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I maintain that the big problem with warlock dips is not the warlock dip as-such, but that there are DMs in the world who are for some reason (the reason is social anxiety) afraid to make the hag, demon, or starspawn collective demand their due of that player and that player alone. "oh but i took celestial pact!!!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaLLy-U8MkI&t=91s Oh really? You made it through a whole adventuring career without a single sin? Amazing. Astounding this story you made in the collaborative storytelling effort.
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Oct 3, 2019 06:16
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kingcom posted:So you're saying there is no taunt mechanic then. The warlock can also avail themselves of the taunt mechanic if they want to die, faster. Better, even! For whatever reason.
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Oct 3, 2019 06:22
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Willie Tomg posted:I maintain that the big problem with warlock dips is not the warlock dip as-such, but that there are DMs in the world who are for some reason (the reason is social anxiety) afraid to make the hag, demon, or starspawn collective demand their due of that player and that player alone You are very brave
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Oct 3, 2019 06:25
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Conspiratiorist posted:You are very brave Go on. I'm so close. (i apologize to the thread, we're apparently doing this again, with the guy who doesn't like 5e that much and the joke in this post is this thread is so hosed up it could be either me or Conspiratiorist but for the record its definitely Conspiratiorist)
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Oct 3, 2019 06:32
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Willie Tomg posted:Go on. I'm so close. Go read pages 193 thru 196 then get back to me.
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Oct 3, 2019 06:40
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In which book tho 🤔🤔🤔
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Oct 3, 2019 06:56
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Quidthulhu posted:In which book tho 🤔🤔🤔 This thread.
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Oct 3, 2019 07:04
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Who says they have to be found one by one? You could have a big armoury at the bottom of a dungeon, or some rich NPC outfits the party with them in preparation for a big quest. Finding them all in the same dungeon could be "a thing". I'm wary of just having some rear end in a top hat NPC go "oh by the way here are some of the most powerful and rare weapons of the land. be good now".
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Oct 3, 2019 07:09
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Willie Tomg posted:I maintain that the big problem with warlock dips is not the warlock dip as-such, but that there are DMs in the world who are for some reason (the reason is social anxiety) afraid to make the hag, demon, or starspawn collective demand their due of that player and that player alone. Real talk for everyone skimming, don't do this to your players holy poo poo.
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Oct 3, 2019 07:13
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I generally don't allow multiclassing without some kind of story justification (not even like a good one I'll accept "I took a year off during downtime to learn how to be really angry" or "the paladin's been teaching me how to stand up fight so now I'm a rogue/fighter") but punishing your players for multiclassing is some old school adversarial GM bullshit
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Oct 3, 2019 07:32
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Is there something in those warlock patrons that would punish multiclassing? Or am i missing something here?
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Oct 3, 2019 08:08
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DJ Dizzy posted:Is there something in those warlock patrons that would punish multiclassing? Or am i missing something here? We're discussing the notions that the Warlock class should have narrative strings attached to it, specifically some kind of detrimental cost to the character.
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Oct 3, 2019 08:19
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Blockhouse posted:I generally don't allow multiclassing without some kind of story justification (not even like a good one I'll accept "I took a year off during downtime to learn how to be really angry" or "the paladin's been teaching me how to stand up fight so now I'm a rogue/fighter") but punishing your players for multiclassing is some old school adversarial GM bullshit If you go any PHB pact, or go celestial pact an act like a Gamer, you're not being punished. You're being obliged.
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Oct 3, 2019 08:47
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Willie Tomg posted:I maintain that the big problem with warlock dips is not the warlock dip as-such, but that there are DMs in the world who are for some reason (the reason is social anxiety) afraid to make the hag, demon, or starspawn collective demand their due of that player and that player alone. Holy poo poo. Every time I worry that I'm a bad DM or that I might be mean to my players because of years spent trying to run for muchkining, powergaming assholes who make PurpleXVI look like harmless sheep? I run into people like you and realize that I could be way, way loving worse.
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Oct 3, 2019 08:51
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DJ Dizzy posted:Is there something in those warlock patrons that would punish multiclassing? Or am i missing something here? There is no downside to selling a part of yourself to hags, devils, or primordial forces for two levels in order to gain fighter attack progression. In fact you'd be stupid not to, RAW, in the feels-before-reals rule block. Furthermore, it is simply not possible to create an organic threat in a combat encounter which creates a "tank" in the aggregate of someone with high AC and saves. I like this edition a lot by the way.
