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Oh you can bet your rear end if Dracula is real and alive he's some kind of "social media consultant". That or a hedge fund manager. Like in the 1958 film with Peter Cushing Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 6, 2019 |
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Oct 6, 2019 17:01
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Pochoclo posted:Pretty drat sure some Sumerian satirist played a song on a gishgudi comparing a rich merchant to the contemporary equivalent of a vampire in their folklore back in 2000 BC, it's not a far-fetched allegory by any means
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Oct 6, 2019 17:02
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Most variations of the vampire myth are very antisemitic btw
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Oct 6, 2019 17:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Is everyone forgetting this guy, the vicious nobleman who's the actual inspiration for most of the Western vampire canon up to and including two of the more common names? Visiting my parents I saw an amazingly dumb ghost hunting programme where they fannied about the dungeons of Vlad's old castle while insisting that "wow, the energy in here is so oppressive, I'm so tired" in the middle of the loving night, the dopes. Very entertaining. moostaffa posted:Most variations of the vampire myth are very antisemitic btw That'll be why it's Jeremy Corbyn's favourite myth then.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Is everyone forgetting this guy, the vicious nobleman who's the actual inspiration for most of the Western vampire canon up to and including two of the more common names? This one's a bit complicated because ol' Vlad's reputation was quite different before Bram Stoker had a go at him in the 1890s. In Romania, he's a national hero. It's like if someone turned Edward I into a supernatural monster - he was an rear end in a top hat warlord who is greatly hated in certain countries, but he wasn't a universal byword for horror.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:05
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moostaffa posted:Most variations of the vampire myth are very antisemitic btw In Europe, yeah. Dracula in particular has a lot of baggage. Chinese hopping vampires? Not so much.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:07
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Is everyone forgetting this guy, the vicious nobleman who's the actual inspiration for most of the Western vampire canon up to and including two of the more common names? The vampire stuff only really got applied to Vlad post Dracula. Prior to that it was mostly just about his cruelty. Dracula's the most famous aristocrat vampire, but he's certainly not the first - before that even, there's Carmilla, Varney, and Lord Ruthven. Stoker drew upon Vlad, but before the awesome Dracula name was apparently going to call him "Count Wampyr" - not very imaginiative.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:08
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Pochoclo posted:I have to say festivals like Glastonbury just seem like disgustingly crowded shitholes that would induce a dozen panic attacks on me because of all the crowds before it even started I have terrible social anxiety, but I found Glastonbury to be really relaxing and freeing. Last time I was there Amy Winehouse was playing, so it's been a few years, but there's a great atmosphere of community, comradeship, and acceptance. It felt like how society should be, open and embracing, none of this isolated individualism bullshit
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Oct 6, 2019 17:09
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Guavanaut posted:The idea of the vampire, as a risen corpse that must consume the blood of the living in order to survive, seems nonexistent in Western Europe before Austria-Hungary brought it back from South-Eastern Europe. There's plenty of things like ghosts and succubi and banshees and shapeshifters and that in all cultures, but that particular thing seems to have come out of "as we good Christians must drink the blood of Christ for eternal life, the unholy must drink the blood of innocents for eternal life, also every church but mine is terrible and the people that go there are pagans." I think there's elements of that in the norse draugr myth too. Though they also have more op bullshit powers that were nerfed with the codification of the modern vampire myth.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:10
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OwlFancier posted:Does that book not draw on a pre existing myth? Would genuinely be surprised if there wasn't at least one indigenous example of it given, y'know, how well it works. Proliferation leading it to eclipse other readings I'd expect sure, but invented whole cloth is surprising. goddamnedtwisto posted:Is everyone forgetting this guy, the vicious nobleman who's the actual inspiration for most of the Western vampire canon up to and including two of the more common names?
