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Wheeee posted:There are exactly two real RWD sports cars on the market for sub-Porsche money, the 86 and the Miata. If you want a sports car, a FWD hatch isn't going to satisfy. I think you're forgetting about the Corvette. It's not Miata-cheap but even if you meant a Porsche Boxster it's below that. JK Fresco posted:They just need an excuse for why they aren't buying the car they pinky swear promised to buy if only the carmakers would make them I don't think it's unreasonable for a car in 2019 starting at $27k to have more than 150 ft/lbs of torque. davebo fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Oct 3, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2019 02:28
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I feel like if they tuned the torque dip out from factory people would not complain that much about that engine. Not only do they have it, BUT THEY SHOW IT TO YOU ON A GRAPH WHILE YOU'RE DRIVING. This was a very dumb feature to include because that's a huge impact on your feelings and really that's what matters - that's why fake engine noise is so popular. I've always found it strange why it's slower than a Miata to 60.
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Oct 3, 2019 04:18
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BraveUlysses posted:they dont 'matter' but it's prudent to remind everyone at every opportunity how egregiously slow the 86 is In my hands the 86 isn't slow at all. Just like the MX-5. Honestly this whole Waaawaaa 86 slow!!!! is absolutely loving dumb as gently caress bullshit by bench racers. And hypocritical as gently caress when the MX-5 gets a pass. Drive the ringer off it and welp no it's not slow at all. CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Oct 3, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2019 04:36
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Honestly this whole Waaawaaa 86 slow!!!! is absolutely loving dumb as gently caress bullshit by bench racers. And hypocritical as gently caress when the MX-5 gets a pass. Drive the ringer off it and welp no it's not slow at all. What is this bullshit where anyone critiquing cars on a car forum is crying like a baby? We're interested in cars and we're noting where some cars don't measure up. Your idiotic notion that we should all go pay msrp for a car based on how fun it seems regardless of features or specs doesn't seem like a great idea. And if anyone (certainly not me) is giving the Miata a pass regarding being underpowered it's only because everyone here is buying old used ones. But I will say new they cost less than a gt86 and are convertibles so there's certainly value in that if that's what people are looking for. davebo fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Oct 3, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2019 04:53
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http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/suzuki-concepts-2019-tokyo-motor-show-wakuspo/quote:Suzuki has released images of its upcoming concepts for the Tokyo Motor Show, and they are pretty much bonkers.           EXCITING MODE!
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Oct 3, 2019 09:50
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davebo posted:What is this bullshit where anyone critiquing cars on a car forum is crying like a baby? Say... the post I quoted? quote:Your idiotic notion that we should all go pay msrp for a car based on how fun it seems regardless of features or specs Ummmm..... how fun a car is actually a drat good reason to buy it. If a sports cat ain't making you grin every time you swing it into a corner then why exactly would you buy it? Bonus points if you are giggling overtaking a much more powerful car around the outside. We might be living in a world of blunt weapon grip monsters but fingers and toes controllable handling machines like the 86 and MX-5 are a blessed relief from that curse.
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Oct 3, 2019 11:16
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Say... the post I quoted? Like a Tesla?
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Oct 3, 2019 12:00
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Ummmm..... how fun a car is actually a drat good reason to buy it. If a sports cat ain't making you grin every time you swing it into a corner then why exactly would you buy it? Bonus points if you are giggling overtaking a much more powerful car around the outside. It’s almost like how “fun” a car is, is subjective. and one metric that is of importance to me is the visceral feeling of “fast”. But what do I know I drive an Sti because the insurance cost of a BRZ is too expensive.
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Oct 3, 2019 12:09
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The 86 is slow, but it’s successful enough and it drives very well. Relax everyone. The Miata is the same way. Personally, I am happy with my 86 GT. I don’t really care that the guy that drives a bloated Kia sedan that nobody in the entire world wanted or buys (outside of Internet car forums) thinks of them.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:41
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JK Fresco posted:They just need an excuse for why they aren't buying the car they pinky swear promised to buy if only the carmakers would make them This isn't happening though. A bunch of people aren't buy the car that's closest to what they promised to buy but still not quite there, because as it turns out it's not close enough to what they wanted. For example, bunch of people, such as myself, all wanted an AWD hot hatch, and judging by the number of Golf Rs I see around my city every day, we all decided to buy the one that was offered, even at its high price. The saying doesn't go "build 80% of it and they will come."
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Oct 3, 2019 14:44
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davebo posted:What is this bullshit where anyone critiquing cars on a car forum is crying like a baby? We're interested in cars and we're noting where some cars don't measure up. Your idiotic notion that we should all go pay msrp for a car based on how fun it seems regardless of features or specs doesn't seem like a great idea. And if anyone (certainly not me) is giving the Miata a pass regarding being underpowered it's only because everyone here is buying old used ones. But I will say new they cost less than a gt86 and are convertibles so there's certainly value in that if that's what people are looking for. There is a particular reason the Miata has lasted as long as it has. It’s an excellent car and it proves you don’t need a lot of power to be a successful track car. It’s also probably the most widely used track car on the planet.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:47
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Remember the time GM built a V8 RWD Manual Sedan powered by an LS V8 with sleeper styling and good equipment levels? Y’know, the car everyone said they wanted? About that...
