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leftcom: I don't get these communists; they're breakin' the deal! it's like they decided to ignore me! jerry: so they're like everyone else
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Oct 5, 2019 20:42
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Flavius Aetass posted:Not familiar with left-communism. It's an infantile disorder OP
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Oct 5, 2019 22:57
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had a discussion with someone with about whether soviet annexations could be classified as imperialism. my feeling was that imperialism was primarily about being extractive; like what the british did to india, taking out resources, and not only not giving them anything in return but making them buy the finished products made from their resources with their own money. gdp, quality of life, etc crumble and the only infrastructure built like rail is in order to facilitate resource exploitation - the imperialist country takes out more than they put in i think there's an argument that that's what the ussr did to east germany with reparations and all, but is it true with any of their constituent republics or even most of the warsaw pact? like the azeri, armenian, kazakh whatever SSRs - did the central government act in a resource extractive way, or did they put in more than they took out with the buildup of industry, health, education, transport and other infrastructure?
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Oct 5, 2019 23:04
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uncop posted:You mean the people implementing red capitalism, but yes. 
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Oct 6, 2019 02:25
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mila kunis posted:had a discussion with someone with about whether soviet annexations could be classified as imperialism. Soviet republics benefited immensely from being incorporated into the USSR. The Bolhseviks achieved mass literacy in Central Asia in a matter of years, and the Soviets were serious about making sure local communists were appointed to leadership positions in their respective republics instead of having something like a viceroy appointed from the metropole. Certainly there was some uneven development going on, but it wasn't a completely one-way relationship like colonialism. Procurement under the Soviet system was also completely different because of the social dynamic of its political economy. Georgia used to be the richest Soviet Republic, even moreso than people in the Russian SFSR, because Georgians were really good at boozing & schmoozing within the Soviet system. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Georgia was relegated to being an economic backwater because it has little to offer a world where trade and commodity values are the only things that matter. The Soviets were serious about developing the industrial capacities of its member republics, while colonialism actively de-industrializes subject countries because all enterprise has to be directed towards fueling the industrial development of the metropole. There are aspects of the Soviet system that superficially resemble imperialism, but in actual practice it's a completely different kind of political economy. The Soviets built up economic interdependencies that couldn't survive in its absence. Colonies under imperialism were actively deindustrialized by colonial interests, while Soviet republics wouldn't be deindustrialized until they were forced to by the global market economy.
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Oct 6, 2019 02:46
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I have to agree with Pener - what I've read of the experience of the former Soviet Republics was that they genuinely benefit from being a part of the USSR, to the extent that when it dissolved (or even just as Gorbachev's market reforms were implemented), quality-of-life plummeted just from the fact that logistics and resourcing arrangements were disrupted, separate and apart from the privatization that would follow. To paraphrase Kotkin, it was a bum deal for the USSR to have countries like Romania, Bulgaria, post-war Poland, and the poorer quarter of Germany placed into its orbit, compared to the West's Italy, Low Countries, and three-quarters of the more industrialized part of Germany, and especially since the USSR was then heavily invested into uplifting those countries, when it itself was already struggling with the cost of post-war rebuilding sans a Marshall Plan.
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Oct 6, 2019 04:13
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Autism Sneaks posted:It's an infantile disorder OP lenin said bordiga did nothing wrong 
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Oct 6, 2019 06:53
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Anybody following this Daryl Morey news lol
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Oct 7, 2019 05:11
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Helsing posted:Comrades, I know in my heart that with this bold new leadership CSPAM can overtake Negrotown as the subforum that generates the most complaints about moderation
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Oct 7, 2019 21:00
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Helsing posted:Comrades, I know in my heart that with this bold new leadership CSPAM can overtake Negrotown as the subforum that generates the most complaints about moderation
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Oct 7, 2019 21:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
A weird result of this was that during the Tajikistan Civil War, a major point of conflict was control of the aluminum factory in the country, which is one of the largest in the world. Tajikistan doesn't actually have any raw aluminum, the Soviets built the factory there to build up local industry.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:40
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Ruzihm posted:lenin said bordiga did nothing wrong Bordiga was a self proclaimed leninist
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Oct 7, 2019 23:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Soviets were serious about developing the industrial capacities of its member republics i was under the impression that the soviets diverted a large amount of the economic surplus towards developing industry, yet relied heavily on importing technological innovations from the west, which is related to the fact that they never developing a truly effective set of domestic R&D institutions. so while their strategy may have resulted in a speed run thru the early stages of economic development, there was nowhere to go after that Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 00:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE_ccFHjL_w so how much of this is bullshit?
