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It's just cis people deciding what non-cis people want without actually asking them, basically.
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Oct 14, 2019 11:59
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Hot take: abolish all gendered pronouns imo. There’s no reason why we encode someone’s gender identity in grammar apart from tradition, and that’s the same tradition that inflicted the lie of binary gender on us in the first place so gently caress tradition. Like imagine if we had different pronouns based on some other intrinsic attribute like skin color or sexual orientation or disability. That would obviously be bullshit, right? Tangential coding horror: whatever bug it is in Amazon’s code that means my gender (as declared years ago when I first signed up) is the only thing it seems to remember about me. Love to sign into a site and be greeted with a message saying “Hi, Mr”
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Oct 14, 2019 13:20
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Stackoverflow has never been a good place for any sort of community building nor discussion in the first place and I am unsurprised by whatever garbage situation they find themselves into
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Oct 14, 2019 13:51
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Soricidus posted:Hot take: abolish all gendered pronouns imo. There’s no reason why we encode someone’s gender identity in grammar apart from tradition, and that’s the same tradition that inflicted the lie of binary gender on us in the first place so gently caress tradition. COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: Really if you think about it, all human interaction could and ought to be replaced with a simple binary protocol. It would be a lot more efficient.
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Oct 14, 2019 14:00
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Soricidus posted:Hot take: abolish all gendered pronouns imo. There’s no reason why we encode someone’s gender identity in grammar apart from tradition, and that’s the same tradition that inflicted the lie of binary gender on us in the first place so gently caress tradition. In non-Spanish countries in South/Central America (think Argentina), the pronoun "voseo" was considered the polite form of "you," and used as such as formal writing in the 1600's - you can think of it as the singular form of vosotros (polite plural you, very rarely used.) Over time this pronoun morphed into the "familiar you" - while people from Spain/Mexico will use "tu" as the "informal you", people from Argentina/Central America will use "vos" as the "familiar you." Recently, a friend had a huge argument with her cousin because they, being from Guatemala, persisted in using "vos" as the "familiar you" instead of "tu" - which is fine, because Guatemalan people don't use tu, they use vos. Ironically, my friend is Guatemalan, but learned Mexican Spanish because they grew up in the US, and perceived vos as an insult, or somehow less formal than tu (which is intended to be informal as well.) As you can imagine, my lesson on the etymology of Spanish pronouns was not appreciated, and I got punched for explaining it.
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Oct 14, 2019 14:39
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I have to say that as someone whose native language is actually gendered, English speakers losing their mind about singular they is great.
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Oct 14, 2019 14:40
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:It's just cis people deciding what non-cis people want without actually asking them, basically.
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Oct 14, 2019 14:44
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Xarn posted:I have to say that as someone whose native language is actually gendered, English speakers losing their mind about singular they is great. Imagine a programming language with something as arbitrary as grammatical gender. Your variable name ends in -a, so it must be 1st declension feminine, so method names must be suffixed with -a as well... Unless the name is in a list of foreign names, in which case they don't.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:08
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Is that just async?
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Oct 14, 2019 15:20
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That's actually @ and $ in Perl
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Oct 14, 2019 15:27
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Part of the dumbness here is that Stack Overflow is a lovely mix between official technical writing and a community. I can understand Monica wanting to not use pronouns when writing an answer meant for a large audience mostly coming from Google. It's just a weird tone to write for. Singular they makes it way easier though and Monica is indeed dumb for not adopting it.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:28
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rjmccall posted:I can confirm that Monica is a skilled enough writer to make this feel natural. I can also confirm that Monica has strong feelings about singular “they”, and I fondly remember arguing with her about it with all the standard arguments and getting nowhere. Moderating a forum full of people isn't in quite the same skillhouse as technical writing.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:18
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fritz posted:Moderating a forum full of people isn't in quite the same skillhouse as technical writing. Ain't that the truth
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Oct 14, 2019 16:24
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I've never understood how linguistic prescriptivists say that singular they is unnatural and incorrect grammar, when Shakespeare and Merriam-Webster (presumably the top of the pyramid for prescriptivists) both use and acknowledge it. They're like, "the rules say you can't do that! my own, lovely, imagined rules!"
