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PST posted:Who cares? An apology has parts. This appears to be the making amends part. The part it's still missing is the admission of culpability. They're trying to create a narrative where they're Robin Hood to Wendy's Prince John instead of just saying "oh poo poo thanks for bringing this to our attention we're sorry."
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Oct 4, 2019 22:13
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It's tough to imagine that nobody at Critical Role knew how poo poo Wendy's are, to be honest. Like. Even if you don't know about the specific poo poo they've specifically pulled, they're still a megacorporation in late capitalism, they are the opposite of people anyone should be supporting or providing advertising for like... ever. CR has generally been good for the hobby, in promoting playstyles that are relatively uncommon, in promoting a much, much more diverse set of players than is common, in promoting queer inclusivism and representation in an extremely hostile environment but this is just disappointing. They should have known better, and I hope we get a public apology.
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Oct 4, 2019 22:22
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I know everyone here are super-woke socialists, but I'm guessing the CritRole folks are mostly liberals who didn't do the right research. Assume stupidity before malice and that sort of thing.
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Oct 4, 2019 22:24
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I've seen LBGTQ people accuse them of wearing marginalized people as a cloak while not actually featuring people in those groups; the same has been said about The Adventure Zone. I'm inclined to say that one is a goofy show that's a spin-off of another goofy show that was created so three brothers could keep in touch when they moved out and doesn't really feature guests or anything while the other is a collection of friends that can feature whoever. I'm probably wrong on this and don't really have the experience or knowledge to say one way or the other.
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Oct 4, 2019 22:27
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I've seen LBGTQ people accuse them of wearing marginalized people as a cloak while not actually featuring people in those groups; the same has been said about The Adventure Zone. I'm inclined to say that one is a goofy show that's a spin-off of another goofy show that was created so three brothers could keep in touch when they moved out and doesn't really feature guests or anything while the other is a collection of friends that can feature whoever. The adventure zone is 4 white guys who absolutely could be featuring more guests, and only does 'better' because they've switched systems. While I absolutely think Critical Role could/should have branched out into some other games on their channel by this point, to have better representation, they've had vastly more non-white-male cast and guests than TAZ, even if they're still just playing lovely D&D (which we criticise more than just about anywhere else on the net, obviously we're all right because we're super smart bodybuilders with kickboxing girlfriends from Canada, but it's still the most popular tabletop rpg out there). Not So Fast posted:I know everyone here are super-woke socialists, but I'm guessing the CritRole folks are mostly liberals who didn't do the right research. Assume stupidity before malice and that sort of thing. Albeit i'm a Brit but my awareness of Wendy's was a burger chain that had a social media team that were seemingly encouraged to be less corporate, more casual, which is still obviously branding and appealing to a demographic, but until this blew up, I had no idea about the broader issues. Should they have done better research, absolutely, but there were a load of people responding on the point of 'it's crazy that this huge corporation wants to sponsor an rpg game stream'. So I do think they should have done better, but this isn't a case of them being horrific people. Misguided, short-sighted, sure, but not 'and now they're the worst'. PST fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 23:00
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I've seen LBGTQ people accuse them of wearing marginalized people as a cloak while not actually featuring people in those groups; the same has been said about The Adventure Zone. I'm inclined to say that one is a goofy show that's a spin-off of another goofy show that was created so three brothers could keep in touch when they moved out and doesn't really feature guests or anything while the other is a collection of friends that can feature whoever. I honestly don't know whether this is true or not, I don't know enough about any of the (regular or guest) cast to say whether they're LGBTQ+ or not. But it's pretty undeniable that they (and I think all the G&S actual play shows) have been very active in putting forward content featuring queer characters, and have featured at least two NB players that I know of. And it's honestly kind of difficult to know anyone's sexuality unless they... you know, state it somewhere obvious, or are obviously seen in romantic relationships with people of genders other than their own. And even then there's at least one who is definitely not straight (Noelle Stephenson). It's also pretty undeniable that they've featured some pretty questionable people, too, though not all that recently, not least Chris Hardwick, albeit before that all blew up, after which they apparently killed off his character so And it's honestly difficult to say whether it's even problematic, because