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Oct 3, 2019 08:57
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Fivemarks posted:Holy poo poo. Every time I worry that I'm a bad DM or that I might be mean to my players because of years spent trying to run for muchkining, powergaming assholes who make PurpleXVI look like harmless sheep? I run into people like you and realize that I could be way, way loving worse. The best way I saw a Great Old One pact get handled was the DM doing a quick sideline with the warlock with a pack of Starspawn away from the rest of the party after a big quest beat. And they were given the boon of the starspawn mage where when they died, they'd just turn into worms. They were given this gift because the dread comet Mol was arriving, and in addition to what they were due according to their pact as the prophet and herald of the Becoming of all life on this iteration of the Prime Material. Even if they killed themselves to escape it, they would have this "gift". And that, plus three other reasons, is why the party decided to take a big ol' field trip to Sigil to have a private conversation and clear the air of some stuff. Sorry you can't think of a creative way to involve warlocks in the story when literally everything about them invokes extraplanar divinity oh well. Perhaps you'd like Strike homebrew better?
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Oct 3, 2019 09:11
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Whenever our warlock failed a check we blamed it on his patron distracting him. The Warlock did not have failed checks forced upon him for having a patron.
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Oct 3, 2019 09:18
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Willie Tomg posted:The best way I saw a Great Old One pact get handled was the DM doing a quick sideline with the warlock with a pack of Starspawn away from the rest of the party after a big quest beat. And they were given the boon of the starspawn mage where when they died, they'd just turn into worms. They were given this gift because the dread comet Mol was arriving, and in addition to what they were due according to their pact as the prophet and herald of the Becoming of all life on this iteration of the Prime Material. Even if they killed themselves to escape it, they would have this "gift".
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Oct 3, 2019 09:19
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I think the only way to do good warlock patrons is either: Rarely interacts, and foreshadow the eventual dreaded? meeting that requests something of the warlock that's adjacent with the main plot or A guiding voice that is flawed in some way that the dm and/or player uses to set up a slow character transformation arc
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Oct 3, 2019 11:11
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Willie Tomg posted:Sorry you can't think of a creative way to involve warlocks in the story when literally everything about them invokes extraplanar divinity So, should a Cleric's God constantly be harassing the party as well? And why? That's more explicitly an extraplanar divine bond than the Warlock, which straight up states that Patrons can potentially not even be aware you exist.
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Oct 3, 2019 12:08
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Willie Tomg posted:I maintain that the big problem with warlock dips is not the warlock dip as-such, but that there are DMs in the world who are for some reason (the reason is social anxiety) afraid to make the hag, demon, or starspawn collective demand their due of that player and that player alone. 
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Oct 3, 2019 12:24
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Hipster Rooster posted:D&D Stuff - The Essentials Kit takes you right back to Phandalin, so if you want a break from that, it may not be the one to pick up, but it's an easy module that's good for younger people, and gives you some NPC's you can send along with the group if you must. -Curse of Strahd: Supernatural Horror, with your characters being absconded with to the dimension of Dread, by the titular Strahd. It's designed to be more Gothic Horror.. but if you read ahead, you can kinda go in there and make it an appropriate level for a youngster, and take out some of the more extreme horror elements. Along with the Gothic Horror stuff, it has some Gypsy references that are no longer PC, but you can edit those yourself.. either changing what the Vishanti are as a group, or something similar. This is also a very Sandbox Adventure, and you can easily find yourself wandering somewhere you're under or overlevel ed for. -Ghosts of Salt Marsh: A collection of adventures that take you from 1-12 in Salt Marsh, pirates, ships, sea-monsters and shark people. That kind of stuff. Has some ship combat rules in it too. -Tomb of Annihilation: You're heading to Chult, where a Death Curse has started making the dead rise up, and causing previously resurrected people problems. It's got Dinosaurs and Zombies. Stuff that pre-teens love. That's the plus side.. on the negative side, it.. goes a bit into the Dark Continent Africa stuff.. and they really needed some PoC on the writing team for that book, because it can be a bit.. YIKES. I'd definitely suggest going in, and changing some of the names of the