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Oct 1, 2019 06:22
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everydayfalls posted:I don't doubt that the harbor was strafed that day but the way the story was told by my grandmother was that the Japanese where strafing the civilian cars on the road far from the harbor. I realized as I got older that there was a certain underlying current of racism in the story and the way she recounted it. Wasn't there similar story in davidirvingesque circles about Dresden bombing? I seem to remember obvious bullshit stories about escorting P-51s strafing cars around the city after daytime american bombing on Feb. 14.
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Oct 1, 2019 06:25
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There was a USAAF training film posted in the last version of this topic that had our hero firing on a suspicious barn. That was a little odd.
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Oct 1, 2019 06:34
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Platystemon posted:There was a USAAF training film posted in the last version of this topic that had our hero firing on a suspicious barn. Well, he's no friend of mine... *brrrrrrt*
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Oct 1, 2019 06:47
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Xerxes17 posted:Well, he's no friend of mine... Give 'it a few squirts, might KILL somebody! *lights up railway cars*
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Oct 1, 2019 07:38
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Thanks for the quotes. Found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVDvFOKDZNk Our hero “goes on the prowl” at 23:54 e: This one is also good. I found it earlier when looking for the other one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oh2dYoo7tQ Platystemon fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 07:45
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Platystemon posted:There was a USAAF training film posted in the last version of this topic that had our hero firing on a suspicious barn. Well, did he hit the broad side?
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Oct 1, 2019 11:47
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Platystemon posted:Thanks for the quotes. Found it. That first one, whoof. At 26:16: "Somebody in that field. Wonder who they are? No friends of mine." Followed by a strafing run on some guy in a field. Then the narrator goes "Houses around here look kind of suspicious" and they show like, five strafing runs on "suspicious" (!?) houses. At least one house was apparently used as a munitions depot, because there's footage of it blowing up, but how common was using houses as weapons storage really? Also it shows him strafing a lighthouse, because why not? This footage makes it seem like the criteria for strafing a target was pretty much "Is it man-made or a person? Do I have ammo? Sure let's strafe it." which seems terrifyingly indiscriminate by our current standards.
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Oct 1, 2019 12:04
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everydayfalls posted:a Japanese-American was relating his disbelief at seeing Japanese planes attacking and they discredited his recounting with "they where all on their roofs cheering the attack on".
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Oct 1, 2019 12:35
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Remulak posted:Uh, wow. Is this new to anybody else? It’s mind-blowing in a post 9/11 context and I didn’t want it lost.
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Oct 1, 2019 14:05
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MORE TAXES WHEN posted:This footage makes it seem like the criteria for strafing a target was pretty much "Is it man-made or a person? Do I have ammo? Sure let's strafe it." which seems terrifyingly indiscriminate by our current standards. Well it was incredibly discriminate when compared to the practice of randomly dropping HE into populated areas either for "vengence" or in the vague hopes of disrupting the war economy.
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Oct 1, 2019 14:09
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everydayfalls posted:I don't doubt that the harbor was strafed that day but the way the story was told by my grandmother was that the Japanese where strafing the civilian cars on the road far from the harbor. I realized as I got older that there was a certain underlying current of racism in the story and the way she recounted it. I'm not saying that happened but a person seeing a few people watch what they mistook for an air show or general activity may have done just that. A whole lot of people didnt realize it was a true attack at first. Now add in racism and propaganda and you turn a few confused white kids into entire families of Japanese watching from the roofs.
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Oct 1, 2019 14:10
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MrYenko posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOCYcgOnWUM It's a good documentary, but my dad, a Vietnam Vet, feels it's McNamara trying to white wash his legacy by crying and acting contrite. I feel I agree somewhat, as he doesn't seem nearly as contrite during this meeting of past SecDefs for a PBS round table. He's still the same statistics freak he always was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPzvG7qFRI
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Oct 1, 2019 16:48
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"Ok who gave us syphilis"
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Oct 1, 2019 16:51
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MORE TAXES WHEN posted:Also it shows him strafing a lighthouse, because why not?