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Oct 8, 2019 01:21
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Finicums Wake posted:i was under the impression that the soviets diverted a large amount of the economic surplus towards developing industry, yet relied heavily on importing technological innovations from the west, which is related to the fact that they never developing a truly effective set of domestic R&D institutions. so while their strategy may have resulted in a speed run thru the early stages of economic development, there was nowhere to go after that They literally sent a man into space first
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Oct 8, 2019 02:25
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Yeah idk what to tell you dude. The soviets have less technology thing is kind of a meme. They were behind in electronics, but thats it. And even then that was because we rapidly classified it as a defense technology (cant emigrate to non-NATO powers to work) and then also stopped exporting even consumer stuff to the SU
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Oct 8, 2019 03:07
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poo poo, didn’t the soviets put the first satellite into space too? there’s some dumb apple tv show coming out with the premise that the soviets made it to the moon first too
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Oct 8, 2019 03:12
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the soviets and the eastern bloc were constantly faced with the issue that any scientist or engineer past a certain level of skill would be tempted to emigrate or defect to the West and possibly get richer than anyone could be in a socialist society. even though they were educated and trained in a socialist society.
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Oct 8, 2019 03:14
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the Soviets were first satellite in space, first man in space, first woman, first dog, first to orbit the moon, first to plant a spacecraft on the moon, and so on and so on hell maybe they were the first to gently caress in space, I'd believe it but then the US gets first man on the moon and that's supposed to erase everything else
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Oct 8, 2019 03:16
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i think a lot of the perception has to do with how the US and USSR developed industrially. the US has always had a very capital intensive industrial output with lots of customized machines that were impossibly precise. this allows you to make to lots and lots of fancy and expensive things because you were the only world power that wasn't bombed to gently caress in WW2 and as the hegemon of capitalism you can do this. meanwhile the ussr has to spend its resources recovering from the nazis and then catching up to american military research and production. so your industrial production methods become simplified and less capital intense. so you can produce lots of basic stuff but the production requirements for stuff like high end electronics is going to mean the output is limited
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Oct 8, 2019 03:18
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tbh it wasnt until the late 80s that semiconductors needed really precise conditions lol. according to my dad back in the day you could open a fabricator plant for like a million dollars. the estimate cost of a full clean room production facility for precise poo poo like modern CPUs is now a few billion iirc lol. But it's true that the Soviets were constantly having to expand civilian industrial capacity and still dump tons of resources into maintaining detente with literally half the world. Doesnt leave much room for consumer electronics which is pretty objectively a luxury good until recently
Larry Parrish fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 03:35
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I would have loved to be able to see what a Soviet computer would have been like, circa-2012 or something. Just playing Fortnite on my vacuum-tube NVidianovich GRU (Graphics Rendering Unit, of course) that needs to be constantly fed with ice-water to keep going.
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Oct 8, 2019 04:23
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It'd be awesome to play games from socialist development studios that gave a single goddamn poo poo about power efficiency
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Oct 8, 2019 05:08
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victoria 2 measures your efficiency in the pile of anarcho-capitalist rebel corpses you leave in your wake
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Oct 8, 2019 05:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would have loved to be able to see what a Soviet computer would have been like, circa-2012 or something. Just playing Fortnite on my vacuum-tube NVidianovich GRU (Graphics Rendering Unit, of course) that needs to be constantly fed with ice-water to keep going. Every apartment block could just have a giant super computer you network to from a terminal in your apartment.
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Oct 8, 2019 08:41
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https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1181390386721366018?s=20 how is this tweet and all the replies to it about how this is/isn't a feminist issue. the obvious problem is that encouraging men to explicitly see socialist organizing as a dating opportunity is incredibly stupid.
