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Boot and Rally posted:Have you checked out glassdoor or an h1b database to get any idea of what to expect? Do you know anyone making 150 in that job? It sounds like you haven't done your homework: you don't have any idea what they will say and don't know what you'd ask for to take that job. Not true, I just didnt think the amounts were relevant to my questions. Questions were has anyone insisted on the company naming a number before proceeding and how did it go? If it comes up again I think Ill just ask but was curious if anyone had advice. Keep in mind im going through this only for information and practice interviewing. Second was hr actually gave me a number, although it was their example of an unreasonable amount. Im not sure if that means thats actually their high end or if they are 10-20% or more below that. If it does help a solid market rate would be 110-130. 145 is upper 75% which is why I had 150 as my biggest reasonable number.
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Oct 16, 2019 15:26
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Keystoned posted:Not true, I just didnt think the amounts were relevant to my questions. Keystoned posted:Also when I declined to give them a number they said it was just to make sure my expectations werent too high and then they said “for instance, 150 we could never get to”. What if anything does that mean other than the obvious? Did they give away their high end - if so is what would you guess that at? I was asking if you could dig up any information on what that company paid, not market. Good on you for doing research though. I haven't tried getting a confirmed number before the company is ready to offer. The reasoning is the same as why I don't give a number. When I want this information I treat it just like any other interview and go through the motions. In my estimation, any number they give you that isn't at the end of an interview is bullshit. Especially some nebulous "we won't go this high" statement. You hear $149,999 and they hear $100,000. What they hope to do is get a few people in that meet their needs and have one give away that they'd take the job for $120k and then offer the rest of you around that. I think the best you're going to get if you force the issue is a pay band which will be wide enough to not mean anything. What does them giving you a number get you that you don't already know from research? If wages are rising and published numbers are thus low, or something?
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Oct 16, 2019 17:54
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Boot and Rally posted:I think the best you're going to get if you force the issue is a pay band which will be wide enough to not mean anything. What does them giving you a number get you that you don't already know from research? If wages are rising and published numbers are thus low, or something? Im mostly treating this as a learning experience to see what i can/should be doing and what it feels like.
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Oct 16, 2019 21:34
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Zauper posted:FWIW, I've never heard of it working this way - but absolutely you should talk to a lawyer familiar with the precedent and ask them. For a non-compete, continued employment, in most jurisdictions, is not sufficient consideration - so employment is not a term of the non-compete. Here's a lawyer's blog post that says that, but also that it might make it easier to beat. Yeah that's where the state-by-state thing came in. My employer in CT had NCEs for everyone but when they tried to enforce it on employees they laid-off en mass, a court shot it down for at least one guy I worked with. Fired for cause might be different. IANAL and I am almost certainly not in the same state as the OP because NCEs are all but unenforceable here. I need to move to whatever state allows them, put one that blocks all in-state competitors, and then immediately cut people to salaried < min-wage after they relocate. Heck yeah, a new era of indentured servitude! 
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Oct 16, 2019 21:36
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I recently got messaged by a recruiter from my old employer asking if I’d want to come back. I actually might like that - the employees are better trained and seem to be more diligent and I have a good relationship with my old manager there. I left because I got a bump from 90 to 110k at my current employer for the same title and the same responsibilities. I’m at 112k now, been told I should receive a promotion next month, which may bring me to 120-130k, or they may try to give me less. Either way, I’m pretty comfortable where I am, so I’m not going to jump ship for no increase in pay. The benefits work out to be almost the same, it’s remote/travel, so no commute involved. I’m not going to waste my time by interviewing/taking to anyone if I know I’m not going to get a big enough increase to go back. Thinking about anchoring high, telling them it’s going to take 150k to bring me back knowing they’ll never go that high, but may counter somewhere lower that would be acceptable. Or, I may just blow it off if they try to counter too low. Is that stupid? It’s also only been about 15 months since I left. It’s well known that one will job hop in this industry for increasing pay, but is 15 months too short?
