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Alchenar posted:It's something Arkane did again with Prey though - if you use the cool alien powers they dangle in front of you then you get the bad ending. No you don't? Using powers doesn't affect your ending at all.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:00
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Alchenar posted:It's something Arkane did again with Prey though - if you use the cool alien powers they dangle in front of you then you get the bad ending. Alien powers have nothing to do with your ending, it’s all based on how you handle certain decisions in the game. They’re testing to see if you’ve learned empathy or not, it has nothing to do with if you go for typhon powers.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:00
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Alchenar posted:It's something Arkane did again with Prey though - if you use the cool alien powers they dangle in front of you then you get the bad ending. I do get that this is inconsistent with the view of games I used earlier - the cutscene I get after I finish playing shouldn't stop me playing in the way that gives me the most fun, but knowing the game is wagging its finger at you for wanting to do something cool is something I think a lot of people view as an unforced error. The ending of Prey has absolutely nothing to do with your use of Typhon powers. It changes a single line of dialogue.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:00
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Raygereio posted:I blame Dishonered's half-baked morality system for that. Yeah, a non-lethal run is basically a lovely challenge-mode where you're forcing yourself not to use and have fun with all the various tools the game offers you. I hate playing as a bad guy in my murder simulator.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:05
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*jams a knife all the way through a guards brain, tosses the body aside*
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Oct 13, 2019 23:16
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Dishonored's morality system owns and people complaining about it is part of why AAA video games will forever be super mediocre and generic in terms of writing and medium/player interaction. You actually have to go out to earn your "you were the true monster all along" storyline unlike every other game that pompously railroads you into it, eg every Ubisoft Far Cry and more than quite a few post-2012 games no one remembers.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:19
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GUI posted:Dishonored's morality system owns and people complaining about it is part of why AAA video games will forever be super mediocre and generic in terms of writing and medium/player interaction. You actually have to go out to earn your "you were the true monster all along" storyline unlike every other game that pompously railroads you into it, eg every Ubisoft Far Cry and more than quite a few post-2012 games no one remembers. Nah it's bad. Rule 1 of video games is that the PC should never do something cool in a cutscene the player can't do when controlling them, rule 2 is that if you are going to offer freedom then you can't snatch away that offer by judging the player for using it. Unexpected bad ending is particularly obnoxious to the player because most people are only going to play your game once. Either do what Witcher does and make story choices drive the gameplay (rather than vice versa), or do what Splinter Cell Blacklist does and say 'hey there are three gamestyles and they're equally valid and you know what if you completely commit to one then we'll give you a badge for it!'.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:47
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Deus Ex talk: the prison break DLC was pretty good for MD. Especially if you replay it without taking augs or such.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:47
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Alchenar posted:Nah it's bad. Rule 1 of video games is that the PC should never do something cool in a cutscene the player can't do when controlling them, rule 2 is that if you are going to offer freedom then you can't snatch away that offer by judging the player for using it. Unexpected bad ending is particularly obnoxious to the player because most people are only going to play your game once. that's what dishonoured does though. If you choose to murder people you get a lot more people to murder, and you end up in a land of murder. I dunno, I don't really understand why people get so angry about being 'judged' by a game, it's not your mum. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 13, 2019 23:52
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sebmojo posted:that's what dishonoured does though. Same person who thought preys ending was based on using typhon powers so I think they may have played alternate reality versions of these games.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:56
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I didnt mind the low Chaos approach to dishonored at all- as people say the high Chaos ”world sucks” ending does fit thematically better to the world anyway So I feel that having to actually fight to get the good ending was nice. What did kinda skew it though was that some If the ”non-lethal” endings for the assassination seemed to be worse than death- I recall that one noblewoman the ”not evil” ending was shipping her against her will to be a sex slave for a weird creeper.