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Oct 6, 2019 17:13
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Modern vampires alas cannot swim through stone like carp.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:15
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One of the earliest monsters in folklore was the Arabic ghul, that was a shapeshifting monster that lived in the desert and would entice men off their paths before eating them. A french translation of 1001 nights changed the ghoul to be more of the undead monster we know now, but the idea of a shapeshifting monster that ate people is as old as Mesopotamia. There's a few noteable aristocrats in history that drank blood or were cannibals - Elizabeth Bathory was a Hungarian noblewoman who bathed in a bath of children's blood (supposedly) - there was also Gilles de Rais, a companion of Joan of Arc who also raped, tortured and killed dozens of children, as well as eating their organs.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:16
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Mental Note: Need to watch Lifeforce again.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:18
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Actually, yeah, looking into it, antisemitic blood libel does seem to be the oldest major conflation of wealth and vampirism (a literary example would be Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, whose lust for coin is transformed into a lust for blood). It dates all the way back to the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, if not further. The Vampyre seems to be the first time it was repackaged into a more sanitary and less racist form.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:18
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Darth Walrus posted:Actually, yeah, looking into it, antisemitic blood libel does seem to be the oldest major conflation of wealth and vampirism (a literary example would be Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, whose lust for coin is transformed into a lust for blood). It dates all the way back to the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, if not further. The Vampyre seems to be the first time it was repackaged into a more sanitary and less racist form. Again, excluding Dracula, because sheeeesh.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:20
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I guess it does make sense that mythical creatures in antiquity were just barely disguised forms of bigotry. I wonder what myths future generations will read from our current history. The Abominable Job-Stealing Immigrant? The Horrible Muslim? The Triggered Climate Change Fighter Millennial That Should Go Back To School?
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Oct 6, 2019 17:23
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The Job Creator.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:25
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I should clarify that as an immigrant from the misty unknowable Pampas I cannot cross water and therefore was transported here in a stone coffin adorned with heathen runes to guard me, also I can transform into a swarm of hamsters at will.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:31
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happyhippy posted:Mental Note: Need to watch Lifeforce again. Saw it in the theatre when it came out 
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Oct 6, 2019 17:34
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Pochoclo posted:I guess it does make sense that mythical creatures in antiquity were just barely disguised forms of bigotry. I wonder what myths future generations will read from our current history. The Abominable Job-Stealing Immigrant? The Horrible Muslim? The Triggered Climate Change Fighter Millennial That Should Go Back To School? A remarkable number of European mythological monsters seem to be derived from Jewish people - dwarves and goblins are as well. We do actually have a racist fictional monster that emerged quite recently, though - orcs as stand-ins for black people date back to the 1970s, although they also draw on a fair amount of inspiration from interbellum fantasy.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:35
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Surely the South American vampire has to be transported inside a giant empanada.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:35
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Darth Walrus posted:A remarkable number of European mythological monsters seem to be derived from Jewish people - dwarves and goblins are as well. We do actually have a racist fictional monster that emerged quite recently, though - orcs as stand-ins for black people date back to the 1970s, although they also draw on a fair amount of inspiration from interbellum fantasy. Aren't dwarves a Norse mythological race?
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Oct 6, 2019 17:36
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Darth Walrus posted:Actually, yeah, looking into it, antisemitic blood libel does seem to be the oldest major conflation of wealth and vampirism (a literary example would be Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, whose lust for coin is transformed into a lust for blood). It dates all the way back to the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, if not further. The Vampyre seems to be the first time it was repackaged into a more sanitary and less racist form. Kosher and Halal slaughter prescribing the draining of all blood, the Holy Communion involving drinking the blood of Christ, it's all there so that if South-Eastern European culture (which had a lot of folkloric baggage about burying the dead and also multiple religions in the same place) wants to create an Other it's fairly easy to go "Jews drain the animal of blood" "I wonder what they do with the blood" "I bet they drink it" "I bet they drink babies blood" "I bet everyone who goes to any church that isn't ours buries their dead so wrong that the corpses come back and drink the blood of virgins." And then you've got a recognizable vampire. OwlFancier posted:The Job Creator.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:41
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That Italian Guy posted:Aren't dwarves a Norse mythological race? Yeah, but that doesn't rule out them having some connection to Jews and other Middle Easterners from the beginning. As a seafaring culture, the Vikings were big traders, and Middle Eastern merchants had a long reach even in the first millennium.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:42