the accusation really smacks of the kind of purity test that a lot of people will throw at prominent representatives of movements they don't like, or prominent representatives they don't like of movements they do like. It would undoubtedly be better if their representation was more on the player side than the character side, but the representation they have provided has wildly expanded the acceptability and acceptance of queer people in gaming spaces, so... how bad can it be, really. Like, I'd love to see them get more non-straight, NB, and trans people on, but even if they don't, they're still doing good in that area. Just not in the 'knowing who to partner with' area. PST posted:The adventure zone is 4 white guys who absolutely could be featuring more guests, and only does 'better' because they've switched systems. While I absolutely think Critical Role could/should have branched out into some other games on their channel by this point, to have better representation, they've had vastly more non-white-male cast and guests than TAZ, even if they're still just playing lovely D&D (which we criticise more than just about anywhere else on the net, obviously we're all right because we're super smart bodybuilders with kickboxing girlfriends from Canada, but it's still the most popular tabletop rpg out there). Um? They've played a tonne of non-D&D games in one-shots. Expecting more than one-shots from the 'live play of a campaign' channel to be other systems seems pretty questionable at best.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:05
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PST posted:The adventure zone is 4 white guys who absolutely could be featuring more guests, and only does 'better' because they've switched systems. While I absolutely think Critical Role could/should have branched out into some other games on their channel by this point, to have better representation, they've had vastly more non-white-male cast and guests than TAZ, even if they're still just playing lovely D&D (which we criticise more than just about anywhere else on the net, obviously we're all right because we're super smart bodybuilders with kickboxing girlfriends from Canada, but it's still the most popular tabletop rpg out there). The Adventure Zone is also literally a family. They're not just a friend group or something, it's three brothers and their father, and a spinoff of another show which is just the three brothers that is literally titled "My Brother, My Brother, and Me"
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Oct 4, 2019 23:09
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thespaceinvader posted:
I'm saying that I think 'they' (critical role) could be doing more than just one-shots. At the same time the ones they've done, and their social media support dismisses the rubbish 'they do nothing' comments previously in this thread, but with the size of their channel now, they could be doing more. For TAZ, how they get labeled as good for the hobby while crit role isn't I have no idea. King of Solomon posted:The Adventure Zone is also literally a family. They're not just a friend group or something, it's three brothers and their father, and a spinoff of another show which is just the three brothers that is literally titled "My Brother, My Brother, and Me" And crit role is a group of friends who started playing together and then got asked to turn it into a stream, but they still get the 'why have they not gotten rid of some of them and added other people'. And they have had way, way more minority guests than TAZ. There's some bullshit going on when one group of gamers who have become popular get criticised for representation, when another less diverse group of gamers are lauded for doing more for the hobby just because they switched to a different system to play. PST fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 23:10
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sexpig by night posted:I really don't think this is their big cash cow so I kinda don't care about them not giving up their wages. Oh sure. Just, I run into repeated and surprising confusion from people about what exactly is meant by "profits" vs. "earnings" vs. "income" etc. etc. Also, I didn't know Wendy's was bad till this thread. And, Hasbro is also a giant soulless corporation. If you're already playing D&D for money, deciding to play burger-chain's game for money isn't a big leap. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 23:14
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PST posted:And crit role is a group of friends who started playing together and then got asked to turn it into a stream, but they still get the 'why have they not gotten rid of some of them and added other people'. And they have had way, way more minority guests than TAZ.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:21
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PST posted:And crit role is a group of friends who started playing together and then got asked to turn it into a stream, but they still get the 'why have they not gotten rid of some of them and added other people'. And they have had way, way more minority guests than TAZ. You're conflating two separate issues, and not giving any leeway to the group that is literally a family playing games together. TAZ could be better about representation, absolutely, and on that front I don't have a real beef with Critical Role; they have minority guests on all the time, and that is undeniably a good thing. Less good is that Critical Role is a D&D group that very rarely plays something that isn't D&D. They're also basically paid by WotC to play D&D through their D&D Beyond sponsorship, which makes that even worse. At least TAZ experimented with other games and settled on a non-D&D game when season 2 came around.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:25
