily armed militias to rise up and commit acts of violence. This is a crisis.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:13
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Prester Jane posted:This is exactly what people were saying about Trump supporters four years ago. No it isn't. "Trump narrowly won an election" is used far too much to explain why everybody who says something is unlikely might be wrong.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:13
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This thread is arguing about whether to close the barn door, when the horse has already escaped, led a long life, and been turned into glue after thinking of a bee.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:14
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Trump would absolutely wage a civil war to keep himself in office and thus out of jail. The question is whether anyone else would participate, or whether it would just be him yelling on twitter and a resulting rise in uncoordinated stochastic terrorism which sucks but does not a civil war make.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:14
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CuddleCryptid posted:Threatening the press with libel is such a weird thing to do because you have to prove that they are wrong in court, by presenting evidence of such, which is an issue if they are telling the truth. they idea is to use it as a cudgel because if you're super rich you can sue them and outlast them. see thiel backing hogan's suit of gawker because he was mad valleywag outed him. even if that hadn't been successful thiel can last forever and gawker couldn't.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:14
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Groovelord Neato posted:almost like the founding fathers were dumb and instituted a system worse than the one they rebelled against. I mean, they rebelled specifically so they could keep doing genocide and slavery. 
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Oct 1, 2019 20:16
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:It's a small faction full of cowards and old people that would poo poo themselves at the first hint of armed conflict--or do you not recall how many times they have disavowed right-wing violence as "false flag operations"? This is you shoving your head in the sand. quote:
Because as a trans woman I'm near the top of the fascist list murder list.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:17
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Dammerung posted:Agreed, and if you think about it, Speaker Pelosi's recent decision to pursue impeachment against President Trump was really quite the strategic misfire. Alienating the rational center by making them uncomfortable is certain to send reverberations through the decorous core of American politics, and I don't think she can predict the damage it could potentially do to the American political landscape. Wasn't nearly everyone in this thread calling the Dems worthless for not pursuing impeachment before
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Oct 1, 2019 20:17
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GlyphGryph posted:The Sergeant At Arms is really a metaphor for the Capitol Police on the whole. I do apologize for bringing this up but this is one area in which the US is deeply flawed. The country generally hasn't had to deal with corruption at this scale. Nixon had administration people go against him. Trump's administration is much more loyal. I do have hope that someone will come to their senses and flip, or get bitten by the decorum bug. The current scandals (phone calls and coverups) are a lot easier to work with than other things that have happened so far.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:17
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Also, Pompeo is not (currently) saying he straight up won't comply with subpoenas. He is delaying in a way that courts will, for the moment, probably be okay with, and which would frankly be entirely reasonable in a non-Trump administration acting in good faith. His argument is twofold: the requested turnaround / appearance dates are way too sudden and short for the State Department to get its ducks in a row and he needs more time (true), and some of the House's document and testimony requests were not properly formalized or sent through the proper channels (ehh close enough). These are both arguments we can expect judges to look favorably upon in the short term, but they don't quash the subpoenas/requests or even delay them all that much. Willo567 posted:Wasn't nearly everyone in this thread calling the Dems worthless for not pursuing impeachment before pj and dammerung are sarcasmposting
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Oct 1, 2019 20:17
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Prester Jane posted:This is exactly what people were saying about Trump supporters four years ago. And here I am having pitched block to block gun battles with the denizens of Texas.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:17
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TVs Ian posted:Hideously punishing daily fines, is what I've read. Like, no upper limit because they're designed to compel people with a lot of money to do what they're told. It has not yet been made clear to me the manner in which the House will enforce fines. dwarf74 posted:The check will almost definitely not involve throwing cabinet members in the hoosegow. What other checks are there that don't ultimately amount to the same thing? Whatever is done will need to be enforced, and the Sergeant at Arms and Capitol Police are the only enforcement tools actually available to Congress so long as Trump has control of the executive branch. quote:Would it be an unprecedented constitutional crisis? Yeah, definitely. But when the legislative branch starts imprisoning the executive branch - even if it's for justifiable reasons - hoo boy, that's one hell of a line, there, and you can bet the executive branch will turn around and do the same. Trump's already threatening them with criminal charges. Would what be an unprecedented constitutional crisis? Trump arresting the legislature?
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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Prester Jane posted:This is you shoving your head in the sand. No, PJ, it's me acknowledging reality. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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People seem to not realize how old Trump supporters are. The people that would "fight" for Trump probably constitute, by his wildest dreams, 30% of the US population. Of those, maybe 10% of them don't have osteoporosis or a stent.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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Trump's "base" are the only ones who would even possibly approve of a "civil war" over this, and only a small fraction of them would actually be able and willing to take up arms. Most of them are people who vote for cruel policies essentially because it makes them feel tough without actually having to do anything. They generally are "nice" people in public and shrink from any real confrontation. So that's a fraction of his base, which are a fraction of the people who voted for him, which are less than 50% of the voting-age population. Now, terrorists are pretty much always a fringe minority, so I'm not saying there's nothing at all to be worried about. But a "civil war" just doesn't seem possible.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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CuddleCryptid posted:Threatening the press with libel is such a weird thing to do because you have to prove that they are wrong in court, by presenting evidence of such, which is an issue if they are telling the truth.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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Feldegast42 posted:We are all loving dead cool
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Oct 1, 2019 20:19
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Prester Jane posted:Police control the streets of the Cities they reside in by definition. They don't have to "band together" to do what they are explicitly designed to do-it-yourself be at domestic occupying force that protects the interests of capital. Cop's are incredibly incompentent and undertrained to a hilarious extent. This is an incredibly common critique of the American police system. In the event of a mass civil war and uprising cops either not going to give a poo poo and gently caress off or get swamped by people. Cops work by intimidation and selective use of applied force to keep people in line, the national guard or the actually army would be needed to lock down cities. Anyways im done theorycrafting CW2. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 20:20
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Jaxyon posted:No it isn't. 4 years ago all the serious people insisted that Trump was a joke candidate who would never garner serious support, let alone dominate the Republican primary or go on to win the general election. Further, if you really like, I can go into the gay marriage threat of 2015 and dig up posts where people were explicitly shiting on the idea that Fringe right-wing militias were a threat.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:20
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beejay posted:I do apologize for bringing this up but this is one area in which the US is deeply flawed. The country generally hasn't had to deal with corruption at this scale. Nixon had administration people go against him. Trump's administration is much more loyal.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:21
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mdemone posted:Who enforces those top two options? So far the US Marshals et al have not been willing to just go "lol court orders mean nothing, hail Trump".
