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Kazy posted:Except that it was a lot more than "a few tweets" and you're being willfully ignorant here. Kazy posted:There's no such thing as "not taking a side", as that in and of itself is a side (that is in favor of the status quo). AbstractNapper fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:04
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AbstractNapper posted:Sorry, where did I write that there were a few tweets? quote:There were also a bunch of people who thought Alec was guilty right off the bat because of said tweets. Implying that that's all the information people were basing it off of. And I'm getting the impression that you really don't believe any of the victims (which also includes Scott himself). Being a victim of abuse isn't an excuse for abusing people. People gave him plenty of second chances, and from the sounds of it, he never really stopped abusing people, even after his previous victims thought he had changed. AbstractNapper posted:Sorry, where did I write that there were a few tweets? Yeah because we should just let people be abusers and the victims should just keep their mouths shut.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:10
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Why do people intentionally walk right into that Dril tweet like Sideshow Bob into rakes also, being not a fan of a person putting a warning out there to women in the industry to be careful around someone... means you have some kind of better and not at all hilarious solution right? because saying "there's got to be a better way" implies that the better way is just around the corner, or even exists, and that we should all sit patiently and wait for it The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:12
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Kazy posted:Implying that that's all the information people were basing it off of. And I'm getting the impression that you really don't believe any of the victims (which also includes Scott himself). Jesus Christ, no. And again no. Why do you insist on inferring blatantly wrongly what I supposedly "imply" and not stay on the things I actually write?
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Oct 4, 2019 09:17
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AbstractNapper posted:Jesus Christ, no. And again no. Why do you insist on inferring blatantly wrongly what I supposedly "imply" and not stay on the things I actually write? Because you're not really writing anything of meaning? Do you actually read what you write? Here's some advice from the forum rules page:  The 7th Guest posted:also, being not a fan of a person putting a warning out there to women in the industry to be careful around someone... means you have some kind of better and not at all hilarious solution right? because saying "there's got to be a better way" implies that the better way is just around the corner, or even exists, and that we should all sit patiently and wait for it This, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to suggest other than "victims shouldn't tell their stories" Kazy fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:24
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AbstractNapper posted:It's my position on the matter. your position is bad and you should reconsider your views, hth
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Oct 4, 2019 09:32
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Kazy posted:Because you're not really writing anything of meaning? Do you actually read what you write? You have got to be kidding right? So here's the meaning condensed: I like NITW very much still, as I do like Alec's work, the soundtrack, and the whole Aquaria game. I am not taking a position on the recent twitter posts and I hate that it's come to this in some places, where twitter can lead to such tragedies for the accused without offering no real solutions for victims or justice (and also it should not). And with the most obvious result of creating mobs and abusers from both sides. I hope that is clear and definite enough, because the rest of it is all you reading more into it. Now quote a post of yours from above with the same rules excerpt below it and think about what you are doing. quote:This, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to suggest other than "victims shouldn't tell their stories" AbstractNapper fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:32
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The Saddest Rhino posted:your position is bad and you should reconsider your views, hth Maybe. Are you willing to reconsider yours?