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Oct 1, 2019 16:52
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MORE TAXES WHEN posted:That first one, whoof. At 26:16: "Somebody in that field. Wonder who they are? No friends of mine." Followed by a strafing run on some guy in a field. We, or the Iraqi air force working for us, have no problems blowing the poo poo out of civilians literally all the time lol
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Oct 1, 2019 17:13
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Iran-Iraq, 1984 Its been two thread incarnations since the last one of these, but its time to try and push to finish this project off. The older threads are linked below, as is my website links for people who don’t have archives. Fair warning, this gets unpleasant. Previous thread post index. Terrorism in the Iran Iraq war (previous thread). Website versions of the lot, this one will appear at some point soon. Recap Just to recap where we got to in the last chronological post, ignoring the asides on the tanker war and terrorism: Iran has established its war aims, which are fundamentally unacceptable to Saddam and essentially serve as a declaration of intent for a war of annihilation on their side. Iran has started counter-attacking into Iraq, particularly notably around Basra at the start of what would come to be called the Dawn offensives that would take place up and down the border with Iran attempting to find a weak point to exploit. They have suffered significant casualties and almost the entire loss of the equipment of one of their few armoured divisions in attempting this and not gotten much territory in return, they have reached the outskirts of Basra and are starting to shell the city. Iran has really pissed off the USA and France by having their proxy Hezbollah conduct the Beirut bombings and as a result arms supplies to Iraq are being stepped up, the USSR has also thawed in their attitudes and are starting to supply Iraq with key assistance in codebreaking and weapon supply. I know I said previously I wouldn’t cover the dawn offensives, but I have decided I will because they demonstrate the frenetic pace of the war, with half a dozen major offensives taking place in a matter of months in 1983-84, but also because they demonstrate the evolving nature of the two armies and their approaches quite nicely. Major Iranian offensive operations of 1983-4  Map showing Dawn 1-4 and areas controlled by KDPI. Dawn II Both nations had significant problems with their Kurdish populations and would support the Kurdish revolutionary movements in each other nations vigorously throughout the war, in the eternal hope of the warring nation that with just this last shipment of weapons The People Will Rise Up. Particularly coming off the back of the chaos of the revolution the KDPI had exercised de facto control of a lot of north western Iran characterised by the three cities of Sardasht, Baneh and Bukan. However given the failure of attacks on Basra, Iran now needed to pass through that area to attack into Iraqi Kurdistan as shown in the map it was sitting pretty much across the major pass into Iraqi Kurdistan that they would need to control to pass through. The Iranian armed forces would assemble a force of 120’000 men against the PDKI’s 20’000 and the fight in that area would last a few short weeks with the Iranian Kurds being driven back into the mountains with their last remaining stronghold being the city of Baneh and many of their members seeking sanctuary in Iraq. At this time the KDPI (Kurdish Democratic Party of Iran) would enter a period of internal power struggle with factions who were unhappy with the leadership of Abdul Ghassemlou all vying for power, there would be several assassinations of his lieutenants and attempts upon his life as well. He would ultimately survive until the end of the war when he was assassinated by agents of Iran while in Vienna for peace talks in 1989.  Abdul Ghassemlou The Iranians were taking full advantage of this and were acting in concert with the KDP, (the Kurdistan Democratic Party, an Iraqi Kurdish faction controlled by the Barzanis). They sought to take the major KDPI center of Haj Omran to break their power in the area and boost the KDP and try to set off a general insurrection against Iraq in Kurdistan. After the taking of this border region the plan was to push west to Soran and then break out into the major oil areas surrounding Mosul if the assault went well, which would have a decent chance of inflicting such damage on Iraqs economy that the war might end very quickly afterwards. The involvement of the KDP in this attack directly would do much to stoke Kurdish infighting and enmity which continues to this day, whole families were deported to Iranian prison camps where many would die.  Iranian axis of attack. The Iranians brought three divisions to bear in Operation Dawn II, the 28th Mechanized division, which was comprised roughly of one third tanks and two thirds mechanized infantry, (The precise structure and quantities of Iran’s troops is very difficult to pin down). This regular Iranian army division was supported by a Pasdaran division who assaulted across the border while a Revolutionary guards infantry division assaulted north inside Iran itself, originating at Piranshahr and pushing into Kurdish areas as yet uncontrolled to track down and destroy KDPI elements that had escaped. The offensive went well initially with Iranian troops quickly overwhelming the Iraqi brigade who was guarding the border region and the PDKI troops in the region who realistically stood no chance at all, they penetrated ten miles deep into Iraqi territory on the first day of the offensive, July 22nd. However, Iraq was really on the ball at this stage and immediately responded by airlifting several elite infantry battalions to the area who counterattacked and slowed the Iranians while two divisions of infantry entered the area by road. The Soviets had recently delivered Mi-24 helicopters to Iraq and here was where we see that really starting to bite the Iranians. Their planes are largely occupied elsewhere, and the area didn’t have great airbase facilities in the first place which meant that these Iraqi helicopters were able to do immense damage to Iranian forces as they made their way across mountainous slopes, much as the Soviets were to do in Afghanistan. Iranians would use their own AH-1J Cobras though they had far fewer, this would be one of the couple of occasions where Iranian helicopters would score air to air victories against Iraqi planes when one of them would shoot down an Iraqi MiG-21 with its nose gun while it was going low and slow over the battlefield. However here we see the technological edge really starting to turn against Iran, Iraq is getting new weapons and they are not.  