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Darth Walrus posted:A remarkable number of European mythological monsters seem to be derived from Jewish people - dwarves and goblins are as well. We have Tolkien to thank for the association between dwarves and Jewish people, don't we? I don't know that they were originally the target, there not being much of a Jewish presence in Scandinavia historically. I heard that the myth comes from a different racism - that they were based on Finns.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:47
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big scary monsters posted:We have Tolkien to thank for the association between dwarves and Jewish people, don't we? I don't know that they were originally the target, there not being much of a Jewish presence in Scandinavia historically. I heard that the myth comes from a different racism - that they were based on Finns. Dwarves are too cool to be finns
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Oct 6, 2019 17:50
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Dwarfs probably originated as nothing more than an explanation for why some people have dwarfism or other genetic differences, being half dwarf, or a dwarf causing it in utero, in the same way that various fairies likely arose as an explanation for why some kids had autism. If you then go on to say that some race or another are in league with said fairies (Irish Travellers being a common one), then that's just common or garden racism with the factors of the day, like claiming that Jews work with the nebulous forces of the world economy because being racist is easier than understanding things, but that doesn't mean that the fairies themselves were created for racial reasons.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:51
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Darth Walrus posted:A remarkable number of European mythological monsters seem to be derived from Jewish people - dwarves and goblins are as well. We do actually have a racist fictional monster that emerged quite recently, though - orcs as stand-ins for black people date back to the 1970s, although they also draw on a fair amount of inspiration from interbellum fantasy. Aren't Tolkien Orcs supposed to be a stand in for East Asians? That's 1940s iirc
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Oct 6, 2019 17:54
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Guavanaut posted:Dwarfs probably originated as nothing more than an explanation for why some people have dwarfism or other genetic differences, being half dwarf, or a dwarf causing it in utero, in the same way that various fairies likely arose as an explanation for why some kids had autism. The Victorians having both a fairy craze and a deep love of scientific racism makes me wonder how many dusty, leather-bound tomes containing serious treatises on fae eugenics are hanging out in libraries somewhere in England.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:59
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Miftan posted:Aren't Tolkien Orcs supposed to be a stand in for East Asians? That's 1940s iirc 1950s. And there's no need for Tolkien to use orcs as a standin for Asians because he was quite happy to put the Easterlings into LOTR.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:04
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Orcs are Germans.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:04
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big scary monsters posted:The Victorians having both a fairy craze and a deep love of scientific racism makes me wonder how many dusty, leather-bound tomes containing serious treatises on fae eugenics are hanging out in libraries somewhere in England. It seems more likely that it was "your baby is deformed because of mischievous spirits" "I bet the Gypsies called them here" racism than "lets invent this folklore so that we can talk poo poo about the Gypsies in metaphor" because they were all doing that openly anyway. But then by synthesis it could become a stand-in/metaphor I guess, like how freep called Black criminals 'Amish' for so long that it became a racist trope. Jedit posted:1950s. And there's no need for Tolkien to use orcs as a standin for Asians because he was quite happy to put the Easterlings into LOTR.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:06
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The dragon in the Hobbit is actually Tolkiens take on George Soros
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Oct 6, 2019 18:07
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Norse dwarves weren't short though, right? (best part of Infinity War was Peter Dinklage going completely un-remarked as a 15 foot dwarf, which surely gave him a giggle) When did "mystical miner/blacksmith" get equated with "short"?
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Oct 6, 2019 18:07
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adding to the derail, I've seen the LoTR films so many times, but every time I think I'll give the Hobbit films a second watch I remember the barrel scene...
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Oct 6, 2019 18:08
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big scary monsters posted:We have Tolkien to thank for the association between dwarves and Jewish people, don't we? I don't know that they were originally the target, there not being much of a Jewish presence in Scandinavia historically. I heard that the myth comes from a different racism - that they were based on Finns. Wagner's Alberich was explicitly an antisemitic stereotype, but he was drawing on existing medieval lore. Miftan posted:Aren't Tolkien Orcs supposed to be a stand in for East Asians? That's 1940s iirc Tolkein's orcs were very different from post-Tolkein orcs, which owed a great deal to Robert E. Howard's 'savages'. Tolkein's orcs were a British underclass degraded and mutated by industrialisation - when he compares them to the 'least lovely mongoloids', he means they look like they have Down's Syndrome.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:09
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The barrel scene is excellent.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:09
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OwlFancier posted:The barrel scene is excellent.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:15
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What's the barrel scene, why is it so divisive, and does it involve the phrase "It's your turn in the barrel?"
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Oct 6, 2019 18:17
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM7byUTrSZA
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Oct 6, 2019 18:18
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