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Oct 14, 2019 00:01
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I thought that aspect kinda worked in its favour and was quite a darkly funny and a little bit meta subversion of the player's expectations for what a non-lethal run should entail
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Oct 14, 2019 01:01
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Alchenar posted:Nah it's bad. Rule 1 of video games is that the PC should never do something cool in a cutscene the player can't do when controlling them, rule 2 is that if you are going to offer freedom then you can't snatch away that offer by judging the player for using it. Unexpected bad ending is particularly obnoxious to the player because most people are only going to play your game once. "No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.” Butterfly Valley posted:I thought that kinda worked in its favour and was quite a darkly funny and a little bit meta subversion of the player's expectations for what a non-lethal run should entail It is low chaos, after all, not maximum morality. Most of the non-lethals are fates worse than death, but ones that the system can shrug off, unlike, well, prominent people being brutally murdered by an unknown culprit. (On that note, I'm curious if the chaos levels are influenced less by some death methods than others. The first target has a ton of "What a horrible mistake accident!" kills available that wouldn't draw the same attention as neck stabbing.) chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 01:01
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Valtonen posted:I didnt mind the low Chaos approach to dishonored at all- as people say the high Chaos ”world sucks” ending does fit thematically better to the world anyway So I feel that having to actually fight to get the good ending was nice. What did kinda skew it though was that some If the ”non-lethal” endings for the assassination seemed to be worse than death- I recall that one noblewoman the ”not evil” ending was shipping her against her will to be a sex slave for a weird creeper. Yeah, and the people that owned slave mines got their tongues cut out and sold to their own property. It was a good dillema, where death was basically a mercy. Beats the usual lethal/non lethal split. Hell, the first target even turns up as a weeper if you spare him.
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Oct 14, 2019 01:04
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Butterfly Valley posted:I thought that aspect kinda worked in its favour and was quite a darkly funny and a little bit meta subversion of the player's expectations for what a non-lethal run should entail Agreed.
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Oct 14, 2019 01:06
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The problem with Arcane's morality system is that it's... Arcane. The game straight out tells you that you shouldn't be a dick, you're told that your actions are evaluated but you don't know the threshold is so high. The first playthrough I've finished with just a few deaths, mostly accidental or ones I didn't notice, I imagine vast amount of people defaulted into that behavior cause they knew about those different ending. Dishonored 2 is of course much more varied and you can non-lethally fight people, and many abilities are easier to use for non-lethal results. In D1 you probably only use blink, rat possession and bend time if you're a pacifist. This approach also made me play newer Deus Ex games in a wrong way: especially Mankind Divided doesn't seem to actually care about your bloody hands which I've discovered halfway through the game, and the final mission subverts it nicely by giving you a bonus if you're capable of stealth non-lethal approach. And when I've played Prey I didn't use alien nanomods at all cause it was heavily implied those are bad for you. The fame of those games overvalues pacifist approach which really should be considered as a niche-achievement run in the same way as ghost achievement or no magic, or no levelups etc. Kinda like many RPGs like Fallout New Vegas are praised for the fact that you can kill anyone while in reality it doesn't affect playing those games that much, just showing that developers care about details.
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Oct 14, 2019 09:22
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the chaos system and the typhon corruption thing would be way better if they never told you about them so they didn't feel like something that you're supposed to game for an optimal result. the games already do a really good job of explaining the consequences of your actions within the lore. its probably a marketing thing though i guess
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Oct 14, 2019 09:33
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Alchenar posted:Nah it's bad. Rule 1 of video games is that the PC should never do something cool in a cutscene the player can't do when controlling them, rule 2 is that if you are going to offer freedom then you can't snatch away that offer by judging the player for using it. Unexpected bad ending is particularly obnoxious to the player because most people are only going to play your game once. "So what if I bully, steal and murder every time I can, it's rude of KOTOR to make my jedi turn to the dark side."
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Oct 14, 2019 09:38
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Farm Frenzy posted:the chaos system and the typhon corruption thing would be way better if they never told you about them so they didn't feel like something that you're supposed to game for an optimal result. the games already do a really good job of explaining the consequences of your actions within the lore. its probably a marketing thing though i guess It's not 1997 anymore, you'd knew about it anyway. The first thing people mention when they talk about Dishonored is the morality system probably. They had an opportunity to tell you about it without overblowing it but they were deliberately vague so that you won't game the system. And turns out that if you tell me my actions will have consequences I'll become a beatnik coward.
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Oct 14, 2019 09:44
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The only consequences of using too much typhon powers in Prey is that turrets will shoot you on sight and a single line of dialogue in the ending which is irrelevant to the morality or empathy of your actions. I think people are heavily over thinking it. They're over thinking Dishonored's morality system too but in fairness that one is the games fault for making such a big deal over it when the threshold is so high.
