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now that i kinda worked out how to play the game about half of the runs feel like i'm actually making cool tactical decisions when i carefully build my wand and improvise my way through the dungeon. the flask helps a lot. the other half of the time i get surrounded or something explodes next to me suddenly
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Oct 7, 2019 15:16
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I've never laughed at my death more than this game.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:21
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eke out posted:yeah this is like dead cells, right? let me throw currency at things in the Holy Mountain where I sacrifice money on my current run to allow a little more flexibility or guarantees in the future Yeah I like the randomness giving you variety, but I also find after a while I do want a bit more consistency with my runs, and letting you sacrifice stuff from a run for longer term unlocks lets you a: achieve progression even if you know you can't make this run really work, and b: fits with the overall theme of building knowledge of the world over time. Given the key is interaction between mechanics, there's plenty of room for unlocking part of a combination but still having some variety in what it actually ends up manifesting as. Especially if you add some kind of restriction to the unlocks, letting you only pick one per floor, or rapidly escalating costs to pick more than one, encouraging you to work with the random options most of the time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 15:21
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eke out posted:I feel like the biggest problem i run into is getting bad rng with spells/wands where i can't keep up with the difficulty spike at level 3 because my damage just hasn't scaled fast enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AYWEmopVFc If you're having trouble with those levels, I would recommend being careful about your positioning. Basically, you do not ever want to be in line of sight of ranged enemies unless you plan to be shooting them. And you only wanna do that either if you're gonna immediately kill them, or pop them a couple times and then go back around a corner(since enemies do not immediately shoot at you after you enter line of sight(I think this might actually not apply to enemies that are holding wands, which is a bit goofy)). So you can repeatedly corner peek enemies to kill them over several bursts if need be. If the enemy is pushing up on the corner you're peeking them around and you can't kill them before they get around it, you gotta fall back to another corner, so it's good to know where another one is you can retreat to. Also, hiisi jetpackers cannot shoot straight up or down, which is very exploitable.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:34
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IronicDongz posted:You don't need to scale your damage up to get past level 3, the base sparkbolt spell swapped over onto the bomb wand is plenty to get through floors 3 and 4. Yes, you see the problem is that this is actually really boring and Noita markets itself as being a game about making cool spells and exploiting a really sick physics engine, not as Gears of Wand. The fact that this strategy works is fine, the fact that it's often optimal or mandatory if the RNG fucks you is less fine.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:25
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Looks like a very tedious way to get through levels 3 and 4, and I wouldn't say it is plenty to get through those floors either. It requires a fair bit of skill and an awful lot of patience. That being said I have played a lot of this game and only been stuck with that wand by level 3 maybe 2 or 3 times
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Oct 7, 2019 16:36
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resistentialism posted:or let you pull spells out of wands and let you toss spells on the ground, but not allow you to slot spells back into your wands without the perk Thinking about it again: maybe when you're picking a wand up off the floor and looking at the inventory slot-deciding screen, you get the option to break the wand and release the spells in it onto the ground, after a confirmation. Would mostly guarantee the player was doing it intentionally.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:47
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I don’t think letting you freely edit wands would be a good thing, because it would absolutely kill off loads of tension and strategizing / decision making in the game. If you get four wands that you like and find a fifth you also like, there’s no more hard decision - just strip off all the useful parts and leave the rest. I could maybe see some kind of random, rare room that would let you edit wands while inside, or something similar. There’s a very distinct flow to Search for wands > find one > try to make it to the holy mountain to modify it before getting blown up > use newly made wand to help out in the next harder area. I think the core problem of “sometimes you don’t get to have fun with the cool tools available” is one that could more gracefully be solved by just fiddling with the RNG, if the engine would allow for it. Tweak drop rates so wands are more likely to spawn in major paths in the first area, and maybe the second. If there’s not many wands on the “main” path to the next area, then have the holy mountain spawn primarily cheap wands. Stuff like that would help improve the problems without compromising the general flow and pacing. Who knows how easy it would be to implement those kind of changes in the current engine, though.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:48