Adnan Kharillah (Right). Saddam himself would visit the battlefield on July 24th, and one of his more competent generals, Adnan Kharillah, his cousin, who would be one of the victims of “Helicopter Crashes” post-war. In very bloody fighting the Iranian attack would be turned back in 3 days of fighting and the Iraqis would immediately dig in hard as they had elsewhere. Iran maintained control of eleven villiages and some of the border area and would enact a pretty brutal regime with the area govered by exiles of hardline Dawa party (as covered more in depth earlier, a hardline Iraqi Shia party linked to Tehran). Casualties were heavy on both sides, with Iran suffering nearly 3’000 dead from their attacking forces, Iraq around 2’000 with unknown but probably very heavy casualties for the KDP and KDPI. Dawn 3  Rough Iranian attack plans for Dawn 3. Iran would keep pushing with another heavy attack taking place little over a week later on July 30th, they assembled 60’000 troops in 5 divisions, with 3 infantry, one mechanized and one armoured division from the regular army along with significant supporting light Pasdaran forces. Iraq still held positions inside the Iranian borders at the towns of Mehran and Dehloran and had constructed significant trench networks. The Iranian plan was to assault and take those positions and then push rapidly into Iraq to the Tigris and cut the Baghdad-Basra road which lay around twenty miles into Iraq. However with the increase of Iraqi professionalism and SIGINT they saw this coming and had their own forces in the area also comprised of 3 infantry, 1 armoured and 1 mechanized division. They launched a spoiling attack with their tanks which inflicted significant damage on the preparing Iranian infantry divisions before retiring. Iraq enjoyed an advantage in equipment as Iranian divisions were equipped with Chinese built Type 59 and 62 tanks against the Iraqi Soviet built T-72’s. It wasn’t a decisive edge certainly, but it is again indicative of the growing material gap in replacement equipment for each side. The battle would carry on for nearly a week with Iranian light infantry attacks at night causing significant problems, they would be inserted by low flying helicopters at night and attack from the rear. Iraq would abandon its positions and retreat into Iraq itself on the 2nd of August. During this confusion the Iranians attempted to exploit it with an armoured push but were checked by the arrival of a fresh Iraqi armoured division and heavy air attack, again in part from the newly arrived Iraqi Hinds. The battle would end on August 10th, with the Iranians having driven Iraq out of Iran in this area. Iraq suffered 6’600 killed or captured with unknown numbers wounded, Iran suffered 7000 dead and 15’000 wounded. Iraq would fire SCUD/FROG missiles at Dezful and other cities in southern Iran in retaliation, Iran would respond by heavily shelling Basra. Iran had up to this point maintained a belief that if they could only get into the city (itself a significant Shia area of Iraq) or near it then The People Will Rise Up and overthrow Saddam. However, this didn’t happen, so they decided to start shelling them anyway. The UNSC would demand the immediate end of bombardment of civilian population centers by both sides in resolution 540, Iraq accepted the resolution, but Iran would reject it. This would be an ongoing trend with Saddam attempting to get international pressure to stop the attacking of population centres but Iran rejecting it. After all, Iraq’s major population centers were closer to the border and much more vulnerable, while much of Irans lay safely behind the Zagroz mountains. It was a pretty shabby and cynical approach by both sides to it, but Iraq did come out looking slightly shinier in this particular salvo of the war of international relations. Dawn 4 Dawn 4 was another attempt to break the power of the KDPI by killing Ghassemlou who had taken refuge in the Penjwin valley in Iraq. This area was one of the major supply routes of equipment to PDKI forces still around Gavileh and Baneh in Iran. Iran would array two brigades of Pasdaran forces as the initial assault who infiltrated Iraq on the night of October 19th and would assault Iraqi defensive positions in the rear and overwhelm the Iraqi border batallion guarding the area. Then as dawn broke the regular army came through with two infantry divisions, two mechanized divisions and a tank brigade and attacked up the road into Iraq. However their armour was unable to advance at anything other than a walking pace, the road was essentially single file because it was a mountain road and a huge traffic jam developed, and they had light infantry climbing the hills to the side to protect them from flank attack and were reluctant to advance quicker than their supporting infantry were even when there was a chance to do so. Iraq however knew this attack was coming in the general area and had three infantry divisions and a combination of five mechanized and armoured brigades with oversized artillery support. Iran was stopped at the outskirts of Penjwin by an entrenched Iraqi division on October 22nd and was immediately counter attacked