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This is the origin story of Joker I enjoyed most. He was crazy the whole movie and was simply never happy until he stopped fighting it. Plays much better than the versions that have a Darkman-esque "Now I'm crazy" moment.Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Am I an idiot or is ‘the whole movie is a joke the Joker was telling himself in the psychiatrist interview’ a possible interpretation of the film?
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Oct 9, 2019 21:15
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Thomas Wayne being a finance rear end in a top hat makes more sense than kindly Dr Wayne from Batman Begins. No good person takes a ten year old to the opera either way.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:22
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well why not posted:Thomas Wayne being a finance rear end in a top hat makes more sense than kindly Dr Wayne from Batman Begins. No good person takes a ten year old to the opera either way. It all makes sense now. The killer was in the theater that night.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:26
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well why not posted:Thomas Wayne being a finance rear end in a top hat makes more sense than kindly Dr Wayne from Batman Begins. No good person takes a ten year old to the opera either way. Isn't Wayne Enterprises in Batman Begins?
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Oct 9, 2019 21:31
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I really would've preferred the film without any of the overt Batman scenes. Like yeah have Wayne be the figure in the background running for office and have him be a symbol of class division. They could keep the scene of him condemning the poor and mentally ill. But the actual confrontation with him and showing the Wayne parent's death felt really out of place in an otherwise (relatively) grounded film. He could've easily found out about his mother without going to the mansion or approaching Wayne in the bathroom. And I really didn't need to see the Joker meet young Bruce.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:33
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You could change Thomas Wayne's name and excise every Bruce scene from the film and it would be the same exact movie.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:39
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Steve2911 posted:He could've easily found out about his mother without going to the mansion or approaching Wayne in the bathroom. And I really didn't need to see the Joker meet young Bruce. are you saying the insane clown criminal doesn’t make the most reasoned decisions
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Oct 9, 2019 21:39
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Blast Fantasto posted:are you saying the insane clown criminal doesn’t make the most reasoned decisions No I'm saying they were bad scenes that added nothing to the movie other than to allow people to point at the screen and say 'I know this'.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:42
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Honestly I really appreciated the Thomas Wayne stuff if only for actually showing what kind of thing would make you into the “what’s the frequency, Kenneth” guy.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:48
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Saw the movie yesterday. It was pretty good, I give it a solid B+. I don't think I ever have to watch it again though. I thought Phoenix's acting was superb, but frankly I found it unpleasant to watch 2 hours of an extremely mentally disturbed man transforming into the Joker. Couple of things that felt odd or kind of bothered me: People seemed too oblivious to his obvious mental illnesses. Maybe my general experiences are anecdotal, but most people in public tend to try to avoid or leave "crazy" people alone. Even Thomas Wayne, while understandably miffed from hearing about the Joker's visit to his home, seemed to lack any EQ to see the the son of his crazy former employee is also disturbed. I get that this was kind of the point of the movie, but it felt a bit hard to buy. What was Randall's deal? Did he set Joker up or did he actually give him the gun out of care? Just seemed unnecessary to lie and snitch on him to the boss to get him fired either way. Bruce already seemed a bit off when his big bro visited him. Who lets a stranger put his fingers in their mouth to force a smile? I kind of wish they didn't depict the Wayne murders. This version of them being out on the town while the city is blowing up in a riot actually makes Wayne seem a lot more irresponsible and lessens the traditional reasons for the Batman origin story. His parents getting killed via petty crime is a much richer motivation than his parents getting killed during a riot that's arguably of his father's own doing. I would've preferred if they mentioned their murder in a newspaper headline or radio background noise like that in the beginning. Anyway, these aren't major issues to me, just things that I thought about since watching the movie.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:53
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Did Thomas Wayne ever run for for political office in the comics or did they add that in this to get the  heat?