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Oct 1, 2019 20:21
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Telsa Cola posted:Cop's are incredibly incompentent and undertrained to a hilarious extent. This is an incredibly common critique of the American police system. In the event of a mass civil war and uprising cops either not going to give a poo poo and gently caress off or get swamped by people. Yeah I'm not sure what the argument is with cops. Are they going to be fighting other cops? Staging a coup? What happens when they leave the front lines at the end of their shift because they don't get overtime for doing it?
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Oct 1, 2019 20:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So far the US Marshals et al have not been willing to just go "lol court orders mean nothing, hail Trump". On the other hand we are operating literal child death camps out in the desert.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:23
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Xombie posted:Yeah I'm not sure what the argument is with cops. Are they going to be fighting other cops? Staging a coup? What happens when they leave the front lines at the end of their shift because they don't get overtime for doing it? Yeah, ask a cop about another police officer taking over their jurisdiction or superceding their authority and you'll quickly find how quickly the thin blue line begins to fall apart.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:25
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Willo567 posted:Wasn't nearly everyone in this thread calling the Dems worthless for not pursuing impeachment before I don't think there's a reasonable alternative, considering (at the very least) how the Democrats/Democrat leadership has discussed the Trump presidency. The argument I made above was a paraphrasing of some arguments against it I'd heard before, and admittedly what I believed (or wanted to believe) and it's just not an argument I can support now. GreyjoyBastard posted:pj and dammerung are sarcasmposting In my case, I have to admit that it's more of a partial thing, considering that I would have tried to argue for its merits a few years ago. My inaction isn't something I can apologize for, the only thing I think I can do is try to work toward a better future for all.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:25
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I can't really see any situation where a populist uprising over the Executive branch arresting the legislature isn't violently quashed by the police and national guard. People seem to think things will go like Ukraine; I think it'll be more like Turkey, where a majority of protesters are scared away in the first wave of the crackdown and a hardcore few are systematically ground down.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:26
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Xombie posted:Yeah I'm not sure what the argument is with cops. Are they going to be fighting other cops? Staging a coup? What happens when they leave the front lines at the end of their shift because they don't get overtime for doing it? anti-government milita types, who are well known for working in unison with cops and other government agents without problems,
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Oct 1, 2019 20:26
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Wow a whole ton of new posts some big news must have dropped oh.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:26
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Prester Jane posted:4 years ago all the serious people insisted that Trump was a joke candidate who would never garner serious support, let alone dominate the Republican primary or go on to win the general election. Further, if you really like, I can go into the gay marriage threat of 2015 and dig up posts where people were explicitly shiting on the idea that Fringe right-wing militias were a threat. Stop trying to push people to violence especially since as near as I can tell you are trying to push other people into violence while keeping yourself clean. It is incredible lovely to come into a thread where someone was genuinely panicking and start saying "actually every thing is terrible and maybe start killing the police but I'll deny I said this if anything did happen."
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Oct 1, 2019 20:26
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Apparently the bootlicks are switching from "She was acting in self defense" to "it's absurd to bring up that she was a cop. She was off duty" as far as the cop murder trial goes. The spin machine truly has no brakes.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:27
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Prester Jane posted:4 years ago all the serious people insisted that Trump was a joke candidate who would never garner serious support, let alone dominate the Republican primary or go on to win the general election. Further, if you really like, I can go into the gay marriage threat of 2015 and dig up posts where people were explicitly shiting on the idea that Fringe right-wing militias were a threat. I was referring to civil war predictions from 4 years ago that didn't happen, but if you want to take this path, cool. 4 Years ago the smart money was on "X" happening, and it didn't happen, therefore nobody can make educated guesses on anything. "I don't think Andrew Yang can win the presidency" "Oh yeah, well they said the same thing thing about trump 4 years ago". Congrats on supporting Yang 2020.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:28
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My dad had the balls to tell me this morning that MSNBC isn't an echo chamber and it REALLY pissed me off. All cable news is echo chambers. Just had to put that out there and get it off my chest, also settle down PJ.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:29
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ImpAtom posted:Stop trying to push people to violence especially since as near as I can tell you are trying to push other people into violence while keeping yourself clean. It is incredible lovely to come into a thread where someone was genuinely panicking and start saying "actually every thing is terrible and maybe start killing the police but I'll deny I said this if anything did happen." Please explain in detail exactly how I am "pushing people into committing violence".
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Oct 1, 2019 20:29
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