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Sleeveless also thinks PT should be allowed to just vanish because Kojima was bad at business.
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Oct 5, 2019 05:07
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I remember being 9 and beating LA for the first time and just feeling terribly sad at having been railroaded into destroying a chill little world for selfish reasons. The final boss + the area it's situated in were a bit unnerving but not really scary or anything tbh
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Oct 5, 2019 05:17
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If anything the reward scene for not dying establishes that you’re doing the right thing with the wind fish.
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Oct 5, 2019 05:28
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Keep updating those spreadsheets and having a normal one, gamers.The Big Word posted:I remember being 9 and beating LA for the first time and just feeling terribly sad at having been railroaded into destroying a chill little world for selfish reasons. The final boss + the area it's situated in were a bit unnerving but not really scary or anything tbh The world is a dream and the wind fish is going to wake up eventually no matter what even if you discount the idea that the forces guiding you to wake it up represent its will. I'm way more weirded out by, say, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance where Ivalice is shown to be a real extant fantasy world to the point where it exists across multiple games outside of that one yet unmaking it is uncritically portrayed as an objective good.
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Oct 5, 2019 05:32
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Sleeveless posted:Keep updating those spreadsheets and having a normal one, gamers. time to rise up gamers like link in the cute game, be the wind fish of your own life
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Oct 5, 2019 05:39
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Sleeveless posted:The world is a dream and the wind fish is going to wake up eventually no matter what even if you discount the idea that the forces guiding you to wake it up represent its will. I'm way more weirded out by, say, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance where Ivalice is shown to be a real extant fantasy world to the point where it exists across multiple games outside of that one yet unmaking it is uncritically portrayed as an objective good. it was a fake storybook ivalice that just happened to have similarities to the "real" ivalice featured in the other games marche did nothing wrong
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Oct 5, 2019 05:56
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Sleeveless posted:I'm way more weirded out by, say, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance where Ivalice is shown to be a real extant fantasy world to the point where it exists across multiple games outside of that one yet unmaking it is uncritically portrayed as an objective good. I'm pretty sure a good portion of this is tied to the Japanese perspective that being a child or a teen is when you get to have fun. As you grow up you're supposed to put all your hopes and dreams in a box, and toss that box into a fire, because it's time to work your rear end to death. The "fantasy" of Ivalice is presented as bad because it's not contributing to society, which demands you sit your rear end back down and be a salaryman. Video games have been dealing with this dichotomy since their inception, and Japanese ones especially tend to present the "correct" answer as waking up and growing up. It's a bit different from an American/Western perspective, where you work for the weekends or the like. I think it's something a lot of creators struggle with, and seeing how they portray their dream worlds as a burden instead of a reward or a vacation is a little telling about their perspective, and how they're trying to deal with things.
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Oct 5, 2019 05:58
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Sleeveless posted:Keep updating those spreadsheets and having a normal one, gamers.
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Oct 5, 2019 06:05
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Yeah, remember that Mewt is explicitly stated to play Final Fantasy games (though its been a long time since I played FFTA, my memory is a little fuzzy about specifics). It's a fantasy world based on Ivalice and filtered through Mewt's desire to escape from the real world and make things "better." Edit: I checked to make sure there weren't replies, there weren't, edited my post a little and there's like, five replies when I hit post.
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Oct 5, 2019 06:05
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dmboogie posted:it was a fake storybook ivalice that just happened to have similarities to the "real" ivalice featured in the other games They could have at least done more to point out that the "fake" world wasn't actually better for everyone, instead of just leaning on it being fake as a reason. Like, there's the bullies showing up as (I wanna say) zombies, but that's only referenced in their names and easy to miss. Meanwhile, Ritz has friends, Mewt's dad isn't an alcoholic anymore, and his brother can walk again. "Fake" or not, that's a pretty good deal if you miss that tiny detail. Also, if you put the Oracle games after Link's Awakening on the timeline, then at least waking the Wind Fish worked out for the best in the long term, since if he had stayed in the dream everyone would have been hosed when those other games happened?