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Oct 9, 2019 21:55
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gary oldmans diary posted:In between him saying he's thinking of a joke and that the psychiatrist wouldn't get it is the clip of Bruce Wayne outside the theater next to his dead parents, suggesting directly that how he's affected Bruce is the joke he's thinking of. Which he would think is funny by itself, not to say he's aware he's planted the seeds of batman in any way. It's pretty much the same as the "knock knock" joke. The 'it was all in his head' theory is pretty shallow.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:57
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Steve2911 posted:I liked it. I do think there's a strain of shitbags who will be 'inspired' by it. The last decade of shitbags shooting people is a strong indicator of that. Actual disaffected nihilists and edgelords have been making fun of Joker for years. That's what the whole Gang Weed meme was originally about, "we live in a society" started as a joke where you took unironic Facebook memes with the Joker that say things like "We live in a society where football players get paid millions of dollars but teachers have to do fundraisers" and just crop off the bottom to make fun of how facile they (and the people who posting them in earnest) are. Pepes think that The Joker is normie poo poo which makes the public's idea of the movie triggering the libs and redpilling audiences even funnier to them, it's like the idea of KISS being an actual dangerous neonazi black metal band that is inspiring hate crimes. iamsosmrt posted:People seemed too oblivious to his obvious mental illnesses. Maybe my general experiences are anecdotal, but most people in public tend to try to avoid or leave "crazy" people alone. Even Thomas Wayne, while understandably miffed from hearing about the Joker's visit to his home, seemed to lack any EQ to see the the son of his crazy former employee is also disturbed. I get that this was kind of the point of the movie, but it felt a bit hard to buy. "Oh hey, you're that guy who gave my kid flowers and stuck his fingers in his mouth. What's up, how's it been, what a coincidence that I would run into you again here in the men's room all alone." Sleeveless fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 9, 2019 |
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Oct 9, 2019 22:01
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Isn't Wayne Enterprises in Batman Begins? HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Isn't Wayne Enterprises in Batman Begins? Yeah but Thomas is a doctor - he says he works at the hospital, not at Wayne Enterprises when asked. The company seems to be under board control until Lucius is brought out of the basement.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:30
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iamsosmrt posted:
He gave Arthur the gun out of small concern but also because hes the kind of idiot who only knows how to bond through Tough Alpha Male Stuff and it meant Arthur owed him back for taking it. When Arthur dropped the gun at the hospital his boss likely got a call, exclaimed loudly around the office about what a weird psycho he was, then Randall tried to get ahead of being blamed for it by saying that Arthur approached him about the gun rather than the other way around. massive spider fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 9, 2019 |
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Oct 9, 2019 22:48
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I like that Randall was the actual evil clown in Joker.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:52
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Either way I took the point to be how easy it is to get guns
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Oct 9, 2019 22:53
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I took it as just another clumsy redressing of the gun scene in Taxi Driver, except skewed to fit the movie’s narrative, much like the fictitious gangs of young day traders who prowl on unsuspecting citizens on the public transit which was a clumsy redressing of the train scene from Death Wish.
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Oct 10, 2019 00:10
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Steve2911 posted:No I'm saying they were bad scenes that added nothing to the movie other than to allow people to point at the screen and say 'I know this'. I poo poo you not, the person next to me said "That's Batman" out loud when Bruce showed up outside the gate.
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Oct 10, 2019 00:30
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ruddiger posted:I took it as just another clumsy redressing of the gun scene in Taxi Driver, except skewed to fit the movie’s narrative, much like the fictitious gangs of young day traders who prowl on unsuspecting citizens on the public transit which was a clumsy redressing of the train scene from Death Wish.
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Oct 10, 2019 01:07
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well why not posted:Yeah but Thomas is a doctor - he says he works at the hospital, not at Wayne Enterprises when asked. The company seems to be under board control until Lucius is brought out of the basement. Why'd he lie like that? Makes him seem untrustworthy.
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Oct 10, 2019 01:14
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im depressed lol posted:The 'it was all in his head' theory is pretty shallow. Is it? this movie seems like it goes so far out of it's way to show you not every event on screen is real, and the joker metatextually is so famous for his multi choice backstory. It seems extremely intentional that this movie is very obviously supposed to be unreliable. Like it feels like the film makers could not have gone more out of their way to beat into the audience that stuff on screen wasn't always real. It seems perfectly reasonable to take the plot in the same way the killing joke or the red hood stuff or any of the ways joker has gotten the scars, stuff that is correct and speaks to what his history was "like" without being fully real events.