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I remember the very first wand I picked up was a shotgun machinegun wand with bouncing shots and I still think that's the best general use wand I've seen in the game.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:54
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CodfishCartographer posted:I don’t think letting you freely edit wands would be a good thing, because it would absolutely kill off loads of tension and strategizing / decision making in the game. If you get four wands that you like and find a fifth you also like, there’s no more hard decision - just strip off all the useful parts and leave the rest. The problem is that at the moment I don't think the decision making you're talking about is interesting. Your progress is so heavily dependent on "can I make a half decent attack wand" that all of your decisions until you are doing so have to be geared towards that objective. The theory of "oh well maybe you can try and do all your killing with environmental effects to compensate for your lack of direct damage" is a nice one, but in practice it just doesn't work. You end up filling huge areas of the map with fire or poison, and all the gold from enemies falls into it and despawns where you can't reach it without taking huge amounts of damage. I wonder if it would be nice to axe the idea of Acid/Fire/Poison/Whatever immunity as perks and make them equippable cloaks which can be found in the world like potions? Only allow you to equip one at a time, of course. Being more reliably able to make yourself immune to a single status effect would incentivise more use of environmental physics to kill enemies, because it wouldn't also be so horrendously risky to you.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:00
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 Just dive into a big ol pile of meat with a chainsaw.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:05
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The_White_Crane posted:Yes, you see the problem is that this is actually really boring and Noita markets itself as being a game about making cool spells and exploiting a really sick physics engine, not as Gears of Wand. You can make it through with just the starting wands, and in practice you have don't have to make it through with just the starting wands-you have more than that. So there's no such thing as being unable to keep up because your damage "hasn't scaled fast enough". That's just not the kind of game that this is. You can debate the pace of the game if you like but that's not really the point I'm making. You do not require good RNG to get past the first couple of floors, you require skill and game knowledge. Also, Noita does not just market itself as a game about cool spells and pixel simulation, it also markets itself as a roguelike. Strategy and patience is part of roguelikes.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:15
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OwlFancier posted:I still think some sort of meta progression would help. Is this not what it means when it says I have unlocked the secrets of lightning or something?
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Oct 7, 2019 17:16
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gonadic io posted:Is this not what it means when it says I have unlocked the secrets of lightning or something? When it what what? I've never seen that.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:17
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OwlFancier posted:When it what what? I've never seen that. The first time you pick up an orb I've found 2: one in the sky island just to the east of the start, and one far east of the snowey biome both said something similar.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:28
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The_White_Crane posted:The problem is that at the moment I don't think the decision making you're talking about is interesting. gently caress it, randomly spawn robes that have various enchantments just like wands, and you can swap around enchantments freely between robes in the holy mountain. Or maybe just make it so you can add enchantments / runes / charms / whatever to your starting robe that can also only be swapped at the holy mountain, but you can find them like wands. So then you need to decide if you want to fully dedicate to immunity to one thing, or a spread of different resistances, etc. Can have general safe stuff like “reduced toxic damage“ etc, but then also goofy poo poo like “always on fire” and “heal by eating corpses”
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Oct 7, 2019 17:31
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Messed a bit around with copying the character data file between runs/after deleting the world state file since one goon mentioned using that to keep saves of a run and I was curious what kinda shenanigans you can do with the fact those files are two different entities. Some of my discoveries (spoilered just to be safe): Deleting the world state file seems to create a new world, but keep you in whatever place you were before. Only tried that in a Holy Mountain, no idea if you can get yourself stuck in a well this way otherwise. You keep everything inventory wise like your staffs, money and even perks but it seems that what perks you picked up are saved on the world state file. As a result when I got to the second Holy Mountain I actually got to pick up a second copy of the perk that increases your flight duration (Think they're called Levitate Up? But yeah, two of the same exact one) and it actually stacked. Next thing I tried starting a new game, then