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Oct 3, 2019 14:49
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The 86 is good for what it is; a follow up to an underpowered early-1980s RWD Toyota Corolla.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:50
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PT6A posted:This isn't happening though. A bunch of people aren't buy the car that's closest to what they promised to buy but still not quite there, because as it turns out it's not close enough to what they wanted. “A bunch of people wanted an AWD Hot Hatch”. Yeah man, huge market. Which is why there is approximately one (1) for sale in North American market. LMAO Jesus Christ it costs just as much as an Camaro SS in my country. Wow, what a deal.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:54
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PT6A posted:This isn't happening though. A bunch of people aren't buy the car that's closest to what they promised to buy but still not quite there, because as it turns out it's not close enough to what they wanted. Yeah, this is the argument that frustrates me the most. The average length of time to keep a car in the US is 6 years. Most families might have multiple cars, but most individuals don't. Car purchases are big decisions that most people are going to have to live with for a while, so it's not like there's some huge group of buyers saying "well, this car is half way to what I want, I guess I'll spend $30k to show my support." It's the exact same issue that comes up with modern manual transmissions. If it's only available on a base model or with a base engine or with lesser options packages, then lots of people are going to pass or buy used instead. Very few people are going to accept major compromises on exceptionally large purchases that they're going to keep for years.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:55
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I would argue the 86 is unsatisfying due to the dead spot in the middle of the power band. It handles great, is a blast when you're not in the dead zone.
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Oct 3, 2019 15:29
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Im not spending 40k+ on something and not getting exactly what I want because lmao gently caress that
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Oct 3, 2019 15:41
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I would have bought a Singer GT AWD in a heartbeat instead of the Golf R if it was offered with a manual transmission. I probably would have made more effort to find and deal on a Volester N or Civic Type R if they had heated seats. I probably would have bought a new WRX a year or two ago if they still had a hatch. I just might have ended up with a Model 3 AWD Performance if I didn't have to redo the electrical in my house to accommodate it. Of all the choices out there, the styling snoozefest of the Golf felt like the least compromise. Everything else was a dealbreaker for me. I work from home now and the Golf has a 6 year bumper to bumper warranty so I'm not expecting very much to have to be done with it for a very long time. In the meantime I'll probably get my house ready for our electrified overlords because I'm guessing the Golf will be the last new car I buy that can't be plugged in (which is the main reason why I was so adamant on getting one last manual transmission in.)
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Oct 3, 2019 16:01
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Stop trying to blame this poo poo on consumers and instead blame it directly on the real problem, shareholders. Trying to squeeze out as much profit as possible out of all the things is exactly what's wrong with industries where entertainment is involved, be it sports cars, movies, or video games. The best and most popular stuff is always people making a thing first, then worrying about the profit later. Then those things end up getting recycled and the names slapped on everything else to try to convince people it's the same (see Mitsubishi Eclipse or the coming Mustang SUV). There is money to be made in a whole lot of things but it isn't enough to make a profit, no, you have to make THE MOST. Shareholders ruin it all.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:18
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Goober Peas posted:I would argue the 86 is unsatisfying due to the dead spot in the middle of the power band. It handles great, is a blast when you're not in the dead zone. The engine in it is such a disappointment. I get that you can mostly get rid of the torque dip with a tune and headers but that poo poo shouldn't be necessary. A better engine and I would have bought one.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:19
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fknlo posted:The engine in it is such a disappointment. Subaru.txt right now. They can't factory tune an engine to give anywhere near a good experience on any of the current lineup.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:21
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KakerMix posted:Stop trying to blame this poo poo on consumers and instead blame it directly on the real problem, shareholders. Trying to squeeze out as much profit as possible out of all the things is exactly what's wrong with industries where entertainment is involved, be it sports cars, movies, or video games. Eh, it's more complicated than this I think. A lot of has to do with the way the dealership purchasing process works along with manufacturer incentives on that side. It all comes down to profit, but the real problem is that cars don't work like a lot of other markets because of the way that vehicles actually get from the factory to the final owner. It makes more sense to build something that no one actively hates than something that someone might love, because the former isn't is less likely to sit unsold on a lot. Financing, incentives, and delivery time all work against buyers who might want something more tailor suited to their wants as well, which just completes the death spiral. So yeah, it's about profit, but it's a problem at multiple levels that's hollowing out the already very small enthusiast segment.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:37
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:In my hands the 86 isn't slow at all. I think the issue is that the 86 is heavy for what it is. It's not a convertible, so it doesn't need additional strengthening. It should be 200 lbs less. Also, too much weight over the nose.