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Oct 16, 2019 21:57
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I'm getting mixed messages from your post. It starts with "I like my ex-employer better than my current one" then off the cuff you say "I'm pretty happy where I am" but then the rest of the post is "how do I thread the needle to get more money from my ex-employer to jump back" which sounds more like you would really rather like to go back and the only question is how much money can you get out of them. Your best play is to psych yourself by any means necessary into believing you love life at your current gig and would only consider jumping back if a very significant increase were on offer. Say that, believe it, and if they don't come back with an offer for a very significant increase, say no thanks, shrug it off and move on. Don't even give them a number. Just tell them "I'm always willing to listen but it would take a very attractive offer to get my attention right now" and leave it at that. They need you more than you need them. That has to be your attitude--cordial, professional, upbeat, but very clear that you have the upper hand here. They may flatly say no. In which case they were never going to make you a good offer anyway, they were only sniffing around to see if they could get you back on the cheap, so you lose nothing by shrugging it off and staying put.
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Oct 16, 2019 23:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'm getting mixed messages from your post. It starts with "I like my ex-employer better than my current one" then off the cuff you say "I'm pretty happy where I am" but then the rest of the post is "how do I thread the needle to get more money from my ex-employer to jump back" which sounds more like you would really rather like to go back and the only question is how much money can you get out of them. Yeah, sorry about the crap explanation. What I meant to say was my former employer has better quality employees, I left on a good note and I like my former manager, but I'm not going back without a significant increase over what I'm expecting from the supposedly upcoming promotion. I already believe that, so I don't need to fake it too much for them to believe that I'm perfectly happy here. I can use that wording and keep a number out of it. I don't expect them to offer what I want and staying put wouldn't bother me. I just didn't want to have to go through the whole multiple interview process and keep salary negotiation out of it until the very end when they lowballed it and wouldn't come up anywhere close to where I want them to be. Your suggestion sounds much better than what I was suggesting, so I'll give it a shot and see what they say!
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Oct 17, 2019 00:12
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Cacafuego posted:Yeah, sorry about the crap explanation. What I meant to say was my former employer has better quality employees, I left on a good note and I like my former manager, but I'm not going back without a significant increase over what I'm expecting from the supposedly upcoming promotion. I already believe that, so I don't need to fake it too much for them to believe that I'm perfectly happy here.
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Oct 17, 2019 00:54
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Dik Hz posted:What's market and what are you looking for? You'll need those two numbers to make a good decision. Unfortunately, the market can vary wildly depending on location, experience in particular therapeutic areas and credentials. I'm trying to sniff that out and while I'm at 112k currently, I have less than 5 years of experience, which would put me close to the top for the current level with room to move to the next grade. I also know people who have jumped ship at my current level for more than 130k, so I don't know for sure. I figured I was at the top of my grade anyway, unless I was going to go 1099, which I've read could be 175-250k, probably also region and niche dependent. I'm looking for at least 130k to make the jump. Less than that and it's not worth it.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:26
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Cacafuego posted:Unfortunately, the market can vary wildly depending on location, experience in particular therapeutic areas and credentials. I'm trying to sniff that out and while I'm at 112k currently, I have less than 5 years of experience, which would put me close to the top for the current level with room to move to the next grade. I also know people who have jumped ship at my current level for more than 130k, so I don't know for sure. I figured I was at the top of my grade anyway, unless I was going to go 1099, which I've read could be 175-250k, probably also region and niche dependent. I'm looking for at least 130k to make the jump. Less than that and it's not worth it.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:36
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Dik Hz posted:Your market is local. Most people don't change regions for jobs. If people move locally for $130k, your market rate is $130k. 1099 at $175k is about $130k, so there you go. If people in your market move jobs to make $130k+, the market rate for your role is $130k. A $150k ask is a good anchor, but you should probably figure out what you're willing to take in the "win" column and accept a counter in that range. Got it, that works for me. 130k would be a win for me, so we'll see what happens. I'm fine staying, or taking that much more to go. I suppose if they really want me bad enough the 15 month job hopping won't look too bad, right? If they ask why I want to come back, is it not smart to say "you sought me out"?
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Oct 17, 2019 01:55
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Cacafuego posted:Got it, that works for me. 130k would be a win for me, so we'll see what happens. I'm fine staying, or taking that much more to go. I suppose if they really want me bad enough the 15 month job hopping won't look too bad, right? If they ask why I want to come back, is it not smart to say "you sought me out"? 15 months is the sweet spot where you've been gone enough to miss you for returning to a previous employer. Don't lowball yourself over that time period. They reached out to you.