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Oct 4, 2019 09:34
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AbstractNapper posted:I am not taking a position on the recent twitter posts and I hate that it's come to this in some places, where twitter can lead to such tragedies for the accused without offering no real solutions for victims or justice (and also it should not). And with the most obvious result of creating mobs and abusers from both sides. Then what do you suggest the victims do? also lol at this: AbstractNapper posted:I am also not with both sides here AbstractNapper posted:I am not taking a position on the recent twitter posts and I hate that it's come to this in some places, where twitter can lead to such tragedies for the accused without offering no real solutions for victims or justice (and also it should not). And with the most obvious result of creating mobs and abusers from both sides.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:34
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I'll try to keep it calm and just stick to something that was written...AbstractNapper posted:There were also a bunch of people who thought Alec was guilty right off the bat because of said tweets. That's really a very dangerous way of judging things which in this case led to the accused person to take their own life. it is not the burden of the victim to worry about what their abuser might do as a consequence to them sharing their story. and it is not 'A led to B', that is literally the argument used by people flooding zoe's twitter with "you murdered Alec". you didn't mean that, but that's how that argument is being used on the internet. mental illness is a lot more complex than that, and we don't know what was going on in alec's head. even his sister didn't, she just did the best she could to help him all i know is he locked his account almost immediately after zoe's tweet, so his internal battle was kept offline for none of us to see The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:38
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Kazy posted:Then what do you suggest the victims do? I don't know what you are asking of me here. There has to be a better solution to handle this type of matter than via twitter. There has to be. The victims are not in the wrong. The resulting situation is all kinds of wrong.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:39
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The 7th Guest posted:I'll try to keep it calm and just stick to something that was written... I am not defending anyone who attacked Zoe. Kazy posted:also lol at this:
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Oct 4, 2019 09:41
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AbstractNapper posted:I don't know what you are asking of me here. You're pretty dead set on implying that the victims are in the wrong for using Twitter to get their stories out. AbstractNapper posted:Is it funny? I'm not sure what you mean by "mobs and abusers from both sides". You say that you're not advocating both-sidesism, but then turn around to do that exact thing. Kazy fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:44
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Kazy posted:You're pretty dead set on implying that the victims are in the wrong for using Twitter to get their stories out. Hopefully someone understood my meaning, or didn't but at least I got to write my view of the situation and that one felt right at the time. In any case I suggest you move on, I hope my next message in the thread is on topic (about the game).
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Oct 4, 2019 09:48
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AbstractNapper posted:You are pretty dead set on me implying stuff. I'm going to stop engaging you now because I don't like the circle we are in and making this discussion about me does not feel right, neither was my intention. Because that's what your words mean. You can't just say your words don't mean what they mean.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:48
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AbstractNapper posted:There has to be a better solution to handle this type of matter than via twitter. There has to be. Putting the info out into the public is the only real way to help protect others. And it doesn't matter if it's Twitter. If it's Facebook, going on live TV, saying it on mastodon, an IRC channel, making it part of an art installation, it would play out the same way regardless, because the info gets to the public's hands, and then it becomes a societal issue of how that information is handled. And as I've already said, the burden isn't on the victim to worry about bad actors using that information to mobilize other bad actors. The info being out there helps women in the industry protect themselves; that was the goal and the goal was achieved. Like I'm fine if people are sad that Alec took his own life, but it's also sad that a lot of people had their lives irreversibly changed by working with him, and I would rather focus on those that are still with us and trying to get through and beyond this. It's just my personal opinion, and call it callous if you want, that trying to re-examine how this scenario could have played out differently is a waste of time, and there are still a hell of a lot of abusers out there that not only continue to hurt others, but have even rebounded from allegations without any consequences, and people need to be able to be informed about them anyway gregg is the best character The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 09:50
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Kazy posted:Because that's what your words mean. You can't just say your words don't mean what they mean. No. I can't.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:50
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Kazy posted:You're pretty dead set on implying that the victims are in the wrong for using Twitter to get their stories out. Blaming twitter for harbouring a community of people who believe that people are guilty until proven innocent is not the same thing as "the victims shouldn't get their stories out" and i'm not sure how you're getting that from Abstracts posts. Disclaimer: I think Alec is a piece of poo poo who deserved every word said against him, before you paint me as a sympathiser too.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:51
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dogstile posted:Blaming twitter for harbouring a community of people who believe that people are guilty until proven innocent is not the same thing as "the victims shouldn't get their stories out" and i'm not sure how you're getting that from Abstracts posts. Twitter had nothing to do with it though. The only thing that led to this was the information being public, not where the information was put.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:52
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Sure but you're not arguing that. You're just telling them over and over again that they're on the abuser's side. Pretty sure all that's achieved is Abstract bailing on the conversation because they certainly don't actually think the abuser is right.