Save & Quitting and replacing the character file that I saved. The result was pretty similiar: When I loaded the game I came back to the spot in the Holy Mountain I was at when I copied my character file. I did notice somethings though: While the mountain did the whole earthquake thing to seal off the altar thing, there actually were perks still under the rubble, so presumably you can try and dig your way to those somehow and potentially get more perks than you normaly should. Only downside, and I am not sure if that is also there when you play the game normally since I never tried to get back inside: Seems like there is also a "Holy Mountains Curse" effect in the altar area that appears afterwards which will drain a lot of health if you stay inside of it. Once I got time to play videogames again I might mess around some more with it. If you can actually gain more perks this way, especially when heading back to the surface is still fairly doable, you could probably give yourself a whole bunch of bullshit like immunities, levitation power ups and such to make exploring the world really easy. Next time I can play some videogames I might go around and see if I can mess around some more with that. Honestly, this game so far has been tickling a part of my brain that hasn't been in a long while. The strange things you can find all over the world, the weird secrets and lore bits and just the atmosphere really nails that "There is a mystery waiting to be uncovered" feeling. I am sure the dataminers are gonna find everything there is and put it for people to read about soon enough, but till then I am gonna run around and see what I find while I poke around. Also, to give my two cents about the current discussion: Personally I am in the crowd that gets kinda frustrated when I put together a new staff build idea or get a neat set of perks and then die to some ice/lightnining rear end in a top hat in level 3 exploding my face right after I get out of the holy mountain. Think part of the problem is that the very beginning is always kinda the same, especially if you don't find new staffs quickly in the first level and eventually you get to the point where you kinda wanna just get back to the part where you got stuff collected and can play around with spell loadouts but have to sit through the early grind first. Does not help that the difficulty jump from 2 to 3 feels pretty big.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:35
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gonadic io posted:The first time you pick up an orb I believe that it drops a spell, in addition those spells have been unlocked and can spawn in wands and shops in later runs.
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Oct 7, 2019 18:14
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Greader posted:Also, to give my two cents about the current discussion: Personally I am in the crowd that gets kinda frustrated when I put together a new staff build idea or get a neat set of perks and then die to some ice/lightnining rear end in a top hat in level 3 exploding my face right after I get out of the holy mountain. Think part of the problem is that the very beginning is always kinda the same, especially if you don't find new staffs quickly in the first level and eventually you get to the point where you kinda wanna just get back to the part where you got stuff collected and can play around with spell loadouts but have to sit through the early grind first. Does not help that the difficulty jump from 2 to 3 feels pretty big. Yeah, I think more variety in the first area wouldn’t hurt, along with maybe making area 3 a tad easier. I’ve never really felt like area 2 is harder at all than area 1, honestly. Sometimes it even feels easier! It feels like Areas 1 and 2 are meant to be the training grounds where you get your poo poo together and prepare for the “real” game, which begins in area 3. While I enjoy roguelikes, I’ve never been particularly good at them, and “repeat the first area a billion times” always feels like the norm to me. Are there ways that other roguelikes alleviate this issue?
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Oct 7, 2019 18:24
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Viscous Soda posted:I believe that it drops a spell, in addition those spells have been unlocked and can spawn in wands and shops in later runs. If that's how it's supposed to work, it doesn't. I've encountered plenty spells that I know come in orbs but I've never gotten the orb for. For example, Nuke and Holy Grenade.
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Oct 7, 2019 18:35
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Greader posted:If you can actually gain more perks this way, especially when heading back to the surface is still fairly doable, you could probably give yourself a whole bunch of bullshit I usually skip the busted side-effects since i was mostly looking for a checkpoint system to skip the inital tutorial tunnel or zone 1. The laziest way is to set the player file to read only to stop the game from deleting it on death, but that also breaks certain other parts of the game (like wand UI or being able to pick up gold). I figure if you want to go full on cheatmode setting up a proper CE table is probably way less hassle than restarting the game over and over anyway. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 18:38
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I just had a run with the perfect wand that shot a magic missile spawning multiple homing, bouncing, freezing sawblades. Then I got a bit stuck in the labyrinthine passages of level 4, and since I didn't really have any explodey or digging spells, tried to kick a tnt crate in just the right place to get to the teleporter. You can guess how that ended.