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Oct 17, 2019 02:08
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Dik Hz posted:15 months is the sweet spot where you've been gone enough to miss you for returning to a previous employer. Don't lowball yourself over that time period. They reached out to you. Oh, I wont. I may be frustrated by my current place and like the former, but it's not enough to make me go back for less than what I want. Hook is set, they've already responded. I'll let it play out and let them make the first offer. The recruiter has said I come highly recommended by my former manager, so we'll see what I can milk it for.
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Oct 17, 2019 02:44
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:My BATNA is a job offer that pays substantially more about 100 miles away. I emailed the other hospital yesterday to make sure it was still valid and got back a one word reply "absolutely" so that makes me feel a lot better. To be fair there's really only one other job within 50 miles I'd want to work and I don't even know that they're hiring, so my best move here (assuming they go ahead with reducing my pay) might be just to relocate and do the two cities thing until my original non-compete expires (a two year timeline). It doesn't help that our marriage is running on fumes; I think my current employer underestimated my willingness to blow my life here up in response to them trying to snip me. I dunno all of what's going on in your life but any divorce is gonna be way more expensive than surrendering an 18k bonus.
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Oct 17, 2019 03:21
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I dunno all of what's going on in your life but any divorce is gonna be way more expensive than surrendering an 18k bonus. VERY true. But also true (however painful) that if your marriage is Not Working and eventually going to end, the sooner the better, for everyone involved. Especially if kids are involved. Don't want to get e/n in my BFC, but as a practical matter, if that's the spot he's in, right now might be the best opportunity he'll get to make a clean(ish) break and get the hell out of Iowa--his skills are in demand pretty much everywhere.
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Oct 17, 2019 04:01
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Don't you have a baby? Divorce is a hell of a lot harder with kids, doubly so if you're negotiating custody time with a nursing baby, tentuply so if you're 100 miles away trying to coparent.
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Oct 17, 2019 05:05
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I dunno all of what's going on in your life but any divorce is gonna be way more expensive than surrendering an 18k bonus. It's 18k of salary a year perpetually.
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Oct 17, 2019 13:52
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Especially if there's a kid involved, it's best to get it over with as quickly as possible, rather than draw it out and make you and your wife miserable, and the kid believe all relationships are a minefield of tension and poorly-concealed contempt. But that's more of an E/N thing, anyway.
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Oct 17, 2019 13:56
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:It's 18k of salary a year perpetually. what percentage of your total comp does this represent
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Oct 17, 2019 15:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:what percentage of your total comp does this represent 5 - 6.5% total vs. base.
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Oct 17, 2019 16:28
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look, only you have a perspective on your marriage, but it appears to me from the outside looking in that you're desperately looking for some external source to strike the killing blow rather than it just being "well it didn't work out" for mundane/normal reasons this could be very unfair, i don't know - but it seems like if you were already committed to your marriage and family that you would probably beg your employer but end up settling - because that's your realistic option that doesn't involve getting a new job 100 miles away, and you don't ~need~ the 18k. for example i would probably take an 18k pay cut (7.5%) to be home with my family every night ceteris paribus.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:11
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I think a new kid makes any marriage run on fumes because babies loving suck. I don't think we've got enough perspective on anything to provide really good advice (and it's off topic to this thread). But I do strongly believe that you're best at problem solving when you try to isolate and tackle one thing at a time. So in order: 1) Clearly communicate to your employer that this yanked income is unacceptable and you expect them to make good on it. You don't need to beg. You don't need to get up and leave. You don't need to inflict a terrible commute on yourself to get even with them. Just be really really clear and firm. 2) Stop putting any mental energy into the raise or into getting more out of your untrustworthy employer. 3) Focus on your marriage. This doesn't mean "make it work". It means put it in a sustainable position. That might mean you get counseling. It might mean you have lots of long uncomfortable conversations with your wife to solve problems. It might mean you get it back to a healthy place. It might mean divorce. But focus on pushing this problem to a resolution, without picking a particular resolution at the outset. 4) With your marriage situation resolved, return to figure out what you're going to do with employment. Either your employers took your notice to heart or they didn't. If they didn't, get set in a position to leave, then leave. You don't owe these people any professional courtesy since they backed out on their word to you, so go in whatever way is most advantageous to you. The phrase "burned bridges" will come up from someone. The bridge was burned by your employer when you made good on something and they didn't hold up their end of the bargain.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:45
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Things are continuing to slowly move forwards for me. Just got a call saying that they’re ready to make an offer and want me to fly out so we can get some face time. Question: if i’m roughly employee #100 coming into a company at the architect level and the company is profitable but pre-ipo what sort of % ownership should i be gunning for? I feel like I have an incredibly strong negotiating position and while I understand bennies and salary I’ve never negotiated ownership.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:01