by the Iraqi’s under another of the more competent generals, Abdul Rashid, who would survive his competence and die in hospital in 2014 from complications from a stroke. Heavy air attack by Iraq’s newly arrived Su-25 and other air elements would cause incredible damage to Iranian forces in the narrow passes and the Iranians would be pushed back to the border in a matter of days. While this was going on, Pasdaran forces would surround and destroy the PDKI stronghold of Gavrileh. Few fighters managed to escape and make their way to Iraq. Iran however was not done with this attack, bringing up two fresh Pasdaran divisions they waited for weather to ground the Iraqi air force and attacked again on November 6th, having much more success as they took control of Penjwin this time and were pushing towards Sulaymaniah in the west. Iraq would respond by flying in two battalions of the republican guard equipped with copious quantities of mustard gas mortar shells. This would wreak havoc on the underequipped Pasdaran, and Iraq quickly took Penjwin back and would drive the Iranians back to the pass but not out of Iraq entirely when the start of winter snowfall would put an end to the offensive season. Casualties would be around 5’000 dead Iranian soldiers, mainly from the Pasdaran, 15’000 wounded, with 2’800 dead Iraqi soldiers and around 4’000 wounded. Iraq would now dig in and arm the 1’000 or so PDKI soldiers who escaped Iran and would serve in this area as auxiliaries to the Iraqi army for the remainder of the war. Dawn 5 and 6 and Operation Kheibar As the new year dawned the Iraqi’s were well entrenched across the entire front, it had been largely driven out of Iran. Iran had control of some areas of Iraqi territory, largely in Kurdistan but also some in the centre as a consequence of Dawn 3. Iran took the winter to consider its best option to try and knock Iraq out of the war quickly. They considered the following options: Major offensive in Kurdistan to seize the oilfields, cut the pipeline between Kirkuk and Dortyol in Turkey, destroying Iraqs monetary capability to fight. This was dismissed because of difficulties attacking in the northern mountainous region and also to avoid angering turkey who could pretty much destroy Irans economy if aggravated enough. Attack Baghdad to destroy the seat of Iraq’s regime. This was dismissed as Iran lacked the equipment to fight on the open plains which would be necessary to take the city. Attack Basra to cut Iraq off from the sea entirely and threaten the gulf states currently supplying Iraq more directly. This was dismissed because Iraq had heavily fortified Basra and they lacked the capability at this time to cross the Shatt-Al-Arab to bypass the defences. Capture the oilfields north of Basra in the marshlands and use them as a bargaining chip to force Iraq into an advantageous peace. This would present difficulties in supplying their troops across said marshlands and leave them open to air attack in the open areas. They decided to attack the oilfields north of Basra. Iran would use 400’000 men in this attack which represented two thirds of their armed forces at the time. They planned and executed a diversionary attack in Kurdistan to try and divert Iraqi reinforcements, this was executed on February 12th when a division of Pasdaran who had been trained for winter fighting in mountains crossed the Nosud pass and destroyed the Iraqi forces in that area. In concert with KDP forces they advanced towards the Darbandikhan Dam which provided power to Baghdad, they were stopped by a quick Iraqi counterattack. However Iraqi SIGINT was good enough that they realised this for what it was and didn’t over reinforce the area, waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Darbandikhan Dam Dawn 5 and 6 were then launched in the central areas, Dawn 5 took place in the same area as Dawn 3 as they assaulted towards the city of Kut with three divisions of infantry which failed to break through Iraqi trenches over five days of heavy fighting from February 16th to 21st. Dawn 6 was an attack by two mechanized divisions towards Ali al-Gharbi taking place at the same time. They were again stopped cold by the Iraqi trench networks and Iraq refused to fall for the Iranian bait and reinforce those sectors. However due to the parlous state of Iranian intelligence they had no idea of that and carried on with Operation Kheibar, named after the fortress captured by Muhammed one year before he took Mecca, to give an idea of the prominence assigned to it. Operation Kheibar was an attempt to capture the Basra marshes, particularly focused on the Hoveyzeh marshes, Majnoon islands and cutting the Baghdad-Basra road. Iraq had flooded these marshes to stop Iranian movement and kept light forces in the area assuming it to be fairly impassable. They would conduct this attack with nine divisions totalling 135’000 infantry. 80% of these were Pasadaran forces whose use of messenger and written communication impeded Iraqi intelligence gathering efforts. The Iraqis knew something big was coming, but not where.  Period photograph of Pasdaran forces and their boats in the marshes. February 22nd saw a heavy fog and rain which marked the right conditions for Iran to attack which was split into roughly two groups. They used hundreds of lightweight aluminium boats in an attack which swiftly took the entire area over the course of 36 hours. Having taken the marshlands to a point only two miles east of the Baghdad-Basra road at Al Qurnah and Al Sharish they sent light forces west to try and stop traffic on the road. However, they lacked heavy equipment to deal with Iraqi tanks. The other group attacked in the south, taking the Majnoon islands where they encountered much stiffer Iraqi resistance, which took four days for them to overcome but eventually Iran found itself in control of this major pocket of Iraq. It had a fairly insignificant direct impact on Iraqs economy as production there had already been stopped as their major facilities had been destroyed by Iranian shelling previously, however it represented nearly a sixth of Iraqs available oil reserves. The Iranians would then dig in and wait for Iraq’s response.  