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I feel like standard was on a good run there until WAR came out, what happened? Its not like it was just WAR either, Field and Golos were both in M20.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:14
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Lawnie posted:Hey idiots the existence of a 3 mana 2/2 with deathtouch that demands removal from tribal decks isn’t overpowered, Jesus Christ. I can’t believe how dumb I think this take is. “Well I could have killed you on turn 4 if you didn’t cast a 2/2 on your turn three!!” is the most baby poo poo I’ve read in this thread in a while. Yeah I know none of you said exactly that but it’s my strawman and it looks how I want it to look. i know this is just venting but the problem isn't that it's overpowered, the problem is that it's only fine against actual good decks and is backbreaking against fun but tier 2 decks. it effectively hates a bunch of fun decks out of the meta but doesn't really do anything meaningful against decks that are in need of checking
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Oct 7, 2019 23:23
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Mat Cauthon posted:Reprint Sowing Salt, tbh. Field of Ruin is a perfectly acceptable Magic card. It should be in all the core sets. also Astrolabe was just a clear mistake - they needed to print a one mana artifact cantrip with no other abilities first and check if that's broken, and then print a one mana artifact cantrip that provides perfect mana afterwards.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:33
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:i know this is just venting but the problem isn't that it's overpowered, the problem is that it's only fine against actual good decks and is backbreaking against fun but tier 2 decks. it effectively hates a bunch of fun decks out of the meta but doesn't really do anything meaningful against decks that are in need of checking Yes. The problem is it's a bad card to design in the first place. It doesn't add anything to any format but it absolutely destroys a bunch of decks that are already having trouble existing in formats where every other deck has been supercharged by WAR and Horizons and these decks got more or less nothing.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:36
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suicidesteve posted:Yes. The problem is it's a bad card to design in the first place. It doesn't add anything to any format but it absolutely destroys a bunch of decks that are already having trouble existing in formats where every other deck has been supercharged by WAR and Horizons and these decks got more or less nothing. the entire legacy goblins deck (except lackey) is legal in modern between horizons and m20, and they got munitions expert on top of that the problem is that the rest of the decks in the format are a lot better than that because urza [and all his friends] and wrenn and six are dumb plague engineer is quite possibly the last card on the list of things to complain about in modern
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Oct 8, 2019 00:47
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ungulateman posted:the entire legacy goblins deck (except lackey) is legal in modern between horizons and m20, and they got munitions expert on top of that So the issue is that these cool decks they are trying to support have to deal with all the usual degenerate nonsense you just mentioned and then also a card that completely blows them out and shows up somewhere in every fair deck that makes black mana. Also agreed that Field of Ruin should just be an evergreen card.
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Oct 8, 2019 01:04
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Voyager I posted:So the issue is that these cool decks they are trying to support have to deal with all the usual degenerate nonsense you just mentioned and then also a card that completely blows them out and shows up somewhere in every fair deck that makes black mana. goblins is not a cool deck
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Oct 8, 2019 01:17
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Lone Goat posted:goblins is not a cool deck Yeah its fukkin' SMOKIN'
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Oct 8, 2019 01:18
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AnEdgelord posted:I feel like standard was on a good run there until WAR came out, what happened? Its not like it was just WAR either, Field and Golos were both in M20. Alpine Moon rotated out. It alone stuffed Field of Ruin in a box. Field of Ruin also fell off. All you have now are expensive sorceries that don't really solve the problem.
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Oct 8, 2019 01:35
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ungulateman posted:the entire legacy goblins deck (except lackey) is legal in modern between horizons and m20, and they got munitions expert on top of that Wasteland and Rishadan port aren’t modern legal either which are pretty critical to the deck.
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Oct 8, 2019 02:41
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After trying a few more things on arena today, I think it's safe to say that Golos Field is an utterly miserable disaster that is going to destroy the format until they ban it. It reminds me of caw blade or affinity, even strategies entirely dedicated to trying to dunk on it specifically as hard as possible are maybe 55% to win at best. Save yourself the wild cards and don't even bother crafting your Unmoored Egos, it's garbage.
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Oct 8, 2019 02:54
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all of goblins is legal in modern! except its best one drop and the two staple lands that make it work, but uhhhhh
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Oct 8, 2019 02:59
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Remember when I said that a format without aggro decks to punish the greedy decks would be absolute trash?
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Oct 8, 2019 03:06
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There is exactly one lane available to aggro as far as I can tell, and that is casting a lot of one drops, and having all 4 Legion's End
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Oct 8, 2019 03:14
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suicidesteve posted:Yes. The problem is it's a bad card to design in the first place. It doesn't add anything to any format but it absolutely destroys a bunch of decks that are already having trouble existing in formats where every other deck has been supercharged by WAR and Horizons and these decks got more or less nothing. Putting powerful effects on bodies makes midrange decks much more viable. I don’t think the card adds nothing to any format. I do agree that it invalidates some weaker decks but I don’t think it’s a scourge by any means.