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Oct 8, 2019 09:10
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1181390386721366018?s=20 im more excited for the ideological divison within socialist dating, tearfully imagining having to turn in my gf to the NKVD because shes some kinda anarcho-communist and im a strict marxist-leninist
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Oct 8, 2019 09:36
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Venom Snake posted:im more excited for the ideological divison within socialist dating, tearfully imagining having to turn in my gf to the NKVD because shes some kinda anarcho-communist and im a strict marxist-leninist
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Oct 8, 2019 09:44
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Oct 8, 2019 09:44
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Oct 8, 2019 14:24
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rip homex
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Oct 8, 2019 14:29
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:rip homex so much for the tolerant left
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Oct 8, 2019 14:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would have loved to be able to see what a Soviet computer would have been like, circa-2012 or something. Just playing Fortnite on my vacuum-tube NVidianovich GRU (Graphics Rendering Unit, of course) that needs to be constantly fed with ice-water to keep going. It would probably be 5-10 years behind the current generation, have some capability issues, and a Cyrillic keyboard but generally be fairly familiar tech. The East Germans/Soviets were able to produce a 80286 clone by 1989, 7 years after intel's version came out. It was just generally an issue of investment, and that COMECON was just economically much weaker than the West and in that context reserve engineering coupled with independent development made more sense. (Also, Bulgaria had specialized in electronics and computing which was a big jump for a traditionally agricultural country.)
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Oct 8, 2019 14:48
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Ardennes posted:It would probably be 5-10 years behind the current generation, have some capability issues, and a Cyrillic keyboard but generally be fairly familiar tech. The East Germans/Soviets were able to produce a 80286 clone by 1989, 7 years after intel's version came out. Soviet tech would probably have taken a different direction and branched out into ternary computing, and with that having more of a baseline to push into quantum computing.
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Oct 8, 2019 15:14
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:rip homex
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Oct 9, 2019 11:13
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Regarding USSR's nature regarding imperialism, much like its nature regarding capitalism, there were always two sides to things, and different onlookers disagreed about which side was primary and when, if ever, the primary side had changed. You know, you always give some and you take some. I find the most convincing proposed yardstick for imperialism to be cultivating dependence of other nations on the imperialist. The annexations USSR made IMO weren't of an inherently imperialist nature since it was mostly disputed territory between nations and regarding the Baltic states there was the plausible ideal of waging class war on their behalf, and AFAIK they were treated as equals in good and bad. The formation of the Eastern Bloc wasn't inherently imperialist either for similar reasons, there was regime change and a compelled military and foreign policy alliance but the idea sort of was to free the people to improve their own lot apart from war reparations and unilateral technology pilfering associated with them. The imperialist potential was always there of course, like even if the Soviets were true to their word and thought they were waging class war to unite a bunch of peoples that had essentially common interests, the reality was only as true as the interests of the CPSU aligned with the interests of all the peoples they had this gigantic influence over, since the rest hardly an equivalent influence to push back against its policy if there were major disagreements. Communists worldwide were dumbfounded with Hungary in 1956, which signaled major faults in that assumption which they took as dogma, and tried to explain it away as a coincidence caused by internal fascist cells and foreign intervention or something silly like that. But critically it was a signal for the CPSU to start building more one-sided dependence relations to keep their bloc together without the violence that broadcasts to everyone that something is not as it seems. Cuba was the first country that the USSR built from the ground up to be an economically dependent one, they immediately sent lots of economic advisors who convinced them to primarily develop their existing monocrop exports as the engine to build state industry. It had not used to be communist policy to grow sugar in order to buy food, but now it was. This made it explicit that a crucial turning point had happened in Soviet policy. The Chinese picked up on it first as the Cubans kept trying to get them to exchange more and more food for sugar, while they had expected the food to be temporary aid while Cuba was transitioning from growing sugar to growing food, which would have meant reduction over the years.
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Oct 9, 2019 11:51
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:rip homex
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Oct 9, 2019 12:38
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https://youtu.be/XRqex0p9qos
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Oct 9, 2019 15:03
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Oct 9, 2019 16:00
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:rip homex
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Oct 9, 2019 16:16
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