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I think a new kid makes any marriage run on fumes because babies loving suck. This is true. The first big divorce spike is in the 6 months after a couple’s first child is born IIRC. This is consistent with reality (source: have 2 kids). It’s not representative of life after.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:04
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I think a new kid makes any marriage run on fumes because babies loving suck. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:look, only you have a perspective on your marriage, but it appears to me from the outside looking in that you're desperately looking for some external source to strike the killing blow rather than it just being "well it didn't work out" for mundane/normal reasons Thanks guys. I'm trying to stay level headed, but obviously I'm failing to do that. I appreciate the insight and the advice to compartmentalize problems. I've got a history of these major transition periods in my life which have (obviously) suited me pretty well up to this point but it's not as though I can just pull up stakes and jump ship. I'll keep you in the loop with how negotiations proceed.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:23
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i received an offer for a 3 month 1099 contract, potential to hire with negotiable salary at that point. how do i ask for more money and how much do i ask for? (for the 1099 position)
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Oct 17, 2019 18:58
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Edgar Allan Pwned posted:i received an offer for a 3 month 1099 contract, potential to hire with negotiable salary at that point. how do i ask for more money and how much do i ask for? (for the 1099 position) You need a lot more information for internet strangers to be able to help you at all. What kind of work is it? What level of experience and qualifications do you have? How big is the company? Where is it? Are you employed? Do you have other offers on the table? If not, why not? EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Thanks guys. I'm trying to stay level headed, but obviously I'm failing to do that. I appreciate the insight and the advice to compartmentalize problems. I've got a history of these major transition periods in my life which have (obviously) suited me pretty well up to this point but it's not as though I can just pull up stakes and jump ship. As per usual, Dwight's advice is right on the money. Good luck dude, don't let a relative pittance distract you from what's important in your life
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Oct 17, 2019 19:16
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its angular development, in columbus oh. it would be my second tech job, and the role assumes i dont know angular and they would be training me. comoany is small. probably less than 20 employees at this point.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:19
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Not a Children posted:You need a lot more information for internet strangers to be able to help you at all. What kind of work is it? What level of experience and qualifications do you have? How big is the company? Where is it? Are you employed? Do you have other offers on the table? If not, why not? All of it has been; I'm incredibly grateful for this forum of internet strangers who have given me some tough love in the past and helped me to get where I am.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:36
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Things are continuing to slowly move forwards for me. Just got a call saying that they’re ready to make an offer and want me to fly out so we can get some face time. At 100 employees and a non-exec level position this isn't a percentage of the company type conversation. It's a dollar amount of equity at current valuation. If this is typical bay area bullshit and high growth potential, that number should probably be around $500k.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:41
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Motronic posted:At 100 employees and a non-exec level position this isn't a percentage of the company type conversation. It's a dollar amount of equity at current valuation. If this is typical bay area bullshit and high growth potential, that number should probably be around $500k. Oh yeah it’d definitely be fractions of fractions of a percent- just have no clue how big those fractions typically are. That dollar amount is helpful though, thanks. Also yes I know that they should be considered effectively zero since it’s still pre-IPO. Just want to make sure I’m mentally prepared on all the different negotiating options available before I’m at the table.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:44
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Also yes I know that they should be considered effectively zero since it’s still pre-IPO. Just want to make sure I’m mentally prepared on all the different negotiating options available before I’m at the table. Good. Don't give up salary for equity, but equity is likely easy for them to give so do negotiate for it. It took me many startups before one was life changing, and I'm drat glad I kept up the practice of negotiating equity even after being left with so many folders full of valueless equity agreements.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:55
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Oh yeah it’d definitely be fractions of fractions of a percent- just have no clue how big those fractions typically are. That dollar amount is helpful though, thanks. I'd push back a bit on that -- $500k at current valuation sounds pretty insane. Depends a bit on total valuation though, to your point. If the company is only worth $50M, then 500k is 1%, and you're not going to get that as employee 100. If the company is worth $500M, then it's 0.1%, and maybe you will. That is likely around what you should be trying for... though likely won't get. We're around 65-70 employees, and there's no role for which we would hire where we'd give $500k worth of equity at current valuation. Maybe if we were bringing in a COO? But we also don't have crazy SV pre-revenue valuations, we're 'only' like 10-12x revenue.