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Oct 8, 2019 03:20
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"how on earth can a tribal deck ever beat plague engineer"
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Oct 8, 2019 03:43
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sit on my Facebook posted:There is exactly one lane available to aggro as far as I can tell, and that is casting a lot of one drops, and having all 4 Legion's End legions end sucks unless you're trying to also prepare for the 1-drop aggro mirrors. once the zombies start coming out you want some kind of reach like faerie godmother, questing beast, smitten swordmaster, etc. any attempt to interact or disrupt golos will just end disastrously when your opponent just has a different payoff that you weren't prepared for. my plan against aggro is a bunch of main deck okos (also a house in the mirror because it can apply early pressure and then shut down golos/krasis/beanstalk giant) and then sky tether aka swords to plowshares in the sideboard.
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Oct 8, 2019 04:01
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AnEdgelord posted:I feel like standard was on a good run there until WAR came out, what happened? Its not like it was just WAR either, Field and Golos were both in M20. War is a good set though?
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Oct 8, 2019 04:37
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I wonder if there is a build of temur rec that does't suck poo poo. Maybe some questing beasts to take out teferi or win through Cerulean Drake. Because it doesn't matter how many zombie tokens they have if you can just dome them for 20
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Oct 8, 2019 04:49
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Field of the Dead mirror going into innings. For the most part the guy seems to know his deck, but he's running the version with Kenrith, the Returned King. He drops him and uses his activated ability to bring back my Agent of Treachery. I'm assuming he didn't read closely and thought it would come in under his control. I nab his Kenrith. "Oops" He emotes. "Oops," I agree. I might just add Kenrith to my field build. I was able to use 4 of my own Fields and 2 of his to make just an absurd number of dudes with some land drops and haste in. It is even filthier when your infinite zombie swarm can be hasty.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:21
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The only thing better than losing a game to a disconnect for no reason is losing a rank as a result!
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Oct 8, 2019 05:33
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ilmucche posted:Don't see how plague engineer is that bad. Seems like it was aiming for humans and to a lesser extent spirits but whiffed and took out all the goofy tribal decks. ungulateman posted:"how on earth can a tribal deck ever beat plague engineer" Faithless posting indeed.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:38
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So I just loaded up a new account on MTGA to use up some free codes. Did you know the game will put newbie decks on a new account against Golos Fields? Good times.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:41
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little munchkin posted:legions end sucks unless you're trying to also prepare for the 1-drop aggro mirrors. once the zombies start coming out you want some kind of reach like faerie godmother, questing beast, smitten swordmaster, etc. any attempt to interact or disrupt golos will just end disastrously when your opponent just has a different payoff that you weren't prepared for. Legions end is amazing against golos. You can clear their zombies, frequently leaving them with only a single blocker, to punch through the last few points out damage once they've started the engine up, and it hits krasis too. What's not to love?
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Oct 8, 2019 05:52
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I kinda miss Chainwhirler, because it'd be absolutely nuts with Torbran vs. Field decks. Although, Dagger Caster is a card that exists in standard...
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Oct 8, 2019 06:04
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ungulateman posted:"how on earth can a tribal deck ever beat plague engineer" ....so the second they draw a removal spell your game is over? Owlbear Camus posted:Field of the Dead mirror going into innings. For the most part the guy seems to know his deck, but he's running the version with Kenrith, the Returned King. He drops him and uses his activated ability to bring back my Agent of Treachery. I'm assuming he didn't read closely and thought it would come in under his control. I nab his Kenrith. Kenrith also is totally bananas at shutting down aggro if you ever untap - 4WW to gain 10 a turn is pretty good at stabilizing. Probably want the 5th and 6th Wraths first though.
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Oct 8, 2019 06:38
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Hastey zombies out of nowhere for the win is a pretty compelling reason to run Kenny.
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Oct 8, 2019 06:45
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ilmucche posted:Faithless posting indeed. put more lords in your bad tier 2 tribal deck, i guess? i'm really struggling to think of a tribe that actually has this problem. scion of oona is a 1/1 so i suppose faeries are pretty bad into it. metallic mimic also has 1 toughness so tribes that don't actually exist are bad. real tribes have game plans beyond 'put 1/1s on the battlefield, pump them and attack'. meanwhile, non-tribal decks that plague engineer is also good against: - infect loses the game as soon as plague engineer resolves - soul sisters has gone from niche to hilariously bad - abzan, because lingering souls gets cleanly answered 1-for-1 and it's a deathtoucher that shits up the ground - w/b tokens for similar reasons except it at least gets to play intangible virtue and whatnot - hatebears because it kills thalia and blade splicer (or flickerwisp) and proceeds to poo poo up the ground - affinity's creature(s) just die if they don't get steel overseer down and working beforehand, but it also has a surprisingly wide variety of creature types - sai outcome decks, except urza is so wildly broken it doesn't matter that the thopters instantly die Hellsau posted:....so the second they draw a removal spell your game is over? tribal decks are also able to run removal capable of killing a gray ogre. i would say 'dies to doom blade' but it actually doesn't.