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Oct 10, 2019 01:18
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Well... yeah. It's shallow in that every movie could be explained by "it was all a dream" even though there are other in-movie explanations that are internally consistent. It's an alt-universe joker that's probably just a 1-shot deal so there's nothing lost about Joker's mystique in telling his story. Going from the girl down the hall being a delusionally inserted by an insane character to saying the events of the film didn't really take place is like saying the buildings didn't blow up at the end of Fight Club.
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Oct 10, 2019 01:30
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I'm pretty torn on this movie. Joaquin was fantastic, the sound design and cinematography were pretty great, and a lot of the character study driven stuff was well done, but the bigger picture plot stuff (Batman universe building + social issues) were really hamfisted and poorly done, to the point of really pulling down the movie from about halfway on. I didn't believe the character fit into either the super villain or movement figurehead the plot was pushing him towards. I'm gonna assume these shortcomings are Phillips' fault because he's a dumb dick and this film/cast/crew deserved a better director.
Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 02:36
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The movie definitely left you to assume in highsight that there must have been more than what was shown to bring the common man from general anti-rich sentiment to violent action. I'm not sure if the social uprising part of the story would be better served by more info of actions taken by a brazen upper class than the info of social service cuts and Thomas Wayne's statements or a later scene just showing that ordinary people were absolutely pissed off by Wayne calling them clowns. Entitled wealthy people beating up Arthur is part of the story showing upper class elitism, but the regular people weren't aware of it. e: In hindsight because the rioting was very enjoyable while watching. gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 03:01
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gary oldmans diary posted:The movie definitely left you to assume in highsight that there must have been more than what was shown to bring the common man from general anti-rich sentiment to violent action. I remember there's a scene in the trailers where Arthur is being kicked out and thrown down the stairs of the theater and it got cut out, by the looks of it. Unless I imagined it all or was confusing it with something else lol. I guess the idea for that scene was that such action would only throw more fuel at the angry protesters?
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Oct 10, 2019 04:00
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Desperado Bones posted:I remember there's a scene in the trailers where Arthur is being kicked out and thrown down the stairs of the theater and it got cut out, by the looks of it. Unless I imagined it all or was confusing it with something else lol. I guess the idea for that scene was that such action would only throw more fuel at the angry protesters? yeah looks like that was cut. he is rolling down the stairs backwards towards the protestors
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Oct 10, 2019 04:05
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I had hoped the man strapped to the gurney and freaking out in the trailer was part of the regular day-to-day horror he experiences when visiting his psychologist. But it's part of visiting Arkham which he only did once before he went full Joker.Desperado Bones posted:I remember there's a scene in the trailers where Arthur is being kicked out and thrown down the stairs of the theater and it got cut out, by the looks of it. Unless I imagined it all or was confusing it with something else lol. I guess the idea for that scene was that such action would only throw more fuel at the angry protesters? e: Besides the other individual inciter, Thomas Wayne. gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 04:34
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gary oldmans diary posted:I had hoped the man strapped to the gurney and freaking out in the trailer was part of the regular day-to-day horror he experiences when visiting his psychologist. But it's part of visiting Arkham which he only did once before he went full Joker. The movie was so close to be this: 
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Oct 10, 2019 04:47
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iamsosmrt posted:
I'm not sure about this, he's pretty isolated from everyone outside of the main characters in the films. Anyone he spends time around distrusts him quickly - his coworkers do not like him and his boss thinks he's a weirdo. His neighbour doesn't even recognise him. That kinda tracks to me. How much time does it take before you realise someone is mentally ill? How long would you be OK with someone who's "weird" before you become concerned? Alfred is smart enough to ward him off, but Thomas Wayne has rich people "Bad Things Don't Happen Directly To Me' syndrome.
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Oct 10, 2019 05:58
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I'm surprised people didn't work out the girlfriend bit right away - as soon as she called him Arthur at the door I knew it'd be fake because how would she have learned his name, or why wouldn't he ask? I mean, beyond the idea that 'I saw you following me' somehow leads to a good place and not a bad one. I just couldn't get Todd Philips talking about woke culture out of my head when I saw the film. Does he think the car park analogy is good? Does he enjoy laughing at the dwarf? I liked Phoenix's performance and he reminded me a bit of how he acted in The Master but I don't think I enjoyed the film. I know people have said "it's a dream" is a poo poo reading of the end but that's all I can see. Them calling him after really hardcore making fun of him in the show feels off already but the whole sequence and him not maniacally laughing even once just made it feel absolutely fake to me.