Major attacks and positions of Operation Kheibar They wouldn’t have to wait long, Iraqi high command panicked briefly due to the lack of forewarning for this attack but the 3rd and 4th corps managed to coordinate and both dispatched armoured brigades to assess the scale of the attacks in their respective areas and secure the road. This proved quickly too much for the Pasdaran who were unable to respond to them effectively and were frequently rolled straight over in their foxholes. However, getting perhaps a little overexcited, Iraqi tanks from the 3rd corps would pursue the fleeing Iranians into the marsh and 30 Iraqi tanks sank into the mud and were destroyed before the crews fled as Iran committed more reinforcements. Iraq would commit increasing numbers of helicopters to strafe Pasdaran positions, to which they had no real definitive answer, only enough light AA to mitigate their attacks by forcing them to keep higher.  Iranian soldiers conducting prayer atop the pontoon bridge. Iran constructed defensive positions furiously, with a pontoon bridge extending about 6 miles from the edge of the marsh area back to Iran, this would be furiously shelled but they managed to keep it operational by quick swapping in damaged sections in a remarkably efficient manner. Iran would commit all its reserves to this in an attempt to hold on to their gains. Soon there were six Iranian infantry divisions and one armoured division in the area, their front extended around thirty miles wide and ten miles deep into Iraqi territory. Iraqi generals however would respond very heavily, General Khairallah of IV Corps in the north would deploy Republican guard troops to heavy embattled areas to stiffen Iraqi resolve, order the employment of chemical weapons and divert the high-tension electrical lines into the marshes. These were the 200’000-volt lines previously used to supply the oil facilities that Iran had just taken. Chemical weapons were mustard gas fired from artillery and also light prop trainers who sprayed Tabun nerve agent. Tabun was a chemical developed in WW2 Germany from the same chemical family as Sarin gas, it is notably distinct in that it is much easier to manufacture, and as will become grimly relevant later, related to insecticides. These measures would prove dangerously effective with several thousand lightly equipped pasdaran dieing in the opening hours of these attacks on February 29th. Two days were left for the chemical weapons to dissipate until Iraq went in to retake the area where they found thousands of floating corpses in the marshes. Iraqi soldiers were issued with surgical hygiene masks which would have done little to protect them and there were doubtless some long-term health complications for them about which we know little. General Rashid of III corps followed a similar approach in the south, though gas efforts were less effective owing to a strong southerly wind, but the morale effect was sufficient that many of the Revolutionary Guards abandoned their positions and fled. Over the course of ten days much of the marshland was re-secured. Iran still held the Majnoon islands however and resisted attempts to dislodge them. Iraq had no water capability to speak of to attack the islands, they attempted to attack via helicopters but lost 8 Mi-8’s in the attempt, to Iranian AA fire that they had placed on barges surrounding the island and the attack was repulsed. Iran reinforced heavily, including its only remaining SA-7 missiles and its entire store of chemical protective equipment. Iranian chinooks would ferry reinforcements in and remove wounded at night. This entered a period of stalemate however and marked the end of offensive operations for some time on March 12th, 1984. 20’000 Iranians had been killed, 30’000 wounded and 1’000 captured. Iraq had suffered the loss of 3’000 dead and 9’000 wounded, as well as 60 tanks, though 30 of those to their own incompetence. An especially sobering note to this story is that of the Revolutionary Guards forces committed to this assault 57% of them were under the age of 18 with children as young as 12 being found among the dead, and they represented a third of the casualties. It was not initially Iranian policy to use child soldiers in frontline Pasdaran positions, but as losses mounted and in preparation for significant attacks like this the Pasdaran would draw from the Basijj to swell their numbers and replenish losses. This would remain the state of affairs for quite some time. Iran’s supreme council was divided on the effects of this attack, the army called the Pasdarans activities as foolish and dangerous and a waste of life and pushed for an end to offensive operations until Iran could secure anti-tank and anti-air missiles to nullify Iraqi equipment. The Pasdaran fired back by criticising the army and air force for not supporting them and pushing for further offensives. However the Supreme defence council voted to end Iranian offensive operations by a ratio of 4 : 1. The follow up offensives were cancelled. Saddam on the other hand was playing the international politics game and refused to mount huge offensives that would necessitate heavy chemical weapon usage as such activities were attracting significant international condemnation. Both sides would now go on an international shopping spree and reinforce. Soon would begin the war of the cities, where they would bombard each other’s population centres as an attempt to break each other’s civilian morale, which went about as well as it ever does. There would be one more offensive that year, Dawn 7 would involve two divisions of the Iranian army again attacking in the Mehran sector towards Kut. However, decoded messages gave the Iraqis ample time to reinforce and they stopped it easily. That would also not represent the end of the Dawn offensives with 8 and 9 to follow in 1985. Development of Iraqi intelligence capabilities.  