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Oct 5, 2019 06:07
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None of the ivalicians seemed to care what New Kid was doing, the entire conflict of the story was between the grossly unpopular New Kid and his small handful of friends. Also lol if you didn't name Marche 'New Kid' and think you were being clever.
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Oct 5, 2019 06:09
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Captain France posted:They could have at least done more to point out that the "fake" world wasn't actually better for everyone, instead of just leaning on it being fake as a reason. Like, there's the bullies showing up as (I wanna say) zombies, but that's only referenced in their names and easy to miss. Meanwhile, Ritz has friends, Mewt's dad isn't an alcoholic anymore, and his brother can walk again. "Fake" or not, that's a pretty good deal if you miss that tiny detail. Marche is absolutely the villain of Tactics Advance. And as for Link's Awakening on the timeline, it's actually the one game on the timeline that changes where it is; it's definitely the same Link as in Link to the Past and the Oracle games, but the Hyrule Historia puts it after all those other games, while the later-published Zelda Encyclopedia puts it after LttP but before the Oracle games. But it should be noted that the Zelda Encyclopedia is full of blatant factual inaccuracies and also claims literally the entirety of Termina as an illusion that disappeared shortly after the events of Majora's Mask (yes, really), so I vote that we discount that book because it's lovely.
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Oct 5, 2019 06:57
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Cleretic posted:Marche is absolutely the villain of Tactics Advance. it's been so long i cant really say how well marche's case is supported in the text but like, if you think about it for even five seconds everyone in that town's gotta have connections to people outside of it, right; the timeline where your best friend gets yoinked away to Ivalice to be a low-ranking guild grunt forever ain't exactly a happy one also letting some magical bullshit impersonate your dead mother probably isn't a healthy coping mechanism
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Oct 5, 2019 07:23
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dmboogie posted:also letting some magical bullshit impersonate your dead mother probably isn't a healthy coping mechanism as a Gamer, I reflexively mistrust anyone who believes it's unhealthy to retreat into juvenile fantasy worlds where I'm king
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Oct 5, 2019 07:43
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FFTA2 raises yet more questions since Ezel and Montblanc are both kicking around, plus Mewt right at the end.
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Oct 5, 2019 07:49
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its just never really clear whether or not the storybook beings are sentient or weird automatons. there is text that implies they're the former. escapism needs to end sometime is not a bad message but its not very well executed
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Oct 5, 2019 07:59
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The FFTA world of Ivalice is completely subject to Mewt's whims, would you really want to live in a world where that garbage boy has control over the laws ( ) that govern the very nature of the world?Put me back in the wheelchair, please.
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Oct 5, 2019 08:45
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This kid not only willed his dead mom back into existence, but also created a "cool" version of himself, with his name... but spelled backwards.
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Oct 5, 2019 08:46
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Cleretic posted:Marche is absolutely the villain of Tactics Advance. In this particular case, I like LA to come first because I'm pretty sure it's implied Link left on an adventure so he would be more experienced for the next one, so I want there to BE a next one. Also this way he definitely didn't drown. And wait what there's semi-canon material that agrees with the creepy rear end "Termina is a hallucination Link has before becoming a Stalfos" theory? I mean I've always kinda liked that one, but it's edgy as gently caress.
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Oct 5, 2019 08:50
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Captain France posted:In this particular case, I like LA to come first because I'm pretty sure it's implied Link left on an adventure so he would be more experienced for the next one, so I want there to BE a next one. quote:How you ask? Well, when Skull Kid acquires the evil mask from the Salesman, it preys on his spirit and loneliness. With its power, Skull Kid dreams up a fantasy world based off of his experiences in the real world of Hyrule and makes it a reality. Albeit a temporary reality, more like a parallel dimension that only lasts as long as Majora’s power does. So when Link defeats Majora and purifies the mask, its power fades, and after Skull Kid and Link spend one last day there, so too does the land of Termina.