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Oct 4, 2019 10:05
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AbstractNapper posted:There has to be a better solution to handle this type of matter than via twitter. There has to be. there isn't, because we've always had a mob of people who believe in guilty-until-proven-innocent when it comes to false accusations of rape and they infest every level of the legal system that's supposed to be the better solution dogstile posted:Sure but you're not arguing that. You're just telling them over and over again that they're on the abuser's side. Pretty sure all that's achieved is Abstract bailing on the conversation because they certainly don't actually think the abuser is right. "accusers need to find a way that doesn't make me uncomfortable" is a position that silences victims and enables more abuse Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 10:09
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dogstile posted:Sure but you're not arguing that. You're just telling them over and over again that they're on the abuser's side. Pretty sure all that's achieved is Abstract bailing on the conversation because they certainly don't actually think the abuser is right. I don't think they actually mentioned if they believe any of the accusations or not. Which is sort of telling. All they did was rant about Twitter. By the way "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't really work here, because if you assume that, then you're automatically assuming the accuser is guilty of lying. edit: There's also more than just the tweets, so rallying against Twitter isn't really doing much. There's Scott's medium posts about the abuses he personally experienced, and then the people who Alec hurt even after Scott gave him the benefit of the doubt that he had improved. AbstractNapper is acting like there's only one source for the accusations, and that it's pretty much just Zoe, which it isn't by far. Not acknowledging that makes it seem like he doesn't believe them at all and is downplaying the amount of corroboration there is to these stories. Kazy fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 10:11
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Guilty until proven innocent isn't a better concept. I agree with the rest, but as i've actually seen peoples lives get destroyed by the guilty until innocent mentality when the girl in question was actually innocent, i can't agree with you. Sorry.
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Oct 4, 2019 10:24
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dogstile posted:Guilty until proven innocent isn't a better concept. Except you're talking about a type of crime that's based almost exclusively on personal testimony, is underreported in the best of circumstances, and often disbelieved for a laundry list of really lovely reasons. The burden of proof should not be on the victim, but on the accused, and the accused frequently walks away without their lives being turned inside out. See again the link I posted earlier. I don't know what anecdotal evidence you're working with, but I'm going to take a wild guess that the girl in question wasn't accused of rape, or domestic violence. The type of crime, the type of testimony and evidence required to convict, etc, changes rather drastically from one type of crime to the next, and in a great number of instances revolving around rape and other forms of sexual assault, victims are turned inside out while being forced to relive their traumas. In some cases, rape kit testing - as in, the actual, physical evidence that people claim to want so badly - has been waived, while other courts have actively banned using the word 'rape,' forcing victims to use words that give the appearance of consent. There's a lot of handwringing about the one or two mindblowingly rare instances of "false accusations" surrounding rape cases, and victims of assault are rightly pretty loving angry about how courts of law have treated them over the years. Over centuries. 'Innocent until proven guilty' has served them not at all, not even a little, and when the accused do face penalties, they're often far lighter than other types of violent crimes. In instances like these, coming forward costs the victim far more than it costs the accused, and standing on the high ground of 'innocent until proven guilty' just doesn't hold a lot of water when 'proven guilty' is so commonly viewed as a bridge too far. If people want to hold that stance, they need to start reporting the behaviour they witness. If people want to hold that stance, they need to actively work to solve the problem. If people want to hold that stance, they need to start hauling rear end to create better support networks for victims, and potential victims. Women rely on whisper networks, and more often than not, if they're warning each other about certain men, they are not wrong to do so. Want those to stop? Then help fix the drat problem, and call out behaviour like this when it's obvious, or even when it seems to be tilting in that direction. I'd bet money there were plenty of people in Alec's life that could have forced the issue-- bystanders whose reputations may have assisted in lending the accusations greater weight and latitude, and may have saved people a truly traumatizing experience. They stayed silent. So what else do you expect women (and men) to do about that? When their own words - arguably the only evidence they have - have no value in the court of 'innocent until proven guilty?' Old Boot fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 11:04
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I never claimed to have a solution. I'm not qualified to give one and I stand by that it's kind of dumb that you're expected to be happy with the current system until you can personally figure out a way to make it better. "but I'm going to take a wild guess that the girl in question wasn't accused of rape, or domestic violence." You would be wrong. I'm not going to go into details, but it was a revenge thing and the accused was literally with me two towns over at the time of the event. The person in question was innocent, but still had to move very far away. Sorry, can't change my mind on this. I'm gonna go ahead and bail now, as you won't change your mind either.
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Oct 4, 2019 11:27
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I wouldn't expect Alec Holowka's sister to be rational about his death, and in the same situation I'd probably find it impossible as well. I don't really agree with all her conclusions, but she's not an objective observer, and so I wouldn't expect to find some dispassionate and balanced response anyway.