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Also those two podcasts are basically the only reason 5th edition is as big as it is now.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:28
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PST posted:I'm saying that I think 'they' (critical role) could be doing more than just one-shots. At the same time the ones they've done, and their social media support dismisses the rubbish 'they do nothing' comments previously in this thread, but with the size of their channel now, they could be doing more. I swing wildly in both directions on this. On the one hand, it feels super purity test-y, on the other, yes, they probably could, but at the same time, I don't doubt that keeping CR running is a full time job for probably 20 or so people, even discounting the animated series stuff. They've got a merch store, half a dozen other shows (in which they promote a whole range of stuff, including other game systems), ludicrous amounts of production design, editing, set design, visual effects stuff, etc etc, etc. I'd be pretty surprised if they coudl magically fit in a whole nother campaign in a whole nother system. Not to mention that Geek and Sundry, the company that still owns and runs CR... regularly does exactly that. They've just completed the first season of a Pathfinder 2e game (featuring a NB player, no less), they have an ongoing Vampire series with at the very least queer characters, and they have the Shield of Tomorrow/TBDRPG/Callisto 6 group, who are wide-rangingly diverse. So. What do you actually want from them? Specifically. Because 'they could do more' isn't exactly a bar anyone can ever clear.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:28
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Well, one good thing that came out of this is that I heard all the terrible poo poo Wendy's is doing.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:29
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I think it's difficult to judge because RPG Podcasts are usually just a group of friends getting together to produce their normal game. It's not a TV show where they can pick actors out and be representative. Critical Role is the only one that I think has gotten big enough that it could be more representative and bring in newer people at some point.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:29
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I've seen LBGTQ people accuse them of wearing marginalized people as a cloak while not actually featuring people in those groups; the same has been said about The Adventure Zone. I'm inclined to say that one is a goofy show that's a spin-off of another goofy show that was created so three brothers could keep in touch when they moved out and doesn't really feature guests or anything while the other is a collection of friends that can feature whoever. I'm pretty sure Taliesin is openly Bi, and he's obviously been in the group since day 1. That said, I don't know if any of their guests have been LGBTQ. But then, I don't know that they *haven't*, because I honestly don't know much about a lot of their guests, and it's not the sort of thing that is going to come up when they're playing D&D and mostly focusing on being ridiculous. That's a really hard line to walk for them. Probably the best thing they could do would be to have some of them on "Between the Sheets", the longform interview show they have- and looking at their guests, they've had Noelle Stevenson and Amanda Palmer on, 2 out of the 10 guests who aren't CR members (and one of those was Sam's wife). I'm really glad to see CR be so responsive to fan feedback, even when they probably could have ignored it given that a lot of people saw nothing wrong, and most of the folks criticizing were being pretty measured about it. Edit: thespaceinvader posted:
As a point of clarity, Critical Role split off from Geek and Sundry this year. It was friendly as far as I'm aware, but they're 100% their own thing now. Rogue 7 fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 23:31
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Not So Fast posted:I think it's difficult to judge because RPG Podcasts are usually just a group of friends getting together to produce their normal game. It's not a TV show where they can pick actors out and be representative.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:34
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King of Solomon posted:They're also basically paid by WotC to play D&D through their D&D Beyond sponsorship Are you sure about that?
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Oct 4, 2019 23:37
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Toshimo posted:Are you sure about that? I don't know the exact details of the sponsorship, but they open every show by saying they're sponsored by D&D Beyond and play an animated advertisement for it, so I mean, I guess? Maybe?
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Oct 4, 2019 23:38
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King of Solomon posted:I don't know the exact details of the sponsorship, but they open every show by saying they're sponsored by D&D Beyond and play an animated advertisement for it, so I mean, I guess? Maybe? But, Amazon owns D&DB, not WotC?
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Oct 4, 2019 23:39
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Toshimo posted:But, Amazon owns D&DB, not WotC? Amazon actually owns it? Like, it isn't just hosted in AWS or something, Amazon actually went to WotC to license the D&D name to make the product?