Crypto-52 machine, designed by Boris Hagelin in 1952 and produced by Crypto AG.  Close up of the arabic cipher reels. Since the start of the war Saddam had been careful to maintain good relations with everyone he could, in the hopes they could be induced to provide him with the equipment and support he needed to fight the war. Iraq with its much smaller population was compelled to fight a more high-tech war in order to compensate for Iran’s numbers. It could not afford to alienate international opinion in the way that Iran felt itself able or compelled to do. As you may have noticed a frequent refrain in Iranian offensive operations is the Iraqi’s know what they are doing quickly and respond. This is because of the Iraqi decoding unit, a highly secretive section that reported directly to Saddam. Initially, they did standard decoding work using Crypto-54 machines produced by the Swiss Crypto corporations which meant they could use to decode at a slow rate Iranian radio traffic, however it was not a perfect match for the equipment Iran was using at the time. An Iranian defector arrived in 1981 carrying a full set of books, rotors and the machine itself, a Crypto-52, which enabled Iraq to read pretty much every bit of Iranian radio traffic they cared to for the next 2 years. However, they could not intercept Revolutionary Guards traffic because they did not use radio, relying primarily on hand delivering messages. So when the Rev. Guards did offensives off their own bat the Iraqis were generally surprised by them in the early years of the war because they depended very heavily on intercepted traffic. This of course made coordinating Pasdaran and regular army actions even harder and limited tactical communication of Pasdaran forces as a cost for that. Iran were not completely oblivious of this problem, in 1983 they would acquire the new Crypto- T450 machine which replaced their old Crypto 52’s. The 52’s were essentially developments of the rotor type cipher machines typified by Enigma. They were indeed originally made in the 1950’s. However the T450 was an electronic machine representing state of the commercial art. Iraq responded by opening their wallet, going to Japan and buying significant computing hardware to decode this, sending 1500 of their brightest technicians to japan for training. They would also call on the KGB who would send some of their best cryptographers to assist in return for a fully intact F-4 Phantom II that had been only lightly damaged after a belly landing in Iraq, and also Yugoslavia who was induced via cash payments to send some of their best specialists. Iran would modify its codes frequently, but it would take Iraq only a matter of weeks before they had broken the new ciphers. The biggest problem Iraq had was a lack of Farsi speakers, only three Iraqi soldiers could speak Farsi to any degree of fluency in 1979 and Iraq would scramble to increase that number throughout the war. Saddam would keep a tight grip on this flow of information to attempt to cultivate a mystique among his generals that he was able to divine Iranian intentions accurately. Iraq was also far more successful in cultivating human intelligence networks, Iran was a very repressive regime, particularly towards Kurds and Arabs in their borders, refugees fled across the border and any who could speak Farsi were snapped up to work in translation, though the low literacy rate was a problem in plugging that gap. Many still were persuaded to return and act as intelligence sources. They also established reconnaissance group 888 who would infiltrate through the more porous Iranian lines into their rear area and conduct sabotage and intelligence gathering. They would also receive the latest in reconnaissance hardware from the USSR, with MiG-25R’s which flew high and fast for photo reconnaissance over Iranian positions, they were also given satellite photos by the USSR, the French and the USA at various points. The most enduring relationship being that with the USA for satellite reconnaissance. Iraq would build a very impressive and modern intelligence network from a very low starting point.  MiG-25R reconnaissance variant. To contrast, Iran inherited a world class intelligence system built for the Shah by the CIA. They had ground-based intercept stations in the Zagros mountains that captured much Iraqi radio traffic, three specially built C-130 for ELINT gathering at altitude which had powerful magnification cameras that could spy into Iraq from safe positions over Iran, as well as an existing staff of Arabic speakers who could effectively decode Iraqi messages. However, as you may have already guessed, the majority of people who knew how to work these systems fled, were imprisoned or shot in the revolution. When they had to try and rebuild it, they released some of their staff from prison, but they were unable to get it back up and running again at anything approaching a useful capacity. Iran was reduced to using its F-4’s to do low level photography runs over Iraqi territory which cost them six of their very limited stockpiles of these planes. They had some human sources among opponents to the Saddam regime, who were certainly not lacking, but a lack of a good electronic intelligence apparatus would hurt Iran badly. State of the war in 1984. The most important feature of these offensives, (including the one mentioned in the previous post, towards Basra), was that Iran was really spending equipment at a significant rate that it couldn’t afford to lose. Iraq is receiving significantly sophisticated weapons from the USSR that it is using to good effect while the best that Iran is really receiving is the Type 59 tank from China. They are enjoying significant success with light infantry tactics but those are inherently limited to the mountainous areas, the second they come up against heavy resistance in areas they are not suited for it starts to run into problems. The lack of air