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Oct 10, 2019 10:19
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Taear posted:I'm surprised people didn't work out the girlfriend bit right away - as soon as she called him Arthur at the door I knew it'd be fake because how would she have learned his name, or why wouldn't he ask? I mean, beyond the idea that 'I saw you following me' somehow leads to a good place and not a bad one. Yeah after the fantasy sequence about being on the show I assumed anything good in his life was in his head. I fully expected him to have actually killed her after the subway murders and for her rotting body to have still been there when he returned later. Was the movie implying that he killed her at the end or did he just leave peacefully?
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Oct 10, 2019 10:23
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JOHN SKELETON posted:
Did not notice at the time but good observation and did he not report that to the cops? Him I guess being afraid the little person not giving notice to the cops could be why, but nothing being mentioned as how it was not an issue for his TV appearance bothered me. Both are solved though if the comedic beat was quickly blindsided by him killing the dude just suddenly and coldly.
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Oct 10, 2019 11:28
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:Did not notice at the time but good observation and did he not report that to the cops? Him I guess being afraid the little person not giving notice to the cops could be why, but nothing being mentioned as how it was not an issue for his TV appearance bothered me. Both are solved though if the comedic beat was quickly blindsided by him killing the dude just suddenly and coldly. Like everything in the film the answer here is an easy "did it really happen?"
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Oct 10, 2019 11:33
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Annabel Pee posted:Yeah I never understood why everyone always goes on about Hangover having a gay slur thats supposed to be funny. I haven't watched the film in years but I'm pretty sure the joke is the main guy embarrassing the others by being a piece of poo poo right. No, it's just a funny scene.
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Oct 10, 2019 12:05
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am0kgonzo posted:No, it's just a funny scene. It’s funny because he’s a piece of poo poo in a funny. It’s not either or. It’s both.
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Oct 10, 2019 12:10
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It to me had a background plot, which could have been done better imo, that was not some socialist or political argument like people keep saying but literally about how people are just projecting their political fears or frustration on loving anything remotely possible including murders with no indication at all as motivated by income or by someone struggling. He literally says on television, which I suppose was already after the riot happened but if meant to be significant sort of has to mean it was watched by people beyond the protest, that no not about that at all. To anyone not in the group of clown mask rioters holding him up as their revolution of just murder savior, it's a dude who loving flat said specifically it's not about any of that and what is was about. So it ends with these people holding up an icon destroying everything around them, with no meaning or even basis in what they are projecting their feelings or belief on (which personally that revolution looked undeniably not ending with a better Gotham but even if so, is exalting what is just their perception and trigger for what they already feel). It did not even feel like calling out uh the left or socialists or whoever to me, since while that violence is bad it clearly showed that people are struggling. Times are hard with a real issue shown by Thomas Wayne the most hack written strawman wealthy person to ever hate the poor for being poor and in pain for reasons. It bothered me beyond that hey this plot isn't well connected or carrying consistently, since him being a dick is fine given Gotham is usually shown as lovely due to corruption with some takes also showing how the people trying to change that like Thomas Wayne died or left long ago. Him as failing because he sucked yet clearly bigly thought he was the only one who could save Gotham is a different idea which is cool. He just did not talk like people or how even the "poor are lovely and anyone upset about that is lovely" people talk, which I need to find a quote because it's really just awkwardly fitting in the clown comment. Still, one other aspect to remember is that those rich guys were dicks and I forget if killing them wasn't needed self-defense or dudes just really beating the poo poo out of him, but no one in the movie actually know that and only celebrated that three rich men died without any sign of reason they deserved or needed to. It very clearly to me showed the insanity of our time caused by actual abuse we just turn blind eyes to or the real hardships just pushing us crazier out here getting more and more heated until we see it in everything and snap. Hysteria to the movie about the white violent male incel inspirational life changing movie sort of added to this. Yes, that can be seen to a degree but him feeling victimized is given a dozens reasons, zero connected to a sense that him being white or the downturn of his city was caused by the things that would have been. He does not pursue sex, mention it, show interest