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Oct 14, 2019 16:26
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Hammerite posted:COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: Really if you think about it, all human interaction could and ought to be replaced with a simple binary protocol. It would be a lot more efficient. The general tendency - in English at least - has been for grammar to get simpler over time. Like we don’t bother to distinguish thou and you any more in English. We gave up on grammatical gender for pretty much everything but pronouns about a millennium ago. We’ve basically lost distinctions between things like “might” and “may” because hey turns out nobody really cares and it’s fine. Hell, there’s even precedent for simplifying social things. You used to have to know everybody’s preferred title based on their gender, level of education, marital status, social class, history of military/religious service, etc. Now we just use first names for pretty much everyone (outside a restricted set of formal contexts) and it’s a good and cool improvement. So simplifying pronouns isn’t a beep-boop-how-does-human-work thing, it’s a logical extension of a long-term linguistic and indeed social trend that would also serve the useful purpose of reducing the opportunities for misgendering. Also I’d like a cheeseburger with large fries
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Oct 14, 2019 16:28
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fritz posted:Moderating a forum full of people isn't in quite the same skillhouse as technical writing. I didn’t mean to imply that it was? I have no idea whether she was a good moderator, just that she‘s a good writer and that she was always very conscientious about what she perceives as her responsibilities.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:51
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rjmccall posted:As someone who’s been using and moderating a Discourse forum for a couple years now, I have to say that it’s pretty good. My main complaint is that there’s a lot of implicit behavior that I didn’t realize was there, like the user ranks and the automatic promotion, and it’s already caused some amount of annoyance and drama. For example, somebody got demoted because they didn’t read a sufficient number of threads in the last quarter, and they whined to me about it; and somebody else keeps hiding threads which belong on a different forum (which apparently you can do just as a normal user if you’re senior enough) but not telling the poster to actually take it to that forum even after I asked him just to include some boilerplate response. also i just want to laugh at this and say that all the gamification stuff is idiotic and that apparently they made a worse product than the Something Awful Forums
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Oct 14, 2019 17:15
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"this person posts a lot so they should be able to hide other people's posts, oh our community is ruled by someone who posted a lot how on earth did this haaaaappeeeeennnn---
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Oct 14, 2019 17:16
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Imagine if mod powers here were based on post count lol
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Oct 14, 2019 17:22
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No Mods no Masters
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Oct 14, 2019 17:23
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after posting fifty times a day for 3 years in the monkeycheese random Off-Topic board of this Transformers fansite, I am now ready to stage a Posting Coup and enforce my radical views vis-a-vis the secret love between Optimus Prime and Megatron
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Oct 14, 2019 17:34
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Hammerite posted:after posting fifty times a day for 3 years in the monkeycheese random Off-Topic board of this Transformers fansite, I am now ready to stage a Posting Coup and enforce my radical views vis-a-vis the secret love between Optimus Prime and Megatron hmm, youre making me think this might actually be a good idea
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Oct 14, 2019 17:41
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I’ve only been on one Discourse forum and it seemed alright but the gamification stuff just feels unnecessary and infantilizing. “Congratulations!!! You just replied to a topic!!!” “Way to go, you just viewed a thread!!!!" I guess it’s supposed to be using psychology to make the forum addicting or something, but it really translates to you having to constantly open your notifications and see what pointless badge you just “earned.” More annoying than anything else. Speaking of, is “gamification” still a word people use? I couldn’t wait for it to die out since it first became a thing.
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Oct 14, 2019 17:57
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Yeah, as much as it's occasionally useful, the gamification overall is something I wish just wasn't there. Or really, I'd be happy if the exact same mechanisms existed behind the scenes but had no automatic effect except to make recommendations.
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Oct 14, 2019 17:59
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the best part of atwood's visit was him latching onto forums user Victor as the sole voice of reason amongst a bunch of nay-sayers
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Oct 14, 2019 18:06
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JawnV6 posted:the best part of atwood's visit was him latching onto forums user Victor as the sole voice of reason amongst a bunch of nay-sayers oh my god
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Oct 14, 2019 18:11
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maybe he had a high post count
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Oct 14, 2019 18:13
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Athas posted:English is such a mess of a language that I don't really understand why people care about the finer points of its grammar. If someone says to use singular "they" on their platform, then just do so. Does English even have an organisation somewhere to normatively define it, like most European languages do? Given the sheer number of dialects, I doubt so. You're correct, but most people educated in the US learn some rules that are somewhat archaic and probably never matched the way most speakers use the language, but you're supposed to use them in formal writing. Turns out most writing on the internet is informal, though.