characters/NPCs. -Out of the Abyss: You're kidnapped by Drow, and now make a mad-dash to escape, and you fight other under dark denizen. I don't really know too much about this one. I think it sounds fun, my players weren't too interested. - Storm King's Thunder: Weird stuff is happening with the Giant's order. Giants are now running around, going crazy trying to establish a new order in their own way. This is a giant, traveling sprawl across The Sword Coast. You can give or take away as much of it as you want. I'm currently running this one, and wished I didn't give out so many of the optional mini-quests, because it's taken them a while to travel, and do. Try to introduce some fast travel options early. This thing is set around set pieces.. so you'll bounce around between those. It has a lot of open ended stuff, and stuff that the DM'll need to tie together to lead the characters on a path. -Waterdeep: Dragon Heist: A past open face lord of Waterdeep has been skimming off the top for a while, and put all the money. You're on the hunt for it. There are four paths this module can take, one for each season. Most of the baddies are very powerful, so it's based on making allies, and balancing relationships with factions. Not a battle heavy module, more of a social one. -Waterdeep: The Dungeon of the Mad Mage: This is a 20+ level Mega-Dungeon that acts as a second half to Dragon Heist (but, doesn't need to be). Dude has a maze, that has monsters and treasure, and you wanna dive deep in there to kill the monsters and get the treasure. Pretty simple. The levels are HUGE. Honestly, I'd have a hard time running this one without Roll20. Despite being a Mega-Dungeon, there are little spots where you can do character stuff, that look weird and interesting. If you're better at mapping and dealing with all those maps, go for it! Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus: You know Baldur's Gate from the famous games, and you also get to go to Hell. (Well, A Hell) to deal with Demons and Devils, and drive soul-powered battle wagons and stuff. This one is new, I haven't seen too much of it yet. It sounds pretty metal. The other ones are ones I just don't know about, but I hope that helps? Suspending your character can be anything from.. Just saying he must go now, his people need him, and having him wander off. Or having him take a job, or have an obligation somewhere. It doesn't have to be anything monumental, people have lives outside of adventuring. What would make you take a break from work? Family Death? Sickness? You could weave it into part of a story line later on, or not. Let them stock up on potions. Or give them a ring with cure wounds, or healing word. While you don't want fights to be too easy, there's nothing worse than being dropped early from a lucky crit, and have to sit on your hands making death saving throws while the battle surges on without you, because no one can do anything to pick you up. If people start hording healing potions, or abusing them, you can just make them more expensive, "Oh. We here there's a death curse in chult, so we're sending all of our potions there for the time being." Tips for DMing: Watch other people DM. See what they do that you like, and what they do that you don't like. Don't hold yourself to a high standard like Matt Mercer or something. If people are having fun, you're doing a good job. I've had fun watching Adam Koebel's Roll20 presents show on YouTube. He did Tomb of Annihilation, Dragon Heist, and part of Mad Mage, and is just now starting Descent into Avernus. Also, be a fan of the players. You want them to do cool poo poo, because it makes things more fun, don't be afraid to bend the rules for a cool moment, or give bonuses to rolls because it's a cool as hell idea. Don't be afraid to make a ruling in the moment and move on, and correct it later on (if you need to), just to keep the game moving and everyone involved.
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Oct 3, 2019 13:02
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Warlock patrons should be used as a plot hook, not a club. For the same reasons you should let your paladin's oath guide them and their decisions, a warlock's patron should influence the character. It should not be a weapon to use against the character to punish then for picking, or even dipping the class. If you wouldn't contrive reasons to put the paladin in situations where they might break their oath so you can say "what did you think there was no cost to being a paladin? You made an oath!" then you shouldn't be contriving reasons for a demon to make unusual demands of the warlock so you can have Beelzebub say "go stab that guy in the face" and get really angry and summon demons against them when they don't and say "what did you think there was no cost to being a warlock? You sold your soul to a demon!" Note that all the questions about your relationship with your patron in the PHB and what they ask of you are player facing. Let your players decide what their patron wants. My current warlock is very much a lovecraftian cultist. As it turns out though great old ones are not very talkative and don't ask much of you, but it sure does influence the things I want and do as a character. Maybe your players want to have a demon constantly whispering for murder in their ear and if so that's cool but again, use it to guide roleplay not just to get back because your paladin/warlock isn't suffering enough.