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Oct 5, 2019 08:58
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Wow, that's just, like, the worst of both worlds, yeah?
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Oct 5, 2019 09:44
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But Skull Kid was friends with the giants. Did he make himself some fake friends with... actually, that's even more depressing.
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Oct 5, 2019 11:17
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The Four Giants is one of the big details that fly in the face of that whole concept, yeah. Initially it makes sense that if everything else in Termina is part of this big fake world made by Skull Kid and Majora's Mask, then the Four Giants are too; you only actually hear about their history with the Skull Kid either from them or from the grandmother's storybook. So if it's all fake and made by Skull Kid in a Majora-induced frenzy, that tracks; the past of all of Termina is fake, and so Skull Kid's history with the Four Giants is, too. ...except for the part where they have an exchange just before the credits. Skull Kid acts like they are, in fact, real friends with a history even though he now has absolutely no reason to keep up any illusions, and nothing to puppet him. Tatl and Tael, too, don't square for it; Tatl actually tells you, from her perspective, the story of meeting Skull Kid in Termina and their past until they mugged the Happy Mask Salesman and stole Majora's Mask. That's a story that makes no sense from any angle if Termina is a complete fabrication. You've also got the Deku Butler's son; it's not clear at exactly what point in the intro that Link crosses from Hyrule to Termina, but if it's the weird twisty corridor that drops him off in the Clock Tower--which seems reasonable--then the butler's son crossed over outside of Termina, as does the butler himself in the credits. If the entirety of Termina is a fantasy world, then while something crossing over from it to the real world may not in fact be impossible, it should definitely be a bigger deal than the game suggests with that stuff. It should be noted that we're not actually sure how canon that explanation is--it only cropped up in the Zelda Encyclopedia, having never been mentioned to anyone's knowledge before then (not even in the Hyrule Historia, which probably would've given how it cleared up some long-standing story mysteries regarding stuff in other games). The Encyclopedia's also riddled with errors, some of them really egregious, suggesting that it probably wasn't written with the greatest of care and attention. So it's possible that it was some kind of fabrication or misunderstanding that made it into the book. The thing is, if you pitched me the idea as a totally new story and setting, that sounds like a great concept: someone gets hold of an ancient evil artifact and uses it to create a hideous frankenland cobbled together out of their own memories, possibly the memories of the evil artifact and the civilization that sealed it away, and the original state of region that they transformed. That sounds like a pretty neat idea, and I'd even believe that the resulting world would look like Termina; blatantly unrealistically condensed, weirdly disparate history, societies both past and present that by all logic should cross over more than they do, several insanely big crises happening simultaneously yet never colliding... But that story can't and shouldn't be Majora's Mask. Majora's a game about exploring the world and interacting with everyone in it, if the entire setting is fictional even in-universe then you've destroyed the game.
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Oct 5, 2019 12:19
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Termina is a real place, Ivalice continued without Marche there, and Ted Kennedy killed that girl. 
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Oct 5, 2019 14:30
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Do the Hylians also look up at the screaming moon
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Oct 5, 2019 14:40
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quote:he thing is, if you pitched me the idea as a totally new story and setting, that sounds like a great concept: someone gets hold of an ancient evil artifact and uses it to create a hideous frankenland cobbled together out of their own memories, possibly the memories of the evil artifact and the civilization that sealed it away, and the original state of region that they transformed. That sounds like a pretty neat idea, . As part of a running series, tho, it sounds like the kind of creatively bankrupt self-remixing that kingdom hearts does every time.