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Oct 17, 2019 20:08
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Zauper posted:I'd push back a bit on that -- $500k at current valuation sounds pretty insane. Depends a bit on total valuation though, to your point. If the company is only worth $50M, then 500k is 1%, and you're not going to get that as employee 100. If the company is worth $500M, then it's 0.1%, and maybe you will. That is likely around what you should be trying for... though likely won't get. We're around 65-70 employees, and there's no role for which we would hire where we'd give $500k worth of equity at current valuation. Maybe if we were bringing in a COO? But we also don't have crazy SV pre-revenue valuations, we're 'only' like 10-12x revenue. This all makes sense in a reasonable world, but VC-fueled pre-IPO unicorn startup world is pants-on-head stupid with this stuff. At an "architect" level, assuming that's a pretty senior IC role, 500k of pre-IPO equity doesn't seem all that out of line as a hiring grant since there's real risk that it never materializes into anything. At the post-IPO public companies I've looked into/worked at, a similarly leveled IC is likely getting 300-500k in hire-on RSU grants (with a vesting schedule, obvs), and those have actual liquidity.
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Oct 17, 2019 20:27
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Guinness posted:This all makes sense in a reasonable world, but VC-fueled pre-IPO unicorn startup world is pants-on-head stupid with this stuff. At an "architect" level, assuming that's a pretty senior IC role, 500k of pre-IPO equity doesn't seem all that out of line as a hiring grant since there's real risk that it never materializes into anything. This is exactly why I qualified my post with "If this is typical bay area bullshit and high growth potential". I stand by that number with coming in as an architect level at this particular moment in time. I didn't choose this number randomly: I am in this space, I am a hiring manager (in an albeit now post-IPO) in this space, I have friends in this space. I know what is being offered and accepted. Zauper posted:If the company is only worth $50M, then 500k is 1%, and you're not going to get that as employee 100. If it's a 100 person company and only worth $50M you know they have zero runway and don't want to be working there. These are the crazy times we live in.
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Oct 17, 2019 20:45
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Motronic posted:This is exactly why I qualified my post with "If this is typical bay area bullshit and high growth potential". I stand by that number with coming in as an architect level at this particular moment in time. I didn't choose this number randomly: I am in this space, I am a hiring manager (in an albeit now post-IPO) in this space, I have friends in this space. I know what is being offered and accepted. Right. Sorry, I didn't see their post where they said they were bay area (are they? I thought he said PA) I am also a hiring manager (pre-IPO), high growth potential though not bay area. I know what we offer and what folks around here accept, even high level ICs. If they are profitable, then frankly they're probably not sitting on crazy SV valuations and are going to be more like a growth company. shrug.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:06
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Zauper posted:Right. Sorry, I didn't see their post where they said they were bay area (are they? I thought he said PA) I don't know, that's why I qualified the statement. And I don't know where they are, but I'm in PA an pulled this off - where you live doesn't matter so much as who you're working for and how they are funded (a bay area company being funded from Sand Hill Road in my case).
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Oct 17, 2019 21:09
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Partially have it right- I live in PA but work remote for SV companies
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Oct 17, 2019 21:36
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Partially have it right- I live in PA but work remote for SV companies Same. It's been a good setup.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:02
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PA is a great place to live, the weather sucks and the roads are horrific, but at least taxes are sky high
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Oct 17, 2019 22:49
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