support, poor logistical structures caused not least by a lack of automobile transport and a lack of sophisticated anti-tank missiles is undermining their effectiveness badly. While the repeat rate of these attacks is good, Iraq is able to quickly manoeuvre to block with its helicopter and mechanized reserves as Iran cannot launch more than one attack at once due to these limitations. There is also still significant squabbling and infighting between Revolutionary Guard forces and Iranian Army which is making planning these attacks an utter headache for them. This also marked the start of widescale chemical weapon use by the Iraqi’s against Iran. Which would not relent and would expand to be used against Kurdish militias in the latter stages of the war. In many ways the war starts to resemble WW1 with significant trench lines, human wave attacks and chemical weapons as a response to that. This is a bit of a PR problem for Saddam who is making significant gains in the international sphere, Tariq Aziz spends probably more of his time abroad this year, than in Iraq, soothing creditors, securing arms deals and generally putting himself about. Iran is starting to run into its own problems, riding high off Iraqi incompetence and their own ability to throw men at the problem has gotten them this far. That is not necessarily meant as an indictment of their capability, they used the resources they had very effectively. But now Iraq has gotten smart and they need to start applying themselves a bit more artfully and increase their technological sophistication. Both sides are attempting to portray the other as the villains via any international body they can. Iran attempted to denounce Iraq for use of chemical weapons in violation of the Geneva protocols of 1925, they sent high profile victims of Iraqi blister gas use to European hospitals in a deliberate attempt to create a media circus. The UN would unequivocally rule that Iraq was using chemical weapons. Iraq’s attempts to deflect criticism on this matter didn’t work, their approach was to say they were not using them near civilian populations and were using them judiciously. An attempt to denounce Iraq in the security council was however blocked by both the US and USSR. The US was trying to butter up Iraq to restore relations and the USSR was trying to evade the precedent when they were up to dodgy activities with chemical weapons themselves in Afghanistan. After mounting pressure from the Israel lobby who were permanently concerned more with Iraq than Iran, and from many American members of congress when it was revealed US companies were providing the capability to build chemical weapons the US did issue a condemnation and blanket embargo and pressured others to do the same. Notably West Germany was very complicit in this with the supply of “Pesticide manufacturing equipment” to Iraq. When this was cut off in September of 1984 after growing US pressure, the Iraqis went to East Germany who were more than delighted to sell to them, this equipment would be key for Iraq’s domestic nerve gas program. Iraq would also be supplied by dozens of companies from dozens of countries as well, including the USSR who shipped them their first mustard gas, Spain who sold them dispensing canisters, Egypt who sold them gas artillery shells as well as companies from Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Lebanon. Iraq took the case of Iranian treatment of Iraqi POW’s to the ICRC however and successfully got Iran indicted for a systematic program of torture and poor treatment of Iraqi prisoners which formed a significant part of their intelligence gathering methods. This garnered significant international attention at the time and did much to deflect attention away from the chemical weapons use of Iraq. Both sides now are starting to run short of numbers, Iraq now has nearly a million Egyptian guest workers who are keeping their economy running. There is rising discontent among some of the populace which forces Iraq to implement a rotation system where for every 2 weeks on the line a soldier gets one week in the rear. It also puts significant money into consumer goods and comforts for its populace. The low literacy rates of many of the men it is forced to use is hampering their effectiveness to some degree. Iran on the other hand is expanding its use of child soldiers to a breath-taking degree, employing systematic recruitment in their schools, the average age of enrolment in the Basijj militia interviewed by the UN in Iraqi prison camps is 14. Iran are also observed to be using Pakistani and Afghani volunteers in their forces with certain allegations of coercion used in their recruitment. The PUK (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan), headed by Jalal Talabani, took this moment to assure Saddam of their neutrality and negotiated for slightly more autonomy in return for this. Saddam was all too happy to grant this as Iraq could not under any circumstances afford a widescale Kurdish insurgency in their oil areas. Iraq has recognised and fortified its positions and taken internal political measures with the PUK that secure their northern frontier and their fortifications elsewhere have held. Iraq was conducting a concerted charm offensive to the international community with Saddam quashing major offensives to portray Iraq as the victim of Iranian fundamentalist aggression. Which was all the veil that many countries needed to sell him the weapons he needed. A topic we will be diving into as we progress through 1984 as both sides settle in for the long war. Polyakov fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 18:16
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Remulak posted:Uh, wow. Is this new to anybody else? It’s mind-blowing in a post 9/11 context and I didn’t want it lost. It was socially acceptable to be heinously racist to the Japanese until the 70s. My grandpa has worse stories of what he had to deal with, that's relatively benign and harmless in comparison.