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Oct 3, 2019 20:25
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I never really expected to hear an "it's too heavy" argument for a 2700lb car.
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Oct 3, 2019 20:31
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KakerMix posted:Stop trying to blame this poo poo on consumers and instead blame it directly on the real problem, shareholders. Trying to squeeze out as much profit as possible out of all the things is exactly what's wrong with industries where entertainment is involved, be it sports cars, movies, or video games. Toyota is probably not making any money off the 86 at all soo
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Oct 3, 2019 20:47
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Olympic Mathlete posted:http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/suzuki-concepts-2019-tokyo-motor-show-wakuspo/ This looks so drat weird in concept; I love it Waku Waku Panic
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Oct 3, 2019 20:55
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bull3964 posted:I never really expected to hear an "it's too heavy" argument for a 2700lb car. It's not that 2700lb is heavy, it's that the Miata weighs 2300lb, with a ton of lightweight considerations all over the car (aluminum everywhere for instance). Whereas the BRZ has a bunch of stamped steel econobox parts underneath.
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Oct 3, 2019 22:30
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Russian Bear posted:It's not that 2700lb is heavy, it's that the Miata weighs 2300lb, with a ton of lightweight considerations all over the car (aluminum everywhere for instance). Whereas the BRZ has a bunch of stamped steel econobox parts underneath. I mean yeah the BRZ/86 also has a 2+2 configuration and was built off of a modified Impreza chassis they're often grouped together in discussion but I feel like that's a bit uncharitable to the 86/BRZ which comes with more day-to-day usability in terms of cargo space once you fold the seats down like of course the Miata is going to win that fight
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Oct 3, 2019 22:46
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Russian Bear posted:It's not that 2700lb is heavy, it's that the Miata weighs 2300lb, with a ton of lightweight considerations all over the car (aluminum everywhere for instance). Whereas the BRZ has a bunch of stamped steel econobox parts underneath. If they did that then you would complain about the price
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Oct 3, 2019 23:08
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They should have stuck with a live axle like the original, would have saved a bunch of weight.
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Oct 3, 2019 23:17
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JK Fresco posted:If they did that then you would complain about the price How does mazda do it for less money?
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Oct 3, 2019 23:24
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Russian Bear posted:How does mazda do it for less money? A new Miata is barely cheaper (within $1k of the Toyota) and it's a smaller car with a smaller engine and more sales volume
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Oct 3, 2019 23:30
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and the ND needed Fiat's help to spread the development costs around
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Oct 4, 2019 00:14
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FBS posted:and the ND needed Fiat's help to spread the development costs around As opposed to Subaru and Toyota spreading the dev costs around?
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Oct 4, 2019 00:37
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So from all of this discussion so far: Mazda did the thing better and more efficiently; will sell more; can't fit as much stuff.
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Oct 4, 2019 00:41
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ultimately the problem goes back to the same one everything has which is the middle is pretty much gone so you have a very large amount of vehicle buyers who can't afford much and a very small amount of buyers who'll buy two luxury SUVs a year
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Oct 4, 2019 01:57
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Russian Bear posted:So from all of this discussion so far: Mazda did the thing better and more efficiently; will sell more; can't fit as much stuff. The difference in practicality and size between a 2 seater roadster and a 2+2 that can fit a full set of tires in the back is pretty significant. Especially since the BRZ/86 project was on much more tenuous footing financially And again, the base Miata costs the same as the 86. JK Fresco fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 02:17
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The twins are parts bin cars that, by all rights, shouldn't even exist given the two entities that made them. It's an engineers 'what if' sketch on the back of a napkin that shouldn't work but does and managed to get a shitton right on the first attempt. The Miata is a 30 year old mature design that's on its 4th generation. It's amazing they are compared at all. For people like me, I'm thankful for the existence of the twins since it's physically impossible for me to drive a Miata because it's too small. My knees hit the steering wheel and my head is above the windshield. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 02:26
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Yea the Miata, a 30 year long development project and halo product for the brand is in a lot of ways better than a limited scale side project Sadly the Miata is realistically a second car, and also the good one in Canada is $43k
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Oct 4, 2019 02:27
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Paradoxish posted:Eh, it's more complicated than this I think. A lot of has to do with the way the dealership purchasing process works along with manufacturer incentives on that side. It all comes down to profit, but the real problem is that cars don't work like a lot of other markets because of the way that vehicles actually get from the factory to the final owner. It makes more sense to build something that no one actively hates than something that someone might love, because the former isn't is less likely to sit unsold on a lot. Yep. This is much more the case than blaming evil shareholders (who can be evil but they’re not the ones stopping VW from importing brown manual sportwagons).
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Oct 4, 2019 02:58
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