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Oct 8, 2019 07:00
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What? That's impossible, Spirits is a terrible deck that has no good matchups, this thread has been belligerently insistent on this point.
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Oct 8, 2019 07:04
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Ungulate I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Spirits is a strong deck that has decent game. Flashing in counterspell creatures, lords and occasionally removal is maddening.
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Oct 8, 2019 07:13
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I will concede that Plague Engineer is disproportionately bad against Spirits because of Supreme Phantom, and because the entire deck flies over its cruddy 2/2 deathtouch body. Faeries would do the same thing if its lord wasn't crap, especially compared to how good Spirits' lords are.ilmucche posted:Ungulate I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Plague Engineer is a pretty good card that is reasonably playable, which is a cut above most of Modern Horizons and significantly less egregious than four I can think of off the top of my head. I would have costed 1BB so that it more accurately mirrors the lord effects it's a 'counter' to, and so it would be less splashable. That's much less of a problem than Urza, who should cost 5, or Astrolabe/Hogaak/Wrenn and Six, who shouldn't exist. ungulateman fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 07:14
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So the conclusion is...ilmucche posted:It sucks when it changes bitterblossom text to read "lose 1 life every turn", but is manageable with pretty much any removal. Oko and small teferi are worse to play against. ShadeofBlue posted:Yeah, "sucks to play against, but is manageable" is definitely the best way to describe it, which isn't exactly shining praise for the design of the card. ???
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Oct 8, 2019 07:21
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Okay, I think "sucks to play against but manageable" is exactly the target to aim for in Modern Horizons, otherwise it just begs the question of why you're printing it there instead of into Standard. See also Astral Drift, Ephemerate, Giver or Runes, Force of Negation, Goblin Engineer, Aria of Flame, Seasoned Pyromancer, Unsettled Mariner, and the swords. (Unsettled Mariner is an interesting example because it uses deliberately defunct phrasing in order to make the card more powerful, which is a good reason to not print it into Standard.) The part where they designed Return to Time Spiral and marketed it as 'cards intended for modern', and then pushed a handful of cards to try and justify that, is the related problem. ungulateman fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 07:31
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ungulateman posted:otherwise it just begs the question of why you're printing it there instead of into Standard.
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Oct 8, 2019 07:32
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if you're printing a card that is unfun and sucky to play against, the question you should be asking is "why the gently caress are we printing this card at all"
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Oct 8, 2019 07:44
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Jabor posted:if you're printing a card that is unfun and sucky to play against, the question you should be asking is "why the gently caress are we printing this card at all" Yes why did they make Jace the mind sculptor
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Oct 8, 2019 07:48
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Jabor posted:if you're printing a card that is unfun and sucky to play against, the question you should be asking is "why the gently caress are we printing this card at all" 'Release Valve' cards- something that exists just in case a problem is getting out of control. It's easy NOW to forget that for a good chunk of the time Modern Horizons was in development, Humans and Spirits were two of the top decks in Modern. Plague Engineer exists as a broad answer for if a creature-centric deck (besides Eldrazi, I guess) starts getting out of hand the way Humans were for a bit. (It's just, y'know, maybe TOO broad of an answer because, as people are complaining, it's a fine card against good decks but is practically the nuclear option against a lot of fringe decks that already struggle to find a foothold.) Of course, it wasn't that long before that Hollow One was running roughshod over the format and Grave Troll wound up back on the Banned List, but their response to that was to show the world they don't know poo poo and turn the 'Graveyard Nonsense' dial to like fourteen and break it off, so maybe that's a little too much credit.
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Oct 8, 2019 07:56
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Additionally, fun isn't zero-sum, but there's definitely a lot more room to design cards that are fun to play and unfun to play against, and the 'net fun' of such cards might be worth it. This is why limited bombs exist (beyond the obvious cynical reason of 'the power level of constructed formats should be defined by the rarest cards').
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Oct 8, 2019 07:58
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Jabor posted:if you're printing a card that is unfun and sucky to play against, the question you should be asking is "why the gently caress are we printing this card at all" A rec.games.mtg post from '96 about counterspell
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Oct 8, 2019 10:47
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Ensnaring bridge is a more egregiously stupid card than plague engineer but they're both still bad cards to have in a format. Certain things proobably shouldn't be so easy to hate against.
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Oct 8, 2019 11:47
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