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Oct 1, 2019 18:57
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I'm the Celtic Grandgore on the disease map.
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Oct 1, 2019 19:02
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The 80s were all about Japan panic, but I guess that was more racism at the worker bee-like nature of Japanese salarymen than issei and nisei
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Oct 1, 2019 19:02
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zoux posted:"Ok who gave us syphilis"
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Oct 1, 2019 19:02
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I take it the English were at war with both the Spanish and French in the 16th c.
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Oct 1, 2019 19:04
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Polyakov posted:Iran-Iraq, 1984
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Oct 1, 2019 19:25
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zoux posted:I take it the English were at war with both the Spanish and French in the 16th c. Aside from the civil wars and punching poor Ireland when they were down, yes.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:47
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Is the isle of man brown?
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Oct 1, 2019 20:48
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SeanBeansShako posted:Aside from the civil wars and punching poor Ireland when they were down, yes. I can't believe it wasn't called "The Fookin English disease" over on the Auld Sod
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Oct 1, 2019 20:49
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zoux posted:I can't believe it wasn't called "The Fookin English disease" over on the Auld Sod I mean most of the fighting was over seas in the Caribbean and new world. Some mercenaries might have brought some stuff over in the 30 years of fun on the continent. I doubt an awkward drunken attempt at invading a Spanish port could spread disease that quickly. Knowing the English though, they wouldn't not try.
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Oct 1, 2019 20:58
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zoux posted:I take it the English were at war with both the Spanish and French in the 16th c. Check out a) when we finally lost Calais and b) when the Spanish Armada was.
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Oct 1, 2019 21:30
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lol @ being english ever
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Oct 1, 2019 21:35
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is it whom you were at war with or where your soldiers were hanging around/where the soldiers hanging around your country were from
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Oct 1, 2019 21:35
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I feel like this was probably covered in a previous post, but how did Saddam end up being supported by both the US and USSR again? Iran was really bad at diplomacy
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Oct 1, 2019 21:36
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Polyakov posted:Holland, the Netherlands Um this is a bit like saying 'England, the UK'...
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Oct 1, 2019 21:38
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Squalid posted:I feel like this was probably covered in a previous post, but how did Saddam end up being supported by both the US and USSR again? Iran was really bad at diplomacy Everyone in the neighbourhood was scared stiff of the spread of revolutionary islamism, meanwhile Uncle Sam wanted to secure the flow of energy. I wonder if there is some statistic on the sources of Iraqi arms imports during the Iran war somewhere. France would probably rank high in the list. edit: ah, that was easy to find. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRI_Arms_Transfers_Database,_Iraq_1973%E2%80%931990 Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 1, 2019 |
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Oct 1, 2019 22:03
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lmao it’s a circular firing squad of drippy dicks
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Oct 1, 2019 22:05
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TK-42-1 posted:lmao it’s a circular firing squad of drippy dicks Even in the 1500s everyone knew that the English didn't f uck
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Oct 1, 2019 22:12
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I don't want to belabor this, but it is fascinating to see Don Rumsfeld and Robert McNamara speaking on the same panel.
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Oct 1, 2019 22:24
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So where was it portugese disease e: oh, japan.
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Oct 1, 2019 22:41
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Japan.
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Oct 1, 2019 22:42
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zoux posted:The 80s were all about Japan panic, but I guess that was more racism at the worker bee-like nature of Japanese salarymen than issei and nisei Also racism about easily duped and insensitive Japanese tourists
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Oct 1, 2019 22:48
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Isn't there a forehead slapping smiley?
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Oct 1, 2019 22:49
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