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Oct 14, 2019 19:45
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JawnV6 posted:the best part of atwood's visit was him latching onto forums user Victor as the sole voice of reason amongst a bunch of nay-sayers Agreed, I vaguely remembered that thread and was glad to re-read it. Oh Victor 
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Oct 14, 2019 20:24
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Munkeymon posted:You're correct, but most people educated in the US learn some rules that are somewhat archaic and probably never matched the way most speakers use the language, but you're supposed to use them in formal writing. Turns out most writing on the internet is informal, though. English isn't too bad. *Cough* French literary verb forms *cough*
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Oct 14, 2019 21:00
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Now I'm trying to think of what actually would be a nice way to improve forum software. Like, all the various styles have some strengths and some weaknesses. I think for Q&A a mix between SO and Reddit would be the sweet spot. SO works for purely factual questions with a right answer but tends to break down where reasonable disagreement comes in because you can't really have a discussion very easily. The only ways to remedy it is hashing it out in the comments and turning your post into an essay weighing all the alternatives, or a bunch of different upvoted answers that sort of vaguely launch off each other but never directly mention each other because it's a bad fit for the format. SO style isn't foolproof though, it's materially the same as Quora and Yahoo Answers, it's the userbase and culture around acceptable answers that makes it usable more than anything. SO isn't perfect in this regard, of course, and I could rant for a long time about its failings, but it has something going for it on that front. For "discuss this link" stuff I think both vBulletin and Reddit have benefits. I think Reddit works better at scale (with the disclaimers about vote brigading, popularity contests etc); vBulletin at a certain level of traffic just becomes "unwieldy Discord". But for smaller communities, and general topic discussion, I think vBulletin has some benefits over both chat apps and Reddit because it maintains a single continuous discussion but also allows more easily for longer posts with more formatting. (None of this is mutually exclusive, hence why a lot of the few still living forums have Discords or sometimes even IRCs as well). I think even for vBulletin style there are some things I'd like changed though: notifications for direct quotes, @username mentions, and tags/filters. Floating is also useful. This is a feature I haven't seen since the Nintendo forums over a decade ago, it allows users to pin threads. Basically a sticky local to your account. Subscriptions work well but, at least for me, encourage megathreads and only browsing from your bookmarks. Floats give you the benefits of following specific threads, but also keep you aware of new ones popping up. I think if you added the different styles, with updates and modifications, and let admins choose what worked for individual subforums (or even users choosing for individual threads depending on the site and userbase, though that'd get messy fast) you could get something pretty nice. Don't put infinite scroll in though it's literally the worst web invention and I want it to die. Don't do gamification or rep either.
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Oct 14, 2019 21:01
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JawnV6 posted:the best part of atwood's visit was him latching onto forums user Victor as the sole voice of reason amongst a bunch of nay-sayers Oh man that's a name I haven't heard in a while.
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Oct 14, 2019 21:04
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The Slack thing where there’s a linear stream of conversation, but you can fork off a thread if it’s interesting, but deep forking is discouraged (impossible?) doesn’t totally suck, although it’s pretty easy to not realize that interesting discussion is happening in a thread.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:41
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There's no nested threading in slack, and you can tick a box when replying to a thread to also send it to the channel
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Oct 15, 2019 00:20
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Discourse is fine once you disable all the gamification and turn back it into just a regular forum.
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Oct 15, 2019 00:46
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Linear Zoetrope posted:From what I understand, Monica cannot release any transcripts. Not like, because it's against some NDA or something but like... physically cannot. The discussion purportedly happened in the Teacher's Lounge, basically a coaching/discussion chatroom for mods which she well... couldn't access after she was terminated. Monica says that most of the discussion occurred via a series of emails, between herself and 1 to a handful of other people. She could certainly release those.
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Oct 15, 2019 03:27
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holy poo poo, i wish this type of poo poo would never happen. it makes me sad monica seems like a good person, from what little i know. maybe she went wrong on an issue, maybe not, but it doesn't seem like her heart was in the wrong place. this bullshit genuinely depresses me
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Oct 15, 2019 04:21
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Soricidus posted:Hot take: abolish all gendered pronouns imo. There’s no reason why we encode someone’s gender identity in grammar apart from tradition, and that’s the same tradition that inflicted the lie of binary gender on us in the first place so gently caress tradition. I disagree. For me as a trans woman, being called "she" is extremely affirming and being referred to by gender neutral language feels like a microaggresion denying my identify.
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Oct 15, 2019 04:51
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jit bull transpile posted:I disagree. For me as a trans woman, being called "she" is extremely affirming and being referred to by gender neutral language feels like a microaggresion denying my identify. that makes sense, and i hope my previous post didn't seem like a microaggresion (or any kind of aggression) i just feel like monica's issue with pronouns was maybe misplaced and lacking consideration, but not hostile. please tell me if i'm missing something
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Oct 15, 2019 05:21
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jit bull transpile posted:I disagree. For me as a trans woman, being called "she" is extremely affirming and being referred to by gender neutral language feels like a microaggresion denying my identify. I don't want to discredit anything you're saying here, I just have a completely unrelated question if you don't mind: what programming language is the text under your avatar?
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Oct 15, 2019 06:32
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