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Oct 4, 2019 23:40
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King of Solomon posted:Amazon actually owns it? Like, it isn't just hosted in AWS or something, Amazon actually went to WotC to license the D&D name to make the product? Ok, I was a little off, but D&D Beyond was owned by Curse and got bought out by Wikia, so now they are Wikia. (I thought Wikia was owned by Amazon, but they are not.) But, yes, D&D Beyond just licences the brand from WotC.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:44
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Toshimo posted:Ok, I was a little off, but D&D Beyond was owned by Curse and got bought out by Wikia, so now they are Wikia. (I thought Wikia was owned by Amazon, but they are not.) But, yes, D&D Beyond just licences the brand from WotC. Okay, fair, I didn't know that. I should have known that WotC would never put in the resources to create something like D&D Beyond, that was silly of me.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:45
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King of Solomon posted:Amazon actually owns it? Like, it isn't just hosted in AWS or something, Amazon actually went to WotC to license the D&D name to make the product? Not any more. D&D Beyond is a Curse property; Curse was bought by Twitch in 2016. In 2018, Twitch spun off most properties and sold them to Fandom.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:46
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Rogue 7 posted:
Huh, I thought that the main show was still on G&S, but nope, hasn't been for 28 episodes. Wow. Nessus posted:How do they get new people on the show? Do they hold auditions? I literally do not know
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Oct 4, 2019 23:46
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Thanlis posted:Not any more. D&D Beyond is a Curse property; Curse was bought by Twitch in 2016. In 2018, Twitch spun off most properties and sold them to Fandom. Thanks, now I remember why I thought it was Amazon.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:47
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Let's get back to the real fun argument here where one side goes "this is dumb" and the other side goes "oh sure it's dumb but at least it's not malicious!!!"
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Oct 4, 2019 23:48
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King of Solomon posted:Amazon actually owns it? Like, it isn't just hosted in AWS or something, Amazon actually went to WotC to license the D&D name to make the product? A quick google for "dndbeyond" has Google telling me that they're owned by Curse, which further googling tells me Twitch sold to Fandom back in 2018. Edit: Beaten like *insert sports team here*
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Oct 4, 2019 23:49
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Drivethrurpg have now removed the 'totally not zac' bullshit by Raggi https://twitter.com/MeredithGerber/status/1180226770278260737
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Oct 5, 2019 00:20
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Sure, now that the sales numbers have started to drop.
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Oct 5, 2019 00:30
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PST posted:Drivethrurpg have now removed the 'totally not zac' bullshit by Raggi Once again, they do the obviously right thing only after a sufficient amount of public outcry.
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Oct 5, 2019 00:31
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https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/status/1180244594073755648 mods please change my name to Tabletop's Censorious Maoist, tia
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Oct 5, 2019 00:36
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Also from Tarnowski: https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/status/1180264558776258561
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Oct 5, 2019 00:45
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Traditional Games › TG As An Industry: The Hobby's Censorious Maoists
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Oct 5, 2019 00:59
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Oh I see Pundit finally picked up on the need to be subtle about his right-wing rhetoric and is trying to avoid clearly stating who he thinks are the "bad actors" in tabletop gaming
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Oct 5, 2019 01:05
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president sanders will finally make 5e illegal
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Oct 5, 2019 01:11
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Dawgstar posted:Also from Tarnowski:
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Oct 5, 2019 01:31
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It's kind of fun to have one of the bad actors involved in colluding over D&D is decrying bad actors colluding over D&D.
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Oct 5, 2019 01:54
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If we're rating bad actors and their influence on D&D as a property Urbanski is basically a bad guy in a Neil Breen movie. That said if I were given unlimited access to Mearls the first thing I'd want to know is what his pet consultants actually contributed that's actually in the books.
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Oct 5, 2019 02:01
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theironjef posted:If we're rating bad actors and their influence on D&D as a property Urbanski is basically a bad guy in a Neil Breen movie. I admit I'm perversely curious to know exactly what went down with him and Monte Cook given the abrupt switch from "Monte Cook is here to help with 5e!" to "Monte Cook has to return to his home planet" around the time that Swami Nisarg was pitching one of his usual tantrums. There's probably a mildly fascinating tell-all about the development of D&D 5E that I would love to see but I figure it's all just gonna get memory holed.
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Oct 5, 2019 02:04
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