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Oct 3, 2019 13:56
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Glagha posted:If you wouldn't contrive reasons to put the paladin in situations where they might break their oath so you can say "what did you think there was no cost to being a paladin? You made an oath!"
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Oct 3, 2019 14:18
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Balance your wizard by constantly loving up their spellbook, it’s INSANE that DMs are too scared to do this.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:20
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Kaysette posted:Balance your wizard by constantly loving up their spellbook, it’s INSANE that DMs are too scared to do this. "Great, you saved against Burning Hands! *rolls* And so did your spellbook! Half damage means only erasing your level three spells!"
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Oct 3, 2019 14:28
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DJ Dizzy posted:Cool. I have the idea of using "artifact weapons" in my upcoming Eberron campaign. (Think WoW artifact weapons, except no grinding) I'm torn between letting the players start out with them or letting them find them one by one. My fear with the latter approach is that it could be quite a while between the first and the last weapon, and with the former approach it makes them feel not as special. A little late to this, but as soon as I read this I had the idea (which admittedly would be more work for you, the DM) of having each character start with the weapons, but that the weapons unlock and grow in power as the players do. Yes, they're artifact weapons, but they reflect the user, and the user's individual power, or some such. You could even make like a 'skill tree' for the weapons as a whole (or each weapon individually, with differing choices based on the type of weapon, but again, more work and probably harder to balance than just giving everyone the same artifact skill tree), to give the characters choices as their weapon levels alongside them. Just a thought.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:39
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I think there was a 3.5 book that had artifact weapons that leveled with the player. Probably a cool idea but bad because it was 3.5.
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Oct 3, 2019 14:42
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So what are all the "cool" plot punishments for dipping Fighter?
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Oct 3, 2019 14:42
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Mendrian posted:So what are all the "cool" plot punishments for dipping Fighter? Not being part of the plot, obviously.
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Oct 3, 2019 15:12
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I currently have a warlock whose Patron is Gra'azt and he is very interested in them setting up a cult inside of Waterdeep. They occasionally check in or send one of their minions to check in. They are reasonably powerful and Gra'azt gave them the power to burn all their old bridges back on the elemental plane of fire, so he's just chilling and occasionally sending little messages along to keep his spirit's up and/or tell them to keep moving on. Just because you are a villain doesn't mean you have to treat your underlings like total poo poo, you recruited them for petes sake, what kind of moronic individual takes their anger out on someone they hired to do a job for them?
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Oct 3, 2019 15:25
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Kaysette posted:Balance your wizard by constantly loving up their spellbook, it’s INSANE that DMs are too scared to do this. What the gently caress is this poo poo?
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Oct 3, 2019 15:49
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The problem always starts with people starting to treat class levels as manageable in-game bricks of identity. Like they were school choices or something, all "Well I've leveled as a fighter before because dad and his dad were fighters and they're gonna get me a job at the fighter plant, I better take 12 more units of fighter."
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Oct 3, 2019 15:54
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Nutsngum posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo? That's them making a joke.
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Oct 3, 2019 15:56
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Nutsngum posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo? I know it's hard to tell with all the people that try to shut down normal conversations about this game by anyone with negative opinions but this post was sarcasm.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:01
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Balance your ranger by handing them a photocopy of the UA Revised Ranger, but telling them you don't allow UA at your table.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:04
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Yeah, it can be a cruel joke if a DM actually does that. I played in a 2e campaign way back in the day where the party was stripped of all of our gear, imprisoned and tossed into the mid levels of Undermountain. While it made for an interesting time for a decent chunk of the party, as long as you're into tearing apart the first few creatures you manage to kill so you can use their bones/claws as weapons, I did not envy our wizard, who was trying to scribe his spells on dried snakeskin with his own blood to recreate some facsimile of a spellbook. While we all tend to look back at that campaign as a whole fondly, I am certain it was frustrating for that player at the time.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:08
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I always start every campaign with everyone not having any gear. In the middle of nowhere. I feel it balances wizards when they cant use any spells for the first few sessions.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:10
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DJ Dizzy posted:I always start every campaign with everyone not having any gear. In the middle of nowhere. I feel it balances wizards when they cant use any spells for the first few sessions. Magnificent
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Oct 3, 2019 16:11
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Just make spell acquisition for wizards randomized booster packs they have to buy from shops in towns. Fireball's a super rare.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:12
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