in it, or even have a well written plot about the fake girlfriend with any sexual aspect included. Connection was the most desperately wanted thing by him I could see implied, but they had in his mind really a physically non-intimate way around each other. When she vanishes in a weak twist that doesn't even feel like that much of a motivating factor for someone already snapping, he isn't virgin rage or ever brings up how she doesn't want him in his why I did this speech. Inspiring a shooting? Sure, I can understand fears due to Aurora or the subject and Taxi Driver was the clear inspiration even if the shooting that inspired seems more complicated than Taxi Driver being dangerous. Incels aren't all mentally ill though I assume that contributes to a lot of them, and like the movie says, people glossed over the mentally ill part straight to seeing incel threat or clear socialist class uprising when that wasn't his story even if all happening. "Better the blind man who pisses out the window than the joker who told him it was a urinal. Know who the joker is? It's everybody." is a line that I think was important, since just everyone is seeing their hero the incel/gamer/Robespierre and telling it enough that anyone ignorant who has no reason/ability to doubt them is better than those causing a dude to get piss not in the piss place. So yeah poorly done and my view from watching, which I'm not claiming is right as how the director intended or that it is the only view. This won't matter but to be clear, this is how I took the film's view but I'm trying not to personal political beliefs or judgement, just observation that things getting escalated and heated up. "Everybody just yells and screams at each other. Nobody's civil anymore. Nobody thinks what it's like to be the other guy." "I killed those guys because they were awful. Everybody is awful these days. It's enough to make anyone crazy." Oh god I made a long post about a polarizing movie. Bottom text.
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Oct 10, 2019 12:26
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I rewatched The Hangover a few months ago because it was the tenth anniversary of the film's release and in a vacuum the slurs and gay panic stuff in it were really noticeable and bad by today's standards but by and large felt like were just part of the era it was made in, the final death throes of that decade's lovely attitudes towards LGBTQ+ people; it's always a little shocking when you like look up old Daily Show clips and Jon Stewart is making jokes like "all rise for the honorable Justice Chick With Dick" to make fun of the idea of a trans person being a politician, our cultural attitude and awareness has changed to radically since then. It's only when you're viewing it through the lens of Phillips' recent public remarks about how Political Correctness Gone Mad has killed comedy and rendered him a pariah for daring to make people laugh that it becomes malicious and asinine, like he thinks himself some sort of warrior poet speaking unpleasant truths to power and society for the type of dumbass lowest common demoniator comedy where you show a fat guy in a speedo and somebody quips "OK, that's just wrong". I can't seem to find it online but there was a television commercial for his 2003 Will Ferrel movie Old School that showed off a bunch of negative reviews from critics and then went "...but who cares, Old School is the #1 movie in America!", his entire career has always been tinged with this obnoxious unwarranted self-importance about sticking it to the stuffy elites and giving audiences what they really want. Also to me the most offensive thing about The Hangover was what a naked advertisement it was for Las Vegas, like an entire generation of dudebros genuinely believed they could totally hack the system and become millionaires because Zach Galifianakis made a funny face and equations floated in front of his head and then he got rich. Sleeveless fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 12:38
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well why not posted:I'm not sure about this, he's pretty isolated from everyone outside of the main characters in the films. Anyone he spends time around distrusts him quickly - his coworkers do not like him and his boss thinks he's a weirdo. His neighbour doesn't even recognise him. That kinda tracks to me. How much time does it take before you realise someone is mentally ill? How long would you be OK with someone who's "weird" before you become concerned? In a vacuum, you're right, but he gives off a lot of obvious "stay away" and "try to be civil to not provoke or offend" tells that strangers tend to pick up on. Phoenix was not very subtle throughout the movie, or least that's how I saw it. For instance, the mom and kid on the bus, as soon as his crazy laughter started and never stopped, I wouldnt think they'd need a card to see that he's got a problem. Perhaps the tells aren't as obvious as I think. The distrust stuff, is fine, but it really goes along the lines of people assuming he's an average rear end in a top hat/creep and less of a mentally ill person. Anyway, I get that there's a theme of him trying to act normal in spite of his illness, but I guess for me the portrayal was a bit too strong for me to believe the reactions.
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Oct 10, 2019 13:41
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Bear in mind that the film is set in the 70s or 80s. Even now people are pretty ignorant about mental health.
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Oct 10, 2019 13:46
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