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Oct 14, 2019 09:55
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Cat Mattress posted:"So what if I bully, steal and murder every time I can, it's rude of KOTOR to make my jedi turn to the dark side." This is a dumbass post. Star Wars is explicitly about manichaean good vs. evil. Dishonored is explicitly about making tough choices in the pursuit of morally compromised justice (how far will you go to save your daughter and avenge yourself?). The chaos system being used to determine your ending (instead of just how many guards/monsters there are, that part is fine) is bad because it's stupid black and white D&D morality in a game where it doesn't belong. "You didn't murder an arbitrary number of people, so congratulations, you live happily ever after with your daughter and she cures the plague and everyone loves her!" sucks as an ending and undermines the game's themes. Fortunately, Prey doesn't have this problem at all. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 10:36
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I'm a good person, I don't kill women, I send them into the captivity of obsessed maniac. But a little better view of that chaos system is that you do affect the world, both directly and indirectly. Leaving bodies around means fewer guards keep the order and more food for rats spreading the plague. You're also connected to Outsider through some magical bounds and it means that the town as a whole is affected by your violent outbursts metaphysically (and in case of Daud his gang and Corvo are affected). In the last level, the nature itself depends on your mood. What I mean t say is you still have grand supernatural morality influencing the world. It's very similar to Star Wars in that regard.
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Oct 14, 2019 10:43
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Cat Mattress posted:"So what if I bully, steal and murder every time I can, it's rude of KOTOR to make my jedi turn to the dark side."
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Oct 14, 2019 10:50
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sebmojo posted:I dunno, I don't really understand why people get so angry about being 'judged' by a game, it's not your mum.  It's shorthand for "I don't like this system".I think the way Dishonered's morality system was implemented (and probably even as a concept) was poo poo. What does Dishonered want to get across? That killing someone - no matter the justification - is bad? Okay, I think we can all get behind that. But what's the alternative the game presents? Branding a person so they're shunned by society. Selling someone into brutal slavery. Condemning a woman to being a sex toy. According to the game's morality system, these options are somehow "right" because they're part of low-chaos which results in the setting being less of shithole and Emily becoming a little angel. It takes morally questionably, grey/gray concepts and proceeds to present them in stark good/evil. Which resulted in a story that made no sense if you examine it critically. It also affected gameplay in an annoying way in that all the cool things that you can do involved killing people. But at the same time, the morality system explicitly judges that as wrong. So you kind of end looking at the game going "What do you want from me?" and the game just shrugs back at you because it has nothing else to offer. If the stealth & non-lethal playstyle was more developed and was given more options and tools to mess around with so not being a murder-happy-lunatic would feel like a valid choice, i think there would have much less bitching about this aspect of Dishonored. GUI posted:Dishonored's morality system owns and people complaining about it is part of why AAA video games will forever be super mediocre and generic in terms of writing and medium/player interaction.  " This is possibly the dumbest take here. If you want games as a medium to be taken serious for its writing, then you need to accept that that writing can be criticized.Also what was disliked about it is not the morality system exists, but that the way it was implemented was viewed as poo poo. To move slightly back to the thread topic: Mankind Divided's story is kind of dumb. That doesn't mean you can't have a game that tries to tackle discrimination or policy brutality as themes. It just means that using the augmentations from DX's setting as a vehicle for those themes was not the best of ideas..
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Oct 14, 2019 11:14
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Video games can be well written, but probably not AAA stuff.
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Oct 14, 2019 11:51
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ilitarist posted:It's not 1997 anymore, you'd knew about it anyway. The first thing people mention when they talk about Dishonored is the morality system probably. They had an opportunity to tell you about it without overblowing it but they were deliberately vague so that you won't game the system. And turns out that if you tell me my actions will have consequences I'll become a beatnik coward. i think the combination of vague description while still explicitly telling you about the system hurt it in the end. dishonoured doesn't really change based on your decisions much more than the original deus ex but it feels less mysterious and reactive and i think kinda locks you in more
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Oct 14, 2019 12:17
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Yeah, that's the point I'm making. Like because of this vagueness people talk about it being black & white. But in reality even if you kill every target you still end up good unless you're killing a lot more. So it's more like grey and black. You become feared maniac not when you chose to kill people instead of enslaving/branding people but when you murder dozens of people and do a lot of others acts of evil that put you well beyond good and evil.