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Oct 4, 2019 11:34
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Men: one friend of mine was falsely accused, and despite false accusals making up 2-5% of cases I must stand my ground because he had to move towns! This was a travesty! We must draw the line somewhere! Also men: look women, sure someone is sexually assaulted every 73 seconds, and the justice system is either incompetent, malicious or both depending on where you live, and society protects rapists but you're just gonna have to deal with it.
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Oct 4, 2019 11:40
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AbstractNapper posted:I don't know what you are asking of me here. Perhaps the solution is "don't be a rapist". And if people can't manage that, I don't really see why there "has to be" a happy clappy way of resolving their unwillingness to avoid raping people.
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Oct 4, 2019 12:09
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Wow the last time I saw the people who go "actually guilty until proven innocence is bad also what if rape accusation is false" was imgur years ago, I don't think I've seen it here before In the face of mounting numbers of people supporting the accusation you still come up with this disingenuous poo poo? Really?
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Oct 4, 2019 12:54
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Koalas March posted:Also men: look women, sure someone is sexually assaulted every 73 seconds, and the justice system is either incompetent, malicious or both depending on where you live, and society protects rapists but you're just gonna have to deal with it. But the women making tweets, those are the TRUE monsters. We should totally do something about them.
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Oct 4, 2019 13:08
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AbstractNapper posted:snap judgments Okay, what is your actual criteria for someone to be allowed to say "this guy abused me"
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Oct 4, 2019 13:15
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The key here is what Benson wrote in his Medium post: we don't have context other than what we got from social media. The decision to denounce Holowka wasn't something people made on a whim, it built up from years of half-whispers and emotional turmoil, years of second chances. I agree that Twitter discourse is quite often just angry catharsis, but it's also one of the few places where victims of abuse have a platform and will be heard. Is it the best way to "solve" the situation? No, I don't think it is. But the protection systems all failed these people long ago. At the end of the day, Alec wasn't "branded" as an abuser by Twitter. He WAS an abuser. There are plenty of reliable sources for that, mind you, including his own sister. Maybe he would have regenerated if he didn't get exposed, who knows, maybe he would continue a pattern of abuse. However, this wasn't a snap judgment that irrevocably tarred his image. This was just someone calling a spade a spade for lack of options to deal with being permanently scarred by abuse. Holowka saw no other option to break the circle of abuse either.
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Oct 4, 2019 13:51
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How is it snap judgment when multiple people have come out and told their story about Alec's abusive behavior?
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Oct 4, 2019 14:07
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i just wanted to grill ! like there's a time and place to ruminate on twitter being hellworld but jesus, context
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Oct 4, 2019 14:19
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The sister even admits to his abusive behavior. Borderline justifying it by his own abuse. And, while that in itself is tragically commonplace, that doesn't suddenly make him the victim when being called out on his behavior towards others. His victims didn't go out and perpetuate the abuse he heaped upon them, after all. I don't get why some people are so eager to come out swinging in defense of someone who would have very likely done this same abusive poo poo to them, had they been in close proximity. Oh look, you are literally a cog in the systemic malaise that makes these issues such a problem to tackle, and a living breathing example of the reason why people don't want to come forward.
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Oct 4, 2019 14:28
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When you think about it, the real crime isnt doing bad things, but making me feel bad for doing bad things
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Oct 5, 2019 00:54
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There's absolutely a way to tie this conversation back to the themes of NITW but I'm too distracted by how in 2 pages we got a "We should find a better way for victims to come forward, here is absolutely nothing to suggest I've put substantive thought into this" and "Yeah but I know one example of a false accusation therefore ALL accusations might be false and therefore we shouldn't do anything about it." Bea would be disappointed, yo
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Oct 5, 2019 02:05
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Back on actual topic, I've only played through one time, does Mae ever tell her parents the truth about why she dropped out?
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Oct 5, 2019 03:04
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Kazy posted:Back on actual topic, I've only played through one time, does Mae ever tell her parents the truth about why she dropped out? no, but she's preparing herself to tell them over dinner the same day the game ends
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Oct 5, 2019 03:09
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