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Oct 5, 2019 18:01
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Nah its fine, remember how Picard got his brain sucked into an alien probe and spent a lifetime watching the planet die with his fake family? Me neither but he could play the flute after that
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Oct 5, 2019 18:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Mf2mp6fms
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Oct 5, 2019 19:18
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Tunicate posted:As part of a running series, tho, it sounds like the kind of creatively bankrupt self-remixing that kingdom hearts does every time. If anything I'd prefer it for a running series. That way, the remixing has more intrigue due to being able to see what you know and are used to get warped.
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Oct 5, 2019 20:09
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Majora's Mask is such a good game because Eiji Auonuma and his team started with massive time and budget restrictions that made them dependent on reusing models--and then they leaned in on that to make it central to the story they were trying to tell. People have a lot of "it was all a dream" or other fake world theories about Majora's Mask because the game builds up a sense of unreality and dream logic, because obviously Cremia and Romani are just Malon, plus the impending sense of doom hanging over it all. But I think the best way to approach that is to think of Termina not as "fake" but "staged." It's a game about masks, after all: it's very theatrical. It's a game where you literally take on the "roles" of childhood, adulthood, fatherhood, and death (you go to the valley of the shadow to fight the Grim Reaper), to tell a story about growing up and helping people with the limited time you have. Link's not -in reality- a new father, but he can dress up as one, pretend to be one, and be treated by society as one. In that sense, Termina is not -in reality- a place, it's just Hyrule dressed up as a stage to facilitate that experience. It's sort of like an Aesop, in that way, "This story isn't real, it's obviously fiction, which makes it more important to pay attention to the lesson it has." It's a really remarkable game, considering it was made by one of the biggest studios, using their most notable IP, following a monster hit, and barely giving it the time or budget any other game would've gotten.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:24
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Precambrian posted:Majora's Mask is such a good game because Eiji Auonuma and his team started with massive time and budget restrictions that made them dependent on reusing models--and then they leaned in on that to make it central to the story they were trying to tell. People have a lot of "it was all a dream" or other fake world theories about Majora's Mask because the game builds up a sense of unreality and dream logic, because obviously Cremia and Romani are just Malon, plus the impending sense of doom hanging over it all. But I think the best way to approach that is to think of Termina not as "fake" but "staged." It's a game about masks, after all: it's very theatrical. I like this a lot.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:38
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extra hosed when you realize Malon and Talon are just new takes on Marin and Tarin A dream inspired a real person who then inspired a 'theater' dual version of herself
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Oct 5, 2019 22:41
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A Link to the Past is the best Zelda game I will not be taking questions at this time
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Oct 5, 2019 23:03
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All of this is just making me realize I need to play all the Zelda games and lean heavily into how they all intersect, because I’m fascinated by the history!
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Oct 5, 2019 23:43
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Randaconda posted:A Link to the Past is the best Zelda game You misspelled "Link's Awakening" (this is not a question)
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Oct 5, 2019 23:57
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HenryEx posted:You misspelled "Link's Awakening" (this is not a question) You both got "Majora's Mask" wrong
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Oct 6, 2019 00:10
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All Zeldas are good, my friends. Even the DS ones.
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Oct 6, 2019 00:20
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I am a grump who thinks any Zelda timeline belongs in the trash because it adds little to nothing to the games and just gives nerds something to fruitlessly argue about. 
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Oct 6, 2019 00:25
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I just stick with my headcanons I make up as I play or not play Zeldas Far as I care, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the mortal incarnations of the three goddesses doomed to perpetually reincarnate and cause divine havoc hurting each other with each generation like some upbeat tragedy Zelda 3 a best if only because Link gets his one use of the Triforce to enact a wish
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Oct 6, 2019 00:29
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John Murdoch posted:I am a grump who thinks any Zelda timeline belongs in the trash because it adds little to nothing to the games and just gives nerds something to fruitlessly argue about. I'm on the same page. Theorizing can be fun, but there's so much time between each game supposedly, that aside from ones that are explicitly prequels or sequels to others, it...mostly doesn't matter.
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Oct 6, 2019 00:30
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