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Oct 14, 2019 12:28
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I'm pretty sure you can brutally murder every target and still get low chaos, it's mostly affected by your guard and civilian bodycount
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Oct 14, 2019 13:19
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Am I the only one who actually liked that the low-chaos ending made people happy in dishonored? I felt that after slogging through hours Upon hours of misery and desperation that is Dunwall being able to ensure after all the hard work corvo did the city became a better place to live and there was some sunshine and ponies? Because I feel it was a Well-earned happy ending.
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Oct 14, 2019 13:48
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Raygereio posted:Lots of wrong words Except as has already been mentioned you can kill every single target and still be well within the threshold for a low chaos ending, which makes plenty of sense thematically within the game. There's a very deliberate distinction made between some murder of those people who 'deserve' it, and indulging in a killing spree. And as I previously said, the sometimes sadistically harsh alternative consequences you'd mete out in place of simple murders were obviously designed to subvert the whole expectations of the player, showing that there are no black and white options and it caused me a whole lot more reflection than if I'd just been able to breeze through the game bonking people on the head guilt free.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:06
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Lemon-Lime posted:"You didn't murder an arbitrary number of people, so congratulations, you live happily ever after with your daughter and she cures the plague and everyone loves her!" sucks as an ending and undermines the game's themes. This part at least makes sense to me. Corvo is Emily's father, and is the sole person responsible for raising her. If the Corvo you play is the kind of person who hacks down every guard on his way to a target, it makes sense that he'd raise a brutal daughter, compared to if he's the kind of person who will evade everyone but the target. As far as Prey goes, I think the intention with Typhon mods is just to let you know when the turrets and operators are going to turn hostile, but almost everyone seems to have taken it to mean something much deeper about the ending. It's too bad really, a lot of people missed out on cool game stuff because of a single line of dialogue and an indicator that machines wouldn't like you, assuming that it would have major consequences when it didn't. I think that's a design misstep too, but a different sort of one.
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Oct 14, 2019 20:05
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I finished my Dishonoured replay last night and I think it still holds up really well. In fact I stayed up way too late. I figured I'd finish up the last time at the Hound's Tooth and go to bed, but ended up just finishing the game.
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Oct 14, 2019 20:20
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So I'm making a mod for Deus Ex. It's got a bunch of changes to the mechanics. It started out as just trying to make melee weapon attack speed increase with skill level and it's kind of feature-crept into what it is today from there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELivsnEPvvk Here's some of the features:
Anyway it's a work in progress but maybe some goons are interested. No clue if it plays nice with Shifter or Biomod or Revision or whatever else. E: Repo link: https://github.com/butterwagon69/NerdMod Butterwagon fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 15, 2019 05:21
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Diggus Bickus posted:So I'm making a mod for Deus Ex. I'd really like to playtest this, but I'm working 7/7 these days so I'm not sure if I would be much help.
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Oct 15, 2019 21:46
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Oct 16, 2019 00:36
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JustJeff88 posted:I'd really like to playtest this, but I'm working 7/7 these days so I'm not sure if I would be much help. I added a link to the repo to my previous post. I just made it for fun but I thought it might be worth sharing. It's (probably) playable if you want to try it out!
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Oct 16, 2019 02:13
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JustJeff88 posted:I'd really like to playtest this, but I'm working 7/7 these days so I'm not sure if I would be much help. This looks good. Maybe I'll try it. Can I talk about Mankind Divided here? My short review: When poo poo hit the fan, second time in Prague, I was really on board. Some side missions are really great. When the city was under martial law, I got hit with nostalgia. Likewise when I had it too many praxis points, or skill points, in the end, a problem no game in the series solved. The plot really picks up then. The last mission is fantastic and the boss fight, too. And then... it ends. I need a conclusion 
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Oct 17, 2019 21:22
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Sorry, double post.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:23
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What's not concluded? It's just the stakes of the story weren't as high as they usually are. I find it refreshing and more suitable for a cyberpunk/noir story. No zombie apocalypse prevention this time. Also try prison expansion. It's good.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:14
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ilitarist posted:What's not concluded? It's just the stakes of the story weren't as high as they usually are. I find it refreshing and more suitable for a cyberpunk/noir story. No zombie apocalypse prevention this time. are you joking
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Oct 17, 2019 22:31
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