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Oct 7, 2019 18:40
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Qylvaran posted:If that's how it's supposed to work, it doesn't. I've encountered plenty spells that I know come in orbs but I've never gotten the orb for. For example, Nuke and Holy Grenade.
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Oct 7, 2019 18:41
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IronicDongz posted:Yeah, the spells in the orbs are spells that all can already show up. But I think that's placeholder and they will need to be unlocked later. (Or the spells in the orbs will be replaced with new spells that need to be unlocked.) Yeah that's my guess as well. I'd wager that all the orb stuff in its current state is only partially finished
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Oct 7, 2019 18:44
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Edit wands everywhere should be a alternate mode you pick to start with, or better, have it being not on listed as a hardcore option.
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Oct 7, 2019 18:57
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This is one of my favorite games of 2019. Pure fun but challenging When am I gonna get a sandbox (lol) mode.
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Oct 7, 2019 19:04
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Oct 7, 2019 19:05
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Oct 7, 2019 19:07
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lmao
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Oct 7, 2019 19:13
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CodfishCartographer posted:Yeah, I think more variety in the first area wouldn’t hurt, along with maybe making area 3 a tad easier. I’ve never really felt like area 2 is harder at all than area 1, honestly. Sometimes it even feels easier! It feels like Areas 1 and 2 are meant to be the training grounds where you get your poo poo together and prepare for the “real” game, which begins in area 3. Agreed, 3 is a real ball kicker. I just got killed there because there was a rapid fire tank shooting up the Holy Land exit. I couldn't run away because the snow had become uneven due to the fire fight, and I couldn't levitate because the tank would shoot me down. IMO there should be a "easy mode". Maybe like the player starts with 150 health and a random wand spawns at the entrance?
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Oct 7, 2019 19:18
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I feel like the biggest source of frustration for me is that a) enemies are pretty good at leading their shots, and b) when you get hit you lose levitation and fall down, making escaping from two or more enemies difficult and a recipe for tears in the ice caves.
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Oct 7, 2019 19:28
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Incredible
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Oct 7, 2019 19:40
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Holy poo poo, how?
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Oct 7, 2019 19:53
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CodfishCartographer posted:Holy poo poo, how? https://old.reddit.com/r/noita/comments/dekvyt/the_gods_have_angered_you/ always-casts-bomb wand and chainsaws
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Oct 7, 2019 19:54
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Today I learned that bubble spark is a powerful digging tool, especially with homing. The little pop at the end can even dig brickwork.
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Oct 7, 2019 20:00
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If you lack homing they're still very good for digging up. You can get them embedded in the ground above you if you grind your face into the ceiling.
resistentialism fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 20:02
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speaking of homing, it makes an absolute mess of the black hole spell. it can't hurt enemies, but it'll accelerate toward them anyway, which can triple the amount of digging you get out of a single cast. or make it bounce away from where you're trying to aim
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Oct 7, 2019 20:19
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Zoig posted:Edit wands everywhere should be a alternate mode you pick to start with, or better, have it being not on listed as a hardcore option. This, just make a couple options when starting a run/in the options menu listed as softcore toggles, like have edit wands anywhere default on. Hell, throw in some other things for people who aren't totally into roguelikes and just want to see Stupid Wand Tricks, such as quicksaving.
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Oct 7, 2019 20:39
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Yeah I found myself basically unable to dig at all once I picked up the homing perk in my last run. Ended up desperate enough to use teleport pot to get past walls in level 4
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Oct 7, 2019 20:40
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I got something like this a bit ago... but with giant firebolts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgrMooTqrKA&t=551s anytime you get a "always cast [damage spell]" wand you become death, destroyer of worlds as soon as you slap a chainsaw on that bad